Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Visor]

Current Game Status:

Alive: (9/17)
2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

Dead: (8/17)
4. Ladd, Mafia N3 Sorcerer, died D1.
5. Winston Hughes, Vanilla Town, killed N1.
8. Csargo, Vanilla Town, detonated D2.
13. monstrbro Dolby, replaced after EOD1, Mafia Goon, exploded D2.
7. Newcomb, Vanilla Town, died D2.
1. zack, Town Backup, killed N2.
9. EnderWiggin, Mafia Goon, detonated D3.
10. Sunbae, Town Sorcerer, exploded D3.

[Sleep]

i mite b leveling myself but with ender defending cape day 1 i think cape is more likely than not v

[Sleep]

also hollowkatt just a villager?

[Dobby]

i don't really see the stuff ladd is saying about ender as wolfy, but i might need to re-read his guide to villaging. i do think ladd's choice of words that he was going to "help" me are interesting in italics.

there are two things that ping me re: ender

1) him claiming my post on dobby was presented as a deep read. i don't really see how someone can come to that conclusion? it was served up as a way to get people out of copypasta mode (slight mission accomplished!) more than anything else. the thoughts themselves are real but when someone suggests deep read its definitely going to be more than just tonal/filler accusations against a 1-poster.

i'm tempering 1 a bit because i don't think i can be the best judge of how my post re: dobby came across since i'm aware of the intent behind it. plus, ladd said i needed help, maybe i appeared to be struggling, lol. i also think ender's Wendy's reply kind of fits with his thinking that it appeared as a deep read.

2) "so I literally can't care enough to tell everyone why that could be a wolf play." this line/snippet from just pings me from a different mindset. why the default to explaining why it can't be a wolf play vs can't be a village play or just NAI? for clarity, this is not a deep read :) but it does ping me as a weird way to hedge the end of that post after saying you appreciated me starting the game off with a watery weak read.

Benneh's post #42 I took as a meme but I guess it worked to get some people into the game?

Sunbae calling themselves bad in #47 is a lie

ladd entering the game with #63 where he pops out a list of 5 reads is pretty uh let's call it impressive but my gut is poking at me to tell you i slight w lean that because it's... pretty much based on rvs stuff and dishing out reads or even a list like that feels more like "i should be in character so let me do this yeeeee". But yeah i blame my gut for this one.

EnderWiggins post #69 (nice) also had me thinking, because it's talking about how wolves usually behave early on but i feel like it's only situationally applicable and very much a "this is the consensus thought on how wolves play" but also, in a playerlist like this, pretty much everyone can just play the system and statements like that just end up being... words tbh.

Can i just bang on my own d1 drum a little

at least 3 of the statements/reads in my post there are true ( @Sunbae love u lots ur the loveliest person i think )

i also quoted that post from benneh because i found it when i was looking from my post that i thought looked good


that post just clears benneh so my tinfoil is GONE for real this time, maybe the easyh way is just the easy way this game

[hollowkatt]

EnderWiggin has detonated. They were Mafia Goon.

Sunbae has died. They were Town Sorcerer.

Carry on.

GOD FUCKING DAMMIT I WAS RIGHT

[hollowkatt]

anyways GG ender GG sunbae, may DVC be kind to you

[nebjiamn]

Alright here's where I'm at.

2. nebjiamn
3. cuthillius
6. Raskolnikov
9. EnderWiggin
11. Montmorency
12. roro__b
14. katze
15. Sleep
16. Cape90
17. hollowkatt

2 wolves in 10 names. Start taking people off the list.

Bennah and cuth are my first cuts (i.e. strongest townreads). With bennah, it's that his approach to me has felt the most genuine out of anyone ITT. For cuth, it's that of the ladd voters he's the one where like... I know Cuth as a player pretty well, I think? I don't know monte or rask so I don't really have a mental map of what they would or wouldn't do. But in that situation if Cuth's partnered with ladd I just really don't believe Cuth as a player puts that vote down. Not with the speed that it happened. He just doesn't strike me as that... ruthless is maybe the wrong word. Mercurial?

