Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Cape90]

In short, I don't think Sleep is thought processing like wolf would in their shoes. From what I have seen, I believe their thoughts come naturally

[Dobby]

when it comes to this list Dobby

I know but that post just seemed weh the way you wrote it lol

[Dobby]

Fwiw I do agree sleep looks towny and I prolly won't solve the game based on that list, was just an interesting one coming from a flipped wolf

[Newcomb]

I have no read on Ladd but probably should come up with something. Cuth I think can be town, Monstr I think can be a wolf. Mostly b/c his ISO sucks a lot and by sucks a lot I mean it is entirely too short AND filled with things that read like they're spicy for the sake of being spicy, not actually things he believes in.

Think this is a decent look for HK; the self awareness to point out the lack of read on a partner in the same sentence you're distancing from a second partner is a little much to imagine as being a real thing.

[Newcomb]

Hm this a villagy post

Not sure how much I want to read into this but the flat response to sleep's big wall is like... ehh I was gonna say +villa for sleep. Maybe it is a little. I'm just not sure how much I should read into any of monstr's posts given what happened. Like you can't really ascribe normal wolf agenda/valuation/thinking to someone to blew up like that and clearly had some stuff going on.

[Newcomb]

I've gone back and forth on sunbae a fair bit this game but ultimately I think that sunbae as a villager is much more likely to post giant swathes of stream-of-consciousness type posts that just sort of explain what he's feeling at any given moment in the the thread. Contrast this to him as a wolf where I'm pretty sure he's more liable to just say whatever random crap gets any villager launched.

I liked cuthilius' exchange saying that newcomb had a rather tepid take, thought it was kind of bold

Sleep's last post was good + I liked the incredulity that they gave when they came right back at me for saying their posts were wolfy. I mean sure a wolf could easily say "no I don't see why you think that's wolfy" but I feel like most wolves actually have a level of awareness of their posts that makes them more inclined to react to someone saying "you're wolfy" with "yea ok"

Zack I feel like generally tries to ignore me as a wolf but that's like a super thin read

I do feel like this is +v for sleep. Given you have a flipped wolf talking about a confirmed v in Sunbae here, just like, the way he explains it, the length of the paragraph, the cadence of it, is very similar to what he does in the 3rd paragraph for sleep.

[Zack]

talk to me about this?

the ender and ladd back and forth never had any real bite to it imo, I think it was just distancing/theater. They both found excuses to move off to other targets which they pushed much harder (ladd --> sleep, ender --> newcomb).

I think newcomb is probably a villager, in which case ender looks pretty bad. Him and ladd sussed each other, but ender found a way to go super hard in the paint focusing on newcomb with a progression that didn't seem particularly believable to me.

Alive: (13/17)
1. zack
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
7. Newcomb
9. EnderWiggin
10. Sunbae
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt


9. EnderWiggin
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

Zack, Sunbae - innocent children

cuth, rask - not really worth considering today imo (especially rask with the monstr interactions)

benneh, newcomb, sleep - not very interested in going here today either

monty, roro, cape, HK - possible wolves but not worth pursuing yet, non-trivial reasons to think they are town

katze - talked about this a little already, sunbae seemed to agree with this placement, some nice posts but some sketch stuff too, can't take them off the table

ender - the person who is left and I don't think has been villagy, sorry cuth

[Zack]

ignore that second grouping of names with the numbers, I copied the playerlist and was eliminating names as I moved down, forgot to delete before posting

[Zack]

I really don't trust monty at all for the record

need more from him

[Dobby]

the ender and ladd back and forth never had any real bite to it imo, I think it was just distancing/theater. They both found excuses to move off to other targets which they pushed much harder (ladd --> sleep, ender --> newcomb).

I think newcomb is probably a villager, in which case ender looks pretty bad. Him and ladd sussed each other, but ender found a way to go super hard in the paint focusing on newcomb with a progression that didn't seem particularly believable to me.

Alive: (13/17)
1. zack
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
7. Newcomb
9. EnderWiggin
10. Sunbae
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt


9. EnderWiggin
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

Zack, Sunbae - innocent children

cuth, rask - not really worth considering today imo (especially rask with the monstr interactions)

benneh, newcomb, sleep - not very interested in going here today either

monty, roro, cape, HK - possible wolves but not worth pursuing yet, non-trivial reasons to think they are town

katze - talked about this a little already, sunbae seemed to agree with this placement, some nice posts but some sketch stuff too, can't take them off the table

ender - the person who is left and I don't think has been villagy, sorry cuth

actually yes i agree with most of this (can i get a two worder on why you are IC because i prolly missed that unless it was a joke)

im clearly ic as well

cape i want to look into again, same with monty which is the one ive looked into the least. HK ive talked about. ender i had a lot of +es yesterday but i cant remember them today. Katze is a tough one tbh, i liked them in the newc thing but the rest of their posts have just existed and looked alright and i havent found anything thats stood out (i still have several pages ive just skipped reading that ill deal with tomorrow hopefully)

