Coronavirus / COVID-19

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

For those interested, her's the NHS advice: https://www.gov.uk/government/public...d-19-infection

Fever or "persistent" cough and you stay home from now on, for a week.

[Viking]

Not a fan of gallows humour, then?

I read that post rather differently, though I think my reply works one way or another..

[Kurando]

With a mortality rate of 1-2% if properly treated (big if) the disease will probably kill someone you know this year.

I sincerely doubt it, but even if that is the case: the death of one person I care about is not nearly as concerning as the 99.9% of the rest of people I care about being oblivious to having their entire way of life decimated by what is essentially an opportunistic experiment in social control.

[Kurando]

That's why measures have to be swift, and draconian if necessary. I don't give a damn about your civil liberties if it means thousands of lives can be saved.

...You believe that your civil liberties are being compromised to save peoples lives from a virus?? Didn't they blatantly scam you in the wake of 9/11 into believing that your civil liberties were being compromised to save peoples lives from terrorists? -Hindsight much??

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with.

[rory_20_uk]

I thought that the Chief Medical Officer and Chief Scientific Officer set out their reasons in a pretty sensible way - how for example shutting schools is highly likely to be merely damaging with children likely to quickly be seeing each other and in many cases sent to be looked after by the grandparents who should be quarantined; how unless almost all air traffic is stopped then again this has a very limited affect and causes vast disruption. Boris also let the experts do their job on a highly technical matter.

I'm not an expert on this whatsoever, but their reasons for not having taken actions made sense.

The Journalists then excelled demonstrating that they've studied no science since they were about 15 and have far more interest in penny dreadful headlines than booooring epidemiological modelling.

Of course, there are in the whole of the UK a few thousand ICU beds and possibly at best tens of thousands of ventilators so even ignoring staffing issues and illness we could be way short of worst-case predictions for the system to be constrained.

So... I guess I'll be working from home for several months to come then.

[Montmorency]

This is the day Joe Biden became president.

Katie Porter.

Legendary joke: "The World Health Organization has announced that dogs cannot contract Covid-19. Dogs previously held in quarantine can now be released. To be clear, WHO let the dogs out."

I sincerely doubt it, but even if that is the case: the death of one person I care about is not nearly as concerning as the 99.9% of the rest of people I care about being oblivious to having their entire way of life decimated by what is essentially an opportunistic experiment in social control.

What civil liberties are you concerned about, specifically?

If you're worried about emergency powers, the government has already arrogated those powers generations ago; a Chinese-style response would probably be legal. If you're worried about a disruption to your way of life, then sorry to break it to you but the virus will disrupt your way of life regardless of state action.

[rory_20_uk]

...You believe that your civil liberties are being compromised to save peoples lives from a virus?? Didn't they blatantly scam you in the wake of 9/11 into believing that your civil liberties were being compromised to save peoples lives from terrorists? -Hindsight much??

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with.

I don't think that the USA needs any reason to pry further into its citizens:

Border Patrol can stop and detain for any reason up to 100 miles in from a border. That's almost 2/3 of the entire population right there.
Anything digital can be taken either with or without the rubber-stamp court warrant.
Most police cars have automatic number plate recognition - which can be cross referenced with your cell phone to track.
Riots are responded to with police armed with the sort of equipment that would fight a decent war - except the police have far less training than the military.

If there was a time the government was scared of the People, that is at least 100 years ago.

[Kurando]

I don't think that the USA needs any reason to pry further into its citizens...

In a sense I agree. As all of these circumstances that you mentioned are firmly in place as a result of the Patriot Act et al the government now more than anything needs to know what it's citizens will do about it if those restrictions are put into action. What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it? -Sadly the answer is that we will do nothing, and worse still, that yet again, the vast majority can be bamboozled into thinking that it's all for our own good at the drop of a hat. We are indeed screwed, but I dare say it's not because of COVID-19, that part is just a convenience.

[Montmorency]

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were?

This all sounds cranky.

[ReluctantSamurai]

@Kurando

You know, for someone who requested a wake-up call after all this boring shit is over, you seem awfully intent on making an imprint on this discussion.....just sayin'

the death of one person I care about is not nearly as concerning as the 99.9% of the rest of people I care about being oblivious to having their entire way of life decimated by what is essentially an opportunistic experiment in social control.

Jesus, I'd hate to be one of those 50 or so in your circle of friends/family

Look around. You think that this whole situation is a fabrication simply to gain social control?? When the last infected aerosol droplet has settled, there's going to be hell to pay. Heads of state and leaders of medical emergency responders are going to lose their jobs.