I think I'm also just gonna let jesus take the wheel and take sleep off the list. This is mostly just a thread flow / thread state thing, and an overall body of work thing.

Raskolnikov
EnderWiggin
Montmorency
roro__b
katze
Cape90
hollowkatt

I feel pretty comfortable saying both wolves in there. Like if they're not, I got fooled, straight up. GG to whoever.

Technically I really only *need* one more name to call it a real PoE - village should control 6 more kills - but I know you're looking for more in the way of actual committed wolfreads. Which, yeah, fair. At the same time like... idk I kind of reserve the right to not *always* have a strong wolfread? I know the game seems like it should be easy on paper, but the ladd wagon was just so *weird* and so fast that I think it's perfectly reasonable to not have a strong sense of a lock solve even with 2 reds, 2 greens, and 2 confirmed on d2. So yeah part of me just wants to kind of be stubborn and go, nah, I'm not gonna force this. But I do know that if the tables were turned and I were in your shoes, that's what I'd want to see.

So let's take a swing at forcing it -

Rask - I see Rask as kind of ... jumpy. Flitting around from topic to topic. Uneven engagement levels. Trying to track a single line of thought - like their read on me, is confusing. You go from like, naysaying Ender's wall on me, to saying they found zack/me villagery at SoD2, to saying that EoD1 they could have voted me, to going through and picking a bunch of kind of random stuff to shade me for. I think this actually feels kind of TWTBTWTBAW? Just like, the... unevenness of it, the messiness of it. I skimmed through this ISO kind of looking for reasons to call rask a wolf but I think gun to my head they're just a villager. It's also like... pretty hard to get away from the fact that they could have easily voted me EoD1 and swung it onto a villager instead of the wolf PR, so like... yeah. Think I gotta just take that one off the table.

HK - Biggest thing for me with HK is that he just doesn't really feel like he's got a team. He's playing like... a bit removed from the thread, but I believe he cares about the things he's posting about. I also think he hasn't really changed tonally from before EoD/dolby dying, to after it, which like. If he were a wolf I feel like some of that body blow would leak through into the posting, since his thread position wouldn't be awesome. At the end of the day I wouldn't be like, *surprised* if he were a wolf, since the overall top down level of like, is he engaged with the game the same way bennah's engaged with the game? No, not really. But yeah gun to my head, villager.

Katze - I think I'm just gonna say wolf. They way they were interacting with me, was gonna say early on but really all game, is just so *weird*. Like some of that can be explained by the miscommunication in them thinking I knew their meta or w/e, but not all of it. They've just felt so like... softly yet continually focused on me, to the extent where it feels like they know I have to die to town KP at some point for wolves to win. Just kind of a steady, "hey guys remember Newcomb, it seems like the thread hasn't talked about Newcomb in a while, let's talk about Newcomb like MAYBE he's a villager but MAN I don't KNOW". I admit some of this is wanting to be vindicated in my early read. But yeah if I had a bomb right now I think I'd go for the mildly hero shot and take it, knowing it wasn't like the most high percentage shot ever. But fuck it right? I could tack on - and it's definitely a tack-on - the fact that katze is posting a lot and generally around a fair bit and I can't off the top of my head know what he thinks about the game or who he wants to kill the same way I can track like, sleep or zack. Which, yeah, that could absolutely just be my own casualness this game seeping through, I freely admit I'm not paying attention to things to a degree where this would be a real red flag. But it's worth mentioning at least.