[Zack]

bruh

I claimed town backup and it has been mentioned ITT a bunch of times

[Zack]

Newcomb wagon - Ender/katze/Sleep - upper-null (Sleep might trend down, or lock clear if NC scum)
Sunbae upper-null
Dobby, Cape, HK, NC null
Zack, Csargo, Dolby lower-null
Nebbie scum


Cuth, I think I'll lock ya for a couple days, but not permanently given how you discussed ladd's slot throughout the day. Winston, Rask, you get a day pass, and probably a lock clear if NC is scum. Hopefully Star Trek II is reprising, except with only the good parts. It's hard to believe, but not a single one of you was in Star Trek II (though HK was probably aware of it, and he participated in the Mario 2 debacle).

Nebbie, I believe you could be the Mafia Stalker now.

Zack, are you sure you're not with Csargo? Although I do note that while I was slanking, ladd offered some kind of wack analysis about me being a "perfectly competent wolf" supposedly based on having read all my games or something - and you correctly identified this as townspewing me (see my walls).

It's is extremely likely that there was at least one other maf among the many protowagons around EOD, and potentially even among Newcomb or Rask. Overlooking D1 scum multiwagons has killed a successful town more than once in my relatively-recent experience. And with this many competing wagons, it's at least 95%, the details of which will always have to be guessed when forming plausible wagonomics associations moving forward.

@ both Zack and HK: Zack, in Mass Effect you hosted as Dolby was consensus scum-read and sacrificed (Logic sub). HK, you were town with me in Mario 2 when Dolby subbed in late onto a winning Mafia team and easily sealed the deal.
Figure out if he's clearable today pl0x.

Anyway, for doing all the things and ranking Zack/Ladd/Newcomb highly, Vote: Nebbie

Let the anointed please suicide Newcomb today, unless you're maf. It provides excellent info on Sleep, katze, Winston, and Rask at a minimum.

****

I expected Cuth to die, but OK.

lumps dolby in with two confirmed villas (me, csargo) and a probable one (benneh) then says to bomb newcomb and never really expands on nor pushes the dolby thing at all.

the section encouraging everyone to think the wagons were w/w/v seems more like agenda-pushing than a genuine thought? I mean he clears rask without even considering that rask was a wolf wagon, even though he spends a paragraph talking about multiple wolf wagons being probable and wants to bomb newcomb into the stone age.

the reason for voting benneh seems silly, me and newcomb hadn't even flipped, talk about jumping to conclusions.

worth noting monty shouldn't really be getting credit for ladd vote, he tried to unvote but it was past the deadline

he kinda just seems like a wolf to me?

[Zack]

lumps dolby in with two confirmed villas (me, csargo) and a probable one (benneh) then says to bomb newcomb and never really expands on nor pushes the dolby thing at all.

the section encouraging everyone to think the wagons were w/w/v seems more like agenda-pushing than a genuine thought? I mean he clears rask without even considering that rask was a wolf wagon, even though he spends a paragraph talking about multiple wolf wagons being probable and wants to bomb newcomb into the stone age.

the reason for voting benneh seems silly, me and newcomb hadn't even flipped, talk about jumping to conclusions.

worth noting monty shouldn't really be getting credit for ladd vote, he tried to unvote but it was past the deadline

he kinda just seems like a wolf to me?

without even considering that rask could have been a wolf wagon*

edited by way of post

[Zack]

I had Monstr lower-null.



That's where they belong, except the heroes of the day (Rask and Cuth).

like from monty's POV, rask was a wagon against ladd (wolf) and newcomb (who monty seems to think is a wolf) and even expressed he didn't want to vote ladd and was basically doing it out of survival. monty spent time encouraging everyone to consider the possibility of multiple wolves being wagoned

but monty just ... blithely clears rask?

seems like he knows rask is a villager and since rask voted ladd, monty wasn't considering that he wasn't really clear from an uninformed POV

the perspective doesn't add up iyam

[Dobby]

bruh

I claimed town backup and it has been mentioned ITT a bunch of times

well i missed it bruh btu to be honest

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

poop.

im guessing sorcerer acts before mafia nk so you are basically just vt right

[Zack]

I'm not even sure why he's so insistent on bombing Newcomb and him being a wolf, it's not really explained other than "It's is extremely likely that there was at least one other maf among the many protowagons around EOD" unless I missed it. This read doesn't seem developed, more like latching onto the thread temperature and anticipating the direction it would be headed to encourage town to kill a villager.