It's all just another convenient lever to pry with

You'll get no argument from me about government intelligence agencies taking advantage of 9/11 to expand their powers, and increase their influence on our lives. But you are comparing apples with oranges. The focus after 9/11 became us vs them; a wartime fabrication that pits Western nations against Islamic nations. A virus doesn't care about religion, doesn't care about politics, doesn't give a damn about anyone's civil liberties. They just do what they do...replicate themselves in as many willing hosts as they can.

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it? -Sadly the answer is that we will do nothing, and worse still, that yet again, the vast majority can be bamboozled into thinking that it's all for our own good at the drop of a hat

You obviously haven't been paying attention to how this virus works. It absolutely loves (yes, I know, viruses don't have feelings) large, very crowded areas like sports arenas, subway trains, airplanes, cruise ships, etc., etc., etc., because it can infect someone who may not show symptoms for as long as 14 days, if at all. And if you even bothered to read the piece from Bedford labs, you might understand that 1 infection becomes two and then four and so on, until you have thousands before you even know it.

If there had been an outright, and total travel ban placed on countries where the virus was located, then Patient 0 would never have made it to Seattle, and then gone to California, etc., etc., etc. Too bad if you feel like your liberties were interfered with, a whole lot of people in Washington State and elsewhere might still be alive right now. And the instant the virus got here, or wherever you are from, all sporting events are cancelled; Disney World---closed; all schools from K-1 to college---either closed or moved online. If an area starts showing large clusters of infections, quarantine or even total lock-down. Sound familiar? Yep, that's how the Chinese got it under control (at least for the time being), and the scenario is now being repeated in Italy. Look what happened in S. Korea. The government decides not to impinge on the right to have large religious gatherings; one infected person in the Shincheonji Church of Jesus congregates with a thousand or so members of their sect on 18 Feb, and by 23 Feb there were hundreds of new cases and something on the order of 100 new ones every day. By 11 March there were 7,700 confirmed cases of the virus with around three quarters of that total occurring in Daegu and about 63 percent directly linked to the Shinchonji religious group. Do the math. If religious gatherings had had a temporary ban, there would have been over 3,600 less cases. Same story in Iran. No ban on religious gatherings, no postponement of elections (because the powers that be wanted a large voter turnout to legitimize their brand). And look what happened. As of 15 Feb, there were no reported cases (although the virus was likely already there). In less than one month (as of 10 March), there are 8,042 reported infections (very likely grossly under-reported), and 291 deaths. New cases are coming in a a rate of almost 900 per day. Talk to all the families who lost loved ones about civil liberties. You just might find them willing to trade a few weeks of quarantine to have them in the land of the living still.

So....to hell with civil liberties in a situation like world is experiencing right now. Want to increase your chances of not getting sick or dying? Stay home and, you know, actually have a conversation, face-to-face with friends and loved ones instead doing face-time.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

"More than 125,000 people have been diagnosed with Covid-19 in 118 countries around the world, according to the World Health Organization. The total number of deaths is more than 4,600."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51862347

This is just not OK, this is not "fear porn".

[a completely inoffensive name]

What if they take away freedom of association & Disneyland & team sports & Hollywood and all remnants of the things that made us who we once were? What will we do about it?

LOL, bro my city sets cars on fire and riots every time the Lakers win. YOu think people are gonna wake up one day and accept no more sports?

Bruh, where is your prepper bunker and 50 gallon drum of mac and cheese? I can repair your water filtration system, so you need me when society collapses.

[Montmorency]

Samurai, sorry to say but North Korea is almost certainly affected. They have a lot of labor commuting to and from China. One take.

Good article about the dilemma of social costs in school closures, particularly for a big city like NYC. It's a no-win scenario. I do hope the mayor and governor have a plan to provision services to all the displaced kids when it does finally happen. You're going to see problems if half the kids are infecting their grandparents and half the rest are tying down parents from the workforce. How to keep healthcare workers on the job when their kids have nowhere to go is another issue.

[Kurando]

This all sounds cranky.

Then I will put it bluntly: ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable. That goes for a government here, there, or anywhere. For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was.

Funny but, I keep thinking back to the psychologist who more than a century ago invented the concept of Kindergarden. His though process was that if you surround a child with pretty toys and frivolity for the first 6 years of it's life that the child will be powerless to question authority later in life. We are proving him right and acting like a society of impotent sheep whenever authority tests those waters.

