Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[Cuthillius]

if i'm there again i'm snap voting you

though really it's my fault for not outing my LOCK MAFIA "sort these players from v to w" tell

ah yes the lock i do it in literally every game except this one because i can't be arsed to delete the numbers from in front of people's names in the playerlist

[Dobby]

i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir

also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P


also i kinda looked at your interactions with flipped wolves and posted it (or the relevant stuff from it) i know you addressed ender a lot but he forgot to answer all of it or something if so :P

oh im tired it said respectively

also talk about the unvote

[Cuthillius]

monty what was your impression of where the wagons were when you unvoted? had you been planning to unvote when you voted initially?

[Montmorency]

@Cuthillius

Remember the failure of Mass Effect? D4 we Tdome, I'm ousted, you're NKed, Visor MLed LYLO. Check yourself.

not solely no

i think winston was unquestionably super towny (despite being tunneled on me ) and had some super good posts and read lists that, uh lemme find it i saw a few earlier today

Winston's power level is even higher than Zack's, he routinely gets killed early as town.

holy shit reading through this winston really had it out for me :(

die

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

​vote: dobby

i dont see anything in winstons iso that would make me think hes sorcerer, and wolves not going for sorc is ballsy unless they think the wolves were well hidden and hoped for town on town action

Why go after sorc? Sorc is more likely to get town killed than scum, and is less efficient than a plain vig. Moreover, waiting until D2 allows for rolefishing.

i also dont understand why winston stopped pushing me because he hated everything about everything i wrote and suddenyl was on ladd eod :P

@WAGONOMICS

but like

the unvote from Monty...

It's so strange that when I did this (D1 unvote killing scum) as town, which I surely always am, I was almost consensus cleared for it.

im aware the read on you is related to the readlist, that doesn't make me struggle to parse it as real and if it's a meme then i think it's still a pretty awko taco meme and my meme energy reads are 100% this game (read: 1 for 1) therefore this one is also correct

and i just explained why i'm voting cape over monty but im not going to strongarm it because i don't TR monty i just think cape had a series of wolfy posts and ive struggled to find any reason to townread him at all this game whereas ive had reasons prior to townread monty even excluding the ladd vote

shrugze

Setting up D4.

alright here's where I'm at, final edition:

monte has a lot of really good associatives, should be chopped just because

The only thing against me is the Newcomb flub, which while bad does not change the reality of prior interactions with known scum.

anyway i'm gonna try to explain my mindset rn because i think the misunderstandings are coming from me being lazy more than anything and being misunderstood is a bit of a peeve of mine so i should stop not doing myself any favors:

i think this game is still easy; i don't really feel obligated to... try that hard to win it? like, i feel pretty good about it just being in monty or cape. if it's not there, i expect to get executed, and i might fight that a bit if it comes to it because i'm a stubborn bastard but i've already basically accepted it.

So the immediate point about this list is that from a scum-Katze POV:

D3: Mont
D4: Cape
D5: Cuth
D6: Dobby

is pretty much necessary. Although if neither katze nor none of those options are scum themselves then any scum would have to follow the same path, substituting katze for Cuth.

What I'm saying is that the POE is kind of rigid from almost any theory of the game.

[Sleep]

monty comes into thread and posts a semi jokey vote on monstr, is it just me or does it look like w/w action?

I agree this is not a great look especially given the consistent pattern of distancing day 1 among the flipped scum. very soft touch.

[Sleep]

ah yes the lock i do it in literally every game except this one because i can't be arsed to delete the numbers from in front of people's names in the playerlist

legit i couldnt find a single town game u did it in in my sample lmao

[Cuthillius]

legit i couldnt find a single town game u did it in in my sample lmao

that's hilarious but also i just clicked three town games from before we played for each of these games:

here's me talking about it in another game

and also there were several offsite

i feel like this might be a sample size issue lmao

[Sleep]

^If Cuth mafia, then all 5 names listed here are town so this worldbuilding doesn't look super wolfy fmpov

allow me to tell you about the hours of meta research i did on cuth's scumgame now that i've outed

[Cuthillius]

*i clicked 3 and 2/3 had it and i clicked around a bit more after

didn't actually play that many games on mu in general but

[Montmorency]

i dont think ive voted newcomb all game sir

"katze and dobby voted NC and Rask, respectively, "

y no1 red my poasts

also benneh is never in f3, neither will cape :P

A very interesting opinion.

monty what was your impression of where the wagons were when you unvoted? had you been planning to unvote when you voted initially?