I have no reason to think Ender and Monty can't be teamed off the top of my head, I don't think Newcomb listed them in his not w/w section either.

Oh yeah this was gonna be part of that too, just pretend those comments are fleshed out into appropriately Newcomb(TM) sounding sentences.

Rough list of antialignments:

Zack/Ender - early fluidity
Sunbae/Zack - wild treatment of me if w/w/w with ladd; careful respect+suspect type posts of each other early D1
Dobby/Sleep - dobby careful treatment + extra detail interacting with cape read, 116
Ender/HK - early antagonism didn't feel fake
Sunbae/HK - 238, timing
Cape/Rask - cape confusing rask for winston with the winston v flip

nope.

feels weird when these posts are spread out over 40+ minutes but no one else is posting so it looks like I'm just being a spammer, gonna tap out for a bit lol

[Dobby]

liking the monty stuff tbh, big i fture

[Zack]

well i missed it bruh btu to be honest

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

poop.

im guessing sorcerer acts before mafia nk so you are basically just vt right

VT? No. I am an innocent child.

[Sleep]

feels weird when these posts are spread out over 40+ minutes but no one else is posting so it looks like I'm just being a spammer, gonna tap out for a bit lol

ive been lurking but ive kind of just been watching

i had written stuff on ender, honestly in my heart it did not feel like w/w interactions with ladd, i cant see it the way you do

but he has had one post since sod, and it was this:

I don't have a vest and I am sad.

and like...i dont want to necessarily take absence as a sign of guilt because people can have stuff going on that we have no idea about

but its kind of ??? to me

[Zack]

also ladd started shaded me after my votes on d1 had been ender and monty

[Zack]

ender said he had a migraine, I don't think his absence is alignment-related.

he's aussie i believe, should probably be around before too long if he's feeling better (, also to katze since I didn't respond to that earlier)

[Sleep]

ender said he had a migraine, I don't think his absence is alignment-related.

he's aussie i believe, should probably be around before too long if he's feeling better (, also to katze since I didn't respond to that earlier)

ah ok

yeah just kind of...want to hear from him today

[Sunbae]

Driving by to just say csargoat. Hope you were cool with being chosen and you did great.

I've read the stuff today. Going to digest everything and drop back in overnight to give my general headspace for the game.

My biggest thought as of this moment is that nothing in this game that we've learned has surprised me. I thought Zack was a villager, he's now clear. I thought csargo was a villager and he crushed the vest. I thought Monstr was a wolf and Dolby's catch up was weak and the slot flipped wolf. I thought Ladd was wolfy and he flipped wolf. So I think the best course of action is to just continue on making reads based on who is trying to solve the game vs who is just trying to force things until something makes us think the game is more difficult than that.

It gets very easy in these games to start leveling yourself and expect the wolves to be playing at a 400IQ with a bunch of master plans and keep you from trusting anyone. Yet most often these games just result in "the list is full of great villagers and the villagers make themselves obvious enough that the game can get poe'd pretty cleanly".

Just keep it simple baby.

[Newcomb]

Benneh's post #42 I took as a meme but I guess it worked to get some people into the game?

Sunbae calling themselves bad in #47 is a lie

ladd entering the game with #63 where he pops out a list of 5 reads is pretty uh let's call it impressive but my gut is poking at me to tell you i slight w lean that because it's... pretty much based on rvs stuff and dishing out reads or even a list like that feels more like "i should be in character so let me do this yeeeee". But yeah i blame my gut for this one.

EnderWiggins post #69 (nice) also had me thinking, because it's talking about how wolves usually behave early on but i feel like it's only situationally applicable and very much a "this is the consensus thought on how wolves play" but also, in a playerlist like this, pretty much everyone can just play the system and statements like that just end up being... words tbh.

The ladd read I think looks good for dobby. The "in character" bit especially is just a bit pointed to say to your partner I think.

[Sunbae]

Our approach now should be focused on clean up.

We have 4 known villagers and 2 known wolves, one of which was wolf KP. Let's work through various worlds, potential pairs, anti-allied people, and squeeze em out.

And we're well on our way to doing that already. Posting today has been very good for the most part.

[EnderWiggin]

Welcome to your new and improved Ender, Version.2:

* Now with less migraines.

I'm gonna heads up that I have read very little of D2 and my focus will be catching up on that for the next... Few hours.

[hollowkatt]

Can I throw it back at you and ask what things could point towards me being town if you like squint or whatever if you can't find anything? Halp me get into your head

I'm really happy with the way I've played this game. Most of my posts have been to try and like see what people's motivations are to doing what they do, howuch solving they're doing etc. And I'm not playing it safe, I think I'm pretty good at imitating toengame as wolf so it's hard for me to point at anything that stands out really because if there was something I'd actively work on removing that difference tbh, but I really want to say I know what to do as wolf, to look towny. I kinda know how to post to be safe enough that I'm consistently middle of the pack so I can get to endgame without it looking weird etc.

I also believe in the cases I've made, I've reevaluate a lot of my reads and actually followed up on the things I've written and I think my genuine will to solve is showing rather than it just being.. faked?

Idk it's not an easy question to answer and it kinda sounds like I'm honking my own horn here but just trying to keep it as real and honest as possible

Why Dobby could be town, an exercise in expanding my mind:

1. It's pretty early to sus on Ladd here but Dobby does it. No wolf at this point is super concerned with positioning nor is there any kind of indication that Ladd could potentially be at risk here. While it's a safe position for a wolf to take, drawing attention to the position by including it as one of only four stated positions I think is risky. Ladd would need to go over quickly (basically D1) for the read to not look like TMI

Benneh's post #42 I took as a meme but I guess it worked to get some people into the game?

Sunbae calling themselves bad in #47 is a lie

ladd entering the game with #63 where he pops out a list of 5 reads is pretty uh let's call it impressive but my gut is poking at me to tell you i slight w lean that because it's... pretty much based on rvs stuff and dishing out reads or even a list like that feels more like "i should be in character so let me do this yeeeee". But yeah i blame my gut for this one.

EnderWiggins post #69 (nice) also had me thinking, because it's talking about how wolves usually behave early on but i feel like it's only situationally applicable and very much a "this is the consensus thought on how wolves play" but also, in a playerlist like this, pretty much everyone can just play the system and statements like that just end up being... words tbh.

unfortunately this is it.

I've gone through the rest of your ISO and frankly I'd kill you for it. It's not super great. Like the post I'm replying to and the post I quoted above are your towniest posts to me. The rest are kinda meh with quite a few "wtf" thrown in there, specifically when addressing me/your read on me.

Like these:

Vote: Hollowkatt

i still like hk

can you point me to why you don't?

(and apologies for my slackness if you already did)

I had some posts but am on phone now and out so won't til eod, but generally the biggest feeling of "I don't believe that this is what he believes" in the game

so it's mostly gut?

No, I wrote a pretty extensive post about the type of reasoning he used and while I haven't pointed out other specific posts to nit full the thread with my catchup but it's been a general ah I don't like this tbh

Yeah I can. He feels stilted, like his content is forced, and that he's struggling to get into the groove of the game.
I tend to ego solve and compare what people are doing to what I'd be doing in their positions. This would tangentially apply to cape as well tbh:
If I were a wolf in this player list I'd be extremely concerned with making the towniest posts I could make and trying to fit in with the overall flow of the game so as not to get caught out immediately. Unfortunately when I do that I tend to be really obvs a wolf as I'm basically trying too hard. Ender (and Cape) feel like they're trying too hard.

The downside to ego solving is that other people are not me (I know, this is a shocking revelation) and don't necessarily react to things the same way I would. This isn't stopping me from making the read.



And before someone asks, my "no chop" vote is totally legit. This is a player list I am going to struggle to read and seeing who dies over night if we don't chop anyone might help in solving. Otherwise I'm likely going to just sheep someone I town read that I perceive is smarter than I am, or be on some weird vanity wagon at the end of the day.
So I figured I'd throw out not chopping as an option, see what people think of that, and go from there.

and yeah I'm being serious

my thoughts on this is also a tough thing to explain but i feel like there's actually some weight to it.

it's easy to get like, tunnelled in your approach of reading someone, almost confbiasing. Like. Okay, first thing i think when i read ender's post is just this, he does seem to try to force out content, and then i can easily poop out words that add to the initial case i made to make it have some weight to it. This type of read is also... Easily fakeable. It's a tool i use as a wolf, because it's an easy way to play as mafia that looks really towny, and like you've done WORK, and it's a really hard thing to identify as wolfy and push. I feel like this whole post smells of that kind of thing. Add to it the last segment which kind of is a bit hedgy to cover for eventualities where Ender who based on what i've seen now, might very well be an early chop.