I don't want you to think I am not concerned for my circle of 50 close friends or for any of you guys, on the contrary, I am deeply concerned, just not about the potential impact of the virus itself. As I said in the first post "if" I lose friends and neighbours I will take the virus part seriously, until then this whole situation stinks to high heaven of something else. Something concrete which has had ongoing impact on all of our lives, not a sudden impact on them.

[Montmorency]

Then I will put it bluntly: ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable. That goes for a government here, there, or anywhere. For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was.

What exactly is your theory, then? Describe it, step-by-step. Otherwise you may as well be saying that this pandemic is just an opportunity for mice to eat all our cheese. Lay out your theory and explain the steps.

Funny but, I keep thinking back to the psychologist who more than a century ago invented the concept of Kindergarden. His though process was that if you surround a child with pretty toys and frivolity for the first 6 years of it's life that the child will be powerless to question authority later in life. We are proving him right and acting like a society of impotent sheep whenever authority tests those waters.

That's not what Kindergarten was or is.

I don't want you to think I am not concerned for my circle of 50 close friends or for any of you guys, on the contrary, I am deeply concerned, just not about the potential impact of the virus itself. As I said in the first post "if" I lose friends and neighbours I will take the virus part seriously, until then this whole situation stinks to high heaven of something else. Something concrete which has had ongoing impact on all of our lives, not sudden impact on them.

If you're taking it seriously when your friends or family are dying then it is too late. That's like saying you'll take the threat of war seriously only when there are foreign boots in the capital.

Look at it objectively: if there is a threat, when is the time to begin addressing it? If it helps, start from the point where the virus is a serious threat and could be exploited by a nefarious government somehow. What then?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

LOL, bro my city sets cars on fire and riots every time the Lakers win. YOu think people are gonna wake up one day and accept no more sports?

Bruh, where is your prepper bunker and 50 gallon drum of mac and cheese? I can repair your water filtration system, so you need me when society collapses.

Pah - I'm probably the only one of you who can shoot straight and maintain his IW - you wanna be in my bunker.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Pah - I'm probably the only one of you who can shoot straight and maintain his IW - you wanna be in my bunker.

I'm an American. Of course I've shot before. Nothing further than 500 meters though. And I am terrible at skeet shooting, so don't ask me to hunt birds.

But I do want to be in your bunker. Mainly because California earthquakes turn bunkers into cement coffins over here.

[ReluctantSamurai]

For the record I'm not saying the virus is a hoax, just that it's overblown and moreover that it's an opportunity for governments which is right in front of our eyes is being ruthlessly exploited just like 9/11 was

Ok, I'll bite. exactly who is doing the exploiting and exactly who are these nebulous opportunities going to benefit? So far, all your accusations have been rather vague as to specifics....so ditto what Monty said

[Kurando]

What exactly is your theory, then? Describe it, step-by-step?

I already have at length, perhaps it would be better if I simplified it:

Fact: Civil liberties were decimated as legal concepts during and immediately following the 9/11 hysteria.
Theory: Civil liberties are being decimated in actuality during and immediately following the COVID-19 hysteria.

[Montmorency]

I already have at length, perhaps it would be better if I simplified it:

Fact: Civil liberties were decimated as legal concepts during and immediately following the 9/11 hysteria.
Theory: Civil liberties are being decimated in actuality during and immediately following the COVID-19 hysteria.

How, exactly?

We can name specific consequences of the 9/11 hysteria: Devastating wars, increased surveillance, police abuses, torture, unchecked executive war powers, less social trust...

And these were predicted at the time by astute observers, so you have no excuse in vagueness.

And how would you approach the scenario where your fears about civil liberties dovetail with a virus that is in fact a serious threat?

[Kurando]

Ok, I'll bite. exactly who is doing the exploiting and exactly who are these nebulous opportunities going to benefit? So far, all your accusations have been rather vague as to specifics....so ditto what Monty said

I have no idea and I'm not in a position to even speculate, but similarly if a stranger walks up and starts punching me in the face; it's still self-evident that it is happening even if I can't identify who they are or what their motive is.

[Kurando]

And these were predicted at the time by astute observers, so you have no excuse in vagueness.

And how would you approach the scenario where your fears about civil liberties dovetail with a virus that is in fact a serious threat?