Monte - Yeah kind of think monte has a pretty decent chance of flipping red as well? Like, if he hadn't done two things - those things being the vote on ladd, and the aesthetically pleasing recent quote wall - you'd just kind of write him off as a monssr/dolby style "yeah probably just wolf fine PoE ez". The ladd vote was the 2nd one, the winston vote had been there for a while, so like, it kinda.... started the flashwagon, as opposed to finishing it or cementing it. And it did happen real, real fast. And there was the unvote. Which I don't think makes it likely a bus on its *own*, but I do think it puts what normally would be a pretty clearing vote in a normal game where the ladd wagon built and grew in a normal amount of time as opposed to like, literally 5 minutes or w/e. It wouldn't shock me at all if a hipfire/ gutty wolf threw down a distancing vote on a partner near EoD where wagons were that disorganized, and couldn't really hop off or saw the writing on the wall too late to do anything. Then there's the most recent flurry of posts. Which... I had a kind of negative reaction to, but have been trying to check myself on it since a lot of it was a visceral opposition to the whole wanting to resolve or infokill me without actually having a read on me. I think the most clear thing I can say about monte's recent posts is that they feel performative. Kind of... wanting to be seen, wanting to have a presence, being smooth about it. Yeah. Decent shot of being a wolf IMO.

Ender - I kind of want to just yolo Cuth's read and take ender off the table? But man if anyone fits the mold of a wolf who got deflated by the EoD1/wolf bomb shot... Their activity and presence is like night and day, D1 vs. now. And yeah I know he said he had a migraine, that's totally legit and not something I"m pushing on at all. Just... overall, holistic I mean I have the thought, it's there, I'm not gonna not mention it. They were *really* pushing for me at EoD1. Like the most vocal by far. And they've kind of walked that back toDay in a way that feels to me like they're kind of reading the tea leaves and not like, a genuine flip for reasons that are transparent and I can actually follow. Fuck you know despite all of that my gut says town. Idk what to tell you. I think I always need to kill this slot in my PoE but my heart says it's flipping v. It is what it is.

Cape - I'm still kind of processing that post he randomly quoted of mine from a hundred years ago. I would... definitely like to see the thought process behind that. Moving on to the bigger picture - I just don't think he really fits on a lot of teams. I guess he could be with HK or something? He's probably not with monte, I don't really think he's with dobby. I guess more meaningfully he doesn't really fit on a ladd/monsr/cape/x team like in general. I think it's gonna be hard to not PoE this slot but we really should clear it if we can, because if cape's v that's like always always a misyeet wolves need. I can't like, do that, not now, but I do want to try to get there if it's possible.

Dobby - I think dobby's kind of in his own world. It is a really fine line between "i'm talking about the things I want to talk about because I really believe in them and don't want to get dragged into stuff I don't care about" and "I'm a wolf and I need to keep the conversation and style of play in my comfort zone." Idk. I think he's got some decent associative. I think it's a good look that he's seemingly gotten more active after the redflips. I think the mech stuff and confusion about dolby dying and a lot of kind of wonky posts feel like a wolf would be a bit more careful in that kind of thing, in a self-awareness way. I think gun to my head villager. But this is definitely my most "man who the fuck knows" read.

So yeah.

There you go Sunbae. My yolo fuck it guess for the win is katz/monte. Doesn't really, like... feel right. But if you want me to take a swing, there it is. In terms of likely to actually flip wolf, I think something like -

Monte >> Katze >>>> HK = ender > cape > dobby >>> rask

Vote: Montmorency

That's about the most detailed I can be while doing this at work, but I'm around to chat for another ~hour or so probably.

if I die here my legacy is to kill ender then everyone on my wagon

Cheers, if this is it I had fun despite some really wack reasoning w/r/t me

Players Votes

Newcomb 4 (Montmorency, katze, Cape90, hollowkatt)
Montmorency 3 (Newcomb, zack, Raskolnikov)
Cape90 3 (nebjiamn, Sleep, EnderWiggin)
EnderWiggin 2 (Dobby, Sunbae)
katze 1 (Cuthillius)


I believe this is the correct tally.

10 minutes for corrections.