I think I posted about this in one of my two posts of minutes ago, but...

I thought I was voting to tie ladd 3-3-3. I saw right at the bell ladd was in the lead with Rask's vote and Sleep's switch back to NC.

I agree this is not a great look especially given the consistent pattern of distancing day 1 among the flipped scum. very soft touch.

How were scum interacting w/ each other vs. w/ flipped townies vs. w/ me.

Think about it.

What can I say, Zack and Sunbae had a great game. Cuth or katze are good candidates for final scum. But Cuth might be spewed town by Ender spending most of EOD whining that Cuth wouldn't sheep his case on NC even though Cuth TLed him, unless you think that's part of the same sort of theater as Ender-ladd. Anyone remember that? Just reread EOD1.

So, if I vote myself out will people believe I have something on Newcomb and go there tomorrow instead of staying off them for ? reasons?

for the love of all that is good in the world please just don't.

if you're voted out today is your legacy "kill newcomb with fire" or "stop ignoring newcomb and talk about him more" because i feel like im the loudest anti-newcomb voice and if i died today i'd absolutely not lean the former

I don't mind this if Newcomb is off the table.

I do not feel like their reads feel entirely legit. Especially the way they've treated me.

I right now feel the former.

Might be that I read their reaction to the case I posted where they "forgot" who posted it.

And idk I just viscerally want the flip and the red blood of a wolf on my hands to prove myself right now.

Also like, Csargo's weird flip flop on me to a townread actually feels more legit than Cuth's progression.

What I think happened now - my theory for EOD1 - is that 2 scum were AFK, Ender was present almost flailing with his vote parked on Newcomb throughout, and katze was in there without much thread presence finally dropping a vote onto Newcomb 1 minute out.

It could be Sleep or Dobby too playing a similar role with votes on NC and Rask respectively, but I doubt it, and that's up for others to sort since this game looks more like my Mass Effect a year ago without the super-deep mafia.

Vote: Katze

She has too been posting like SOD3 threw her for a loop.

My final answer is katze; I shan't afford another. ggwp

Unfortunately I can't go beyond myself without breaking the game.

Reposting.

[Sleep]

that's hilarious but also i just clicked three town games from before we played for each of these games:

here's me talking about it in another game

and also there were several offsite

i feel like this might be a sample size issue lmao

yeah it was 100% just bad sampling because i cba to dig thru all the turbos to find the long games

[Cuthillius]

so monty to be clear

you thought you were tying it both when you initially voted and when you unvoted then?

were you planning to unvote at all before it happened?

[Cuthillius]

yeah it was 100% just bad sampling because i cba to dig thru all the turbos to find the long games

rip

i'm still

i should so not have won that game

[Montmorency]

so monty to be clear

you thought you were tying it both when you initially voted and when you unvoted then?

were you planning to unvote at all before it happened?

If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.

[Sleep]

you two are goofs and i love you for it tbh

i have to say this catchup has been unexpectedly hilarious and delightful

[Sleep]

rip

i'm still

i should so not have won that game

yeah eh i mean a sub in f3, what can you do? just super messed up the gamestate

i recovered like 2 days later because i got to replace into a game, draw a mafia slot, and hammer town!nacho

[Cuthillius]

If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.

sleep voted ladd at least 20 seconds before you voted though and switched right before you posted

did you see his post before you voted or did you think you were the fourth vote lol

[Cuthillius]

yeah eh i mean a sub in f3, what can you do? just super messed up the gamestate

i recovered like 2 days later because i got to replace into a game, draw a mafia slot, and hammer town!nacho

oh brilliant i'm glad to hear

i was a wreck afterwards

[Cuthillius]

it's a cute tiger

[hollowkatt]

im not kind this is the first game i havent tilted in (yet) in... months or years

honestly same lol

[hollowkatt]

If I was unvoting to get the tie, presumably I wasn't planning to unvote when I thought I was setting the tie. I just have a reticence toward making the wrong wagon pick in raw CFDs so ties are safer. Disconcerting that you and HK don't remember this from my meta, since it has been a subject of conversation before.