So yeah my thoughts on Ender aorn if i'm trying to decide if he's faking it or it's a personality/style of playing thing, is that it seems genuine enough for now and because of it being impossible (unless you know him really well, which i don't but also lolmeta) to judge which one it is, it's also something that a legit read shouldn't be based on. And the read HK is making here is making me :fry: way more tbh.

im not gonna tldr that because it was hard enough to word and prolly still doesnt make sense.

I think monstr is fairly clearly town (i isod him out of curiosity ofc) but i dont want to talk any more about him unless he comes back or smth.

I left the bold in there b/c I have no idea how you arrive at that conclusion, but the main thing I want to point out are your thoughts on my post here. It's nothing but word salad designed to look smart while not actually saying anything other than, in a nut shell, "this is a post I dobby can make as a wolf therefore it can be from a wolf"

And this is the "extensive post about my reasoning" that you've referenced above

i kinda wanna shield sleep

hk and rask are good wagons unless something has majorly changed. csargo idk

Vote: raskolnikov

sorcerer target newcomb better, even ladd tbh

i really dont want either ladd or newc but i prefer ladd

None of these posts are good tbh. newcomb was townie enough that he really shouldn't have been run up at all. Raskol sure, I'll buy that. I thought Rask had wolf potential headed into today as well. I think I've been obvs town, your mileage varies.

I feel like the last post quoted here is something I see quite a bit from wolves in general. Basically taking the position of "I don't really want either of these wagons but if I have to choose I'll take X" where X more often than not is a partner.

Lmao wait was dolby wolf

I was pretty sure monstr wouldn't play like that as wolf but I'm also bad at this game, wp csargo

dolby flips wolf, I put pressure on monstr D1, you literally do not acknowledge that pressure nor address how I could be partnered with either dolby (who said I could be town) / monstr (who did not acknowledge my existence).

There's also this, which is just not true:

I saw a comment last night too from hk about me "not playing" or something which is kinda lol, Day 2 I was pretty much top posting, it's a weird approach from the one I pushed the hardest, I wasn't really discrete about it


And the questions about my eod (yes I ctrl f my name because why not), are like, I preferred hk, couldn't get it through, tried rask because those are prolly the two that have pinged me the most - didn't work. If it was between ladd and newcomb I preferred ladd (I want to write by far but that would prolly be an exaggeration, I didn't reflect upon which of those two I wanted dead until the wagons became just those two ppl)

I think benneh is prolly still my top town, and from what I've skimmed cuth looks even better now imo


Idk what else for now, from what I've skimmed I don't think my reads have changed.hugely
@zack peepee poopoo

We're in D2 currently, you're not top posting. You weren't top posting D1. Even by vv lax definitions of top posting you're still (checks the ISO list) in the bottom half of post counts. It's whatever though, I don't expect total accuracy, just thought this was interesting to point out.

Then today is just a continuation of yesterday

I still think my case on hk is like one of the most hello this is just a wolf, in the game, and really think more people should look at that

Might as well do this again

Vote: hollowkatt

Imma go visit grandma and stuff now, bai

Where's re-evaluations? Where's "maybe I'm wrong, I was wrong on monstr/dolby, I didn't want to participate in Ladd and that was wrong, maybe my reads aren't the greatest and I should stop and think"?

I have more respect for your game than to assume you're lost townie here basically.

anyways, vote: dobby might as well put my money where my mouth is.

[Zack]

damn, good post

[Zack]

dobby/monty?

[EnderWiggin]

And once that questioning started, Ender shifted me really far down the list with some caveat of whatever my explanation was pending.

My response was ?I'm not doing that.?, the pressure on me just kind of dissipated, and then Ender said something like I was a villager and they were trying to trap me or goad me into making up and excuse as a wolf while ?lol no? was the answer ?they were hoping for?.

It feels slimy and opportunistic to me.

Okay I'm going to break this out of my long catchup post because I want to address this.

1. I point out multiple times during D1 that wolves tend to overexplain early because they feel the need to justify their reads.

If you look in my ISO I'm 90% sure I've vocalised this at least twice on D1. Because while it's not an 100% read, if I poke where the overexplanations are it's usually a good start. (Eventually this will be a dead read but it hasn't proven yet.)

With you I approached a very weird sequence as if I sussed it heavily and said "If you don't have an explanation", this is kind of a pressure that wolves respond badly to because, as a good old player once said, "Inconsistency is the goblin of wolfy minds." Wolves hate being inconsistent in their attempts to play unless they're good enough to understand that.

2. Why is pressuring someone to give an answer when you don't expect them to have one "slimy and opportunistic"? If you're talking about the way it reacted to the content around you, well sure you can sus me for that but I ain't got control of that so meh.

I don't think it's a bad play.

In fact I think it's a good play. And I'll defend that.