Newcomb goat

[Dobby]

is this the part where i say "ill start actively trying to solve if monty isnt IT"

[hollowkatt]

we're still at 8:1 which is good all things speaking but losing a flip feels bad

unless ender was wolf and bombed wolf we were always losing a townie today
either wolf ender bombs like he did or town ender bombs a wolf
worst case would have been losing three townies today. Lets make it only one.

[Sleep]

unless ender was wolf and bombed wolf we were always losing a townie today
either wolf ender bombs like he did or town ender bombs a wolf
worst case would have been losing three townies today. Lets make it only one.

difference is losing a POE town vs losing a clear but not worth getting into

[hollowkatt]

Players Votes

ladd 4 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius, Montmorency, Raskolnikov)
Newcomb 3 (Enderwiggin, katze, Sleep)
Raskolnikov 3 (Monstrdude, nebjiamn, Dobby)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
hollowkatt 1 (Csargo)


This is the final tally I have.

Pm me or dm me on discord if there are any corrections.

real talk question: why bus Ladd here instead of voting newcomb or rask?
does it actually out Ladd as wolf? Yes we'd spend D2 talking about Ladd and the wagons but I'm not sure Ladd goes over D2 tbh

[Dobby]

Newcomb goat

do you think katze uh, tunnels newcomb as fiercely as she did if wolf
and uh

i kinda want to see what happened after my ender vote because i think i wasnt the only one on him before i left last night, so like, wagonomics might ACTUALLY tell something this game, most often they dont though



but also, ender voting cape is.... only meaningful if he tried to go very deep by bussing in a situation where either of them might go down, i dont really believe that. there's not a crossvote either which would make MORE sense if they were teamed... Might be worth checking earlier vc's as well to see how the woofers have voted re eachother


but i dont know how to search this forum (and even if i use searh thread it only gives me last 100 posts, and if i ctrl f dobby on a page it doesnt fucking show posts that ive written for some reaosn)

[hollowkatt]

difference is losing a POE town vs losing a clear but not worth getting into

obvs yeah, I was just talking maths

[nebjiamn]

Can?t link zacks post for some reason but he calls out monty katze ender and dobby

[Sleep]

do you think katze uh, tunnels newcomb as fiercely as she did if wolf
and uh

i kinda want to see what happened after my ender vote because i think i wasnt the only one on him before i left last night, so like, wagonomics might ACTUALLY tell something this game, most often they dont though



but also, ender voting cape is.... only meaningful if he tried to go very deep by bussing in a situation where either of them might go down, i dont really believe that. there's not a crossvote either which would make MORE sense if they were teamed... Might be worth checking earlier vc's as well to see how the woofers have voted re eachother


but i dont know how to search this forum (and even if i use searh thread it only gives me last 100 posts, and if i ctrl f dobby on a page it doesnt fucking show posts that ive written for some reaosn)

ender was defending cape most of day 1/day 2, saying he misread him in their last game and he was similar here.

[nebjiamn]

Don’t think I’d kill dobby until f3 or f5 or whatever we’d end up in I haven’t done the math

[Dobby]

real talk question: why bus Ladd here instead of voting newcomb or rask?
does it actually out Ladd as wolf? Yes we'd spend D2 talking about Ladd and the wagons but I'm not sure Ladd goes over D2 tbh

kat and ender on newcomb actually



okay i might AKSHULLY look into the votes because i think there's something there



oh and the logical answer to this is if he voteswitches from ladd then itll be very obvious that hes woof that fake voted a teammate because ladd was 100% going to go down either way even if not at eod.

[hollowkatt]

do you think katze uh, tunnels newcomb as fiercely as she did if wolf
and uh

i kinda want to see what happened after my ender vote because i think i wasnt the only one on him before i left last night, so like, wagonomics might ACTUALLY tell something this game, most often they dont though



but also, ender voting cape is.... only meaningful if he tried to go very deep by bussing in a situation where either of them might go down, i dont really believe that. there's not a crossvote either which would make MORE sense if they were teamed... Might be worth checking earlier vc's as well to see how the woofers have voted re eachother


but i dont know how to search this forum (and even if i use searh thread it only gives me last 100 posts, and if i ctrl f dobby on a page it doesnt fucking show posts that ive written for some reaosn)

if you're asking does katze have the chutzpah to do that? absolutely katze does.