I don't think we've played enough games for me to have an understanding of what you'd do from a meta perspective.

That being said, ties are resolved at Random, which seems less than good when you're trying to understand who wanted which wagons and how the run up to EOD(X) goes. I wouldn't play for purposeful random on any day unless there was something that personally benefited me to do so, so when you say you wanted to set the tie and you had cold feet about being on the wrong wagon I want to believe you, I just can't put myself into that kind of mindset.

I think I may believe you more if you'd cast another vote instead of just trying to unvote as at least you'd be on the record of wanting somebody dead whereas if your unvote had been successful probably we're still having this conversation, only instead of saying "unvote post chop is sus" it's "unvote and not taking a position when there are multiple options to choose from is sus"

[Montmorency]

sleep voted ladd at least 20 seconds before you voted though and switched right before you posted

did you see his post before you voted or did you think you were the fourth vote lol

Why specifically 20 seconds? I recall reacting to the flurry of voting immediately following this tally. I made my decision to tie-vote and went to upload the reaction image.

I don't think we've played enough games for me to have an understanding of what you'd do from a meta perspective.

That being said, ties are resolved at Random, which seems less than good when you're trying to understand who wanted which wagons and how the run up to EOD(X) goes. I wouldn't play for purposeful random on any day unless there was something that personally benefited me to do so, so when you say you wanted to set the tie and you had cold feet about being on the wrong wagon I want to believe you, I just can't put myself into that kind of mindset.

I think I may believe you more if you'd cast another vote instead of just trying to unvote as at least you'd be on the record of wanting somebody dead whereas if your unvote had been successful probably we're still having this conversation, only instead of saying "unvote post chop is sus" it's "unvote and not taking a position when there are multiple options to choose from is sus"

The point being is that I don't necessarily want to provide the decisive vote onto anyone if I wind up wrong (remember this is information voting from my end; it's different when pursuing a hard case.)

It's not a strategy, just psychology.

Players Votes

Newcomb 2 (Enderwiggin, Sleep)
Csargo 2 (Cape90, hollowkatt)
hollowkatt 2 (Dobby, Csargo)
Raskolnikov 2 (Monstrdude, Montmorency)
ladd 2 (Winston Hughes, Cuthillius)
Sleep 2 (ladd, Newcomb)
Cuthillius 1 (Raskolnikov)
Montmorency 1 (Sunbae)
Enderwiggin 1 (zack)

1118

EOD-2

Rask > Sunbae
Neb > Rask (3)
katze > NC (3)

If katze was scum, she was voting to put NC in the lead past Csargo, HK, Sleep, Rask, and ladd. (Neb voted simultaneously onto Rask, so in theory we could say the same about his vote.)

Sleep > ladd (3)
dobby > Rask (4)
Sleep > NC (3)

Sleep as scum would be reacting very cannily to the immediate VC here. Either way, he was probably following the VC to the dot.

Mont > ladd (3)
Rask > ladd (4)

Simultaneous.

Out of all these people katze has the worst associatives. Only one can be scum.

There is my theory. Take it today or take it tomorrow.

[Sleep]

it's a cute tiger

ty i was searching through the default avatars and it reminded me of a friends avatar

---

anyway for actual game related business:

potentially dumb read alert: i kind of feel like cape has almost been too wrong to be mafia, and...i don't really get what the mafia were doing if they ere, like, distancing from each other day 1 but HARD SHIELDING cape, because, like, no offense but he has the last forum mafia experience of anyone here? don't get me wrong, he's a sharp kid, no slouch at all, but like, do they realistically expect him to endgame in this playerlist? probably not, so like, are they really going to spend day 1 trying to powerwolf for him? kinda doubt it, feels in my gut like bog standard white knighting now (