I don't need and excuse for vagueness any more than you need an excuse for not reading what I already communicated:

(the) ability for a government to predict with certainty how it's population will react under a situation of martial law is beyond invaluable

[ReluctantSamurai]

I have no idea and I'm not in a position to even speculate

That's what I thought

[Montmorency]

Not to pile on, but this is useful reading.
https://harpers.org/archive/1964/11/...ican-politics/

[Hooahguy]

I dont know how things are going where you guys all live, but at least where I am, there seems to have been a massive run on the grocery stores today. Many places essentially cleaned out. Had I known this I probably would have stocked up. At least I managed to nab some disinfectant spray on Amazon, so much is sold out its insane.

On the medical front, the lack of easy testing is very concerning. I get pretty bad allergies that manifests as a scratchy throat, runny nose, and a mild cough. So of course I am very concerned. Seems like the only way to see if I have COVID-19 is taking my temperature and making sure its still in the normal range, which it is for now. Pandemics are fun.

[Kurando]

That's what I thought

Okay genius, have it your way then: the government, just as it always has, only has your wellbeing in mind, just like when it saved you from Osama and Sadam. It has no agenda other than to protect you and it wants you to feel free to stand up and protest whenever you feel you are wronged. If the government tells you to do something you are free not to obey, (it's not like there aren't new laws against obeying or anything) but hey, the government only has your best interest in mind. Haven't they proven that time and time again? Celebrate, you have more freedom now than at any time in our history. Right? Right?

-The noose is tightening my friends, with a bag over your head so you can't see the gallows and a whistling in your ear so you can't sense the drop.

[Gilrandir]

Sure, if we concomitantly rename the Ukraine thread to "Putin will kill all Ukrainians".

The thread mentioned by you falls utterly short of this one here as to the degree of hysterics and panic-mongering. At least in the Ukraine thread no one suggested stockpiling cereals and canned products. So, keep contributing to apocalypsetoday.com.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I dont know how things are going where you guys all live, but at least where I am, there seems to have been a massive run on the grocery stores today. Many places essentially cleaned out. Had I known this I probably would have stocked up. At least I managed to nab some disinfectant spray on Amazon, so much is sold out its insane.

On the medical front, the lack of easy testing is very concerning. I get pretty bad allergies that manifests as a scratchy throat, runny nose, and a mild cough. So of course I am very concerned. Seems like the only way to see if I have COVID-19 is taking my temperature and making sure its still in the normal range, which it is for now. Pandemics are fun.

Stock up on allergy medicine now, like today.

Double check your amazon purchase, scammers are selling goods at normal price with 50-100 dollar shipping costs.

Water will keep running so don't worry too much about bottled water, but basic emergency supply is a gallon per person per day.

Go for frozen vegetables and other canned goods since that is what will become scarce when production drops.
Toilet paper is gone cause people are assholes but you can still use napkins, paper towels etc and dispose of the waste in trash.

Buy a large bag of rice and a large bag of beans, basic spices that can give you protein and carbs and get stretched out.

Please take care

[ReluctantSamurai]

but hey, the government only has your best interest in mind. Haven't they proven that time and time again?

"They" is still vague as hell. I know who "the" government is in my country. What government are you referring to? And in the US it's not simply the politicians on Capital Hill (or in each states capital), but the unwritten pact between those very same politico's, bankers, big energy, pharmaceuticals, etc., etc., etc. So in your world-view, who is profiting from your perceived fear-mongering?

If the government tells you to do something you are free not to obey

I agree....except where my civil disobedience puts others at risk. In this case, it's a significant number of others, and it can lead to deaths. If a government cannot put a stop to that kind of civil disobedience, then we have nothing but anarchy.

It's been a fun go, but I'm not much for lengthy discussions about politics. Sides rarely, if ever, agree, and a lot of bloviating takes place for no good purpose. It's been fun, tho'......

On the medical front, the lack of easy testing is very concerning

If Swampville is here in the States, then heads are going to roll over this at some point down the road. Monty's earlier post about testing per capita is very telling.

[Montmorency]

The thread mentioned by you falls utterly short of this one here as to the degree of hysterics and panic-mongering. At least in the Ukraine thread no one suggested stockpiling cereals and canned products. So, keep contributing to apocalypsetoday.com.

To make a general point, it's recommended to have 1-2 weeks of food stored in case of emergency. Also phrased as supplies for sheltering in place up to 2 weeks, as in this federal document titled Если завтра война

I'm confident Ukraine's emergency services make similar recommendations. Check.