If you're asking did katze do it this game I think the answer is no

[Dobby]

Don’t think I’d kill dobby until f3 or f5 or whatever we’d end up in I haven’t done the math

torture

i wont kill you until f3 either, lets suffer together

[Cape90]

however if monty v and cape w, i just want to say i told you so

i was tunneled on newc but looks like i was right on ender in spite of what zack was saying

I am almost thinking monty is just v?

[hollowkatt]

kat and ender on newcomb actually



okay i might AKSHULLY look into the votes because i think there's something there



oh and the logical answer to this is if he voteswitches from ladd then itll be very obvious that hes woof that fake voted a teammate because ladd was 100% going to go down either way even if not at eod.

three of the ladd voters are still alive. Monte is the obvs wolf of the bunch. Raskol I think I have really good reasons to town read. Cuth otoh still feels a bit wonky to me.

[nebjiamn]

I have nfi lol

really I need a break

[Cape90]

what were u even hoping for with that

I mostly wanted to see the answers for

Who should I boom?

I was interested in seeing the range of answers I would get here

[Sleep]

You know, I don't actually like this read all that much on EnderWiggin as I feel like what Ender has been doing has been sort of villagery for actually the same reasons why ladd suspects Ender.

Are you still thinking along these lines when it comes to Ender?

I feel like this is a really weak point against Ender's case here

POE of Ender/Newcomb/Mont/katze probably could win the game?

I am so mixed on katze since I know they can play well

Vote: Newcomb

fine

if I die, I think Ender should be at least double checked, like where they at?

.............

:/

surprisingly little comment from cape on ender. i dont even know that hed be so careless.

idk

i dont want to tunnel

[Dobby]

if you're asking does katze have the chutzpah to do that? absolutely katze does.

If you're asking did katze do it this game I think the answer is no

katze is capable of anything but just based off the newcomb (deaht)tunnel id say no


but also

ive doubled and tripled down on bad tunnels as wolf, so itll look dumb enough that "no way dobby does this as wolf because its just soooo weird to just keep insisitng on his tunnel and hes just doing his own weird thing but hes probably just town" and then i get to just focus on my tunnel and telling people to hear me out but i KNOW nobody will care to read what ive written and evaluate if i belive in my tunnel that ive written 100 posts about


does that make sense


ie: i think katze IS capable of doing that yes because its honestly a legit strat


akshully

yeaeh im not clearing kat here just yet



thats benneh and kat done, monty and cape auto-go into my hmm pile because theyre not getting clered

benneh lock good

kat in my hmm pile
monty in my hmm pile
cape in my hmm pile

[hollowkatt]

if it's monte he voted his entire team during D1

[Cape90]

Newcomb goat

"goat"

Ender - On my wagon

tbh I was considering unvoting Newcomb for the wall, but I wanted a rand

but then like 1 more happened

[Dobby]

.............

:/

surprisingly little comment from cape on ender. i dont even know that hed be so careless.

idk

i dont want to tunnel

hey imma do a fun exercise thing and look at something brb

[Sleep]

I mostly wanted to see the answers for



I was interested in seeing the range of answers I would get here

ok

....

just gonna close my eyes and call you town

[Cape90]

.............

:/

surprisingly little comment from cape on ender. i dont even know that hed be so careless.

idk

i dont want to tunnel

I didn't focus on ender since I thought they were playing their town game

and then they just completely shut off activity wise day 2, and then that's when I started thinking, but it was like... with an hour or so left in EOD.

I wish I could wolf theatre like that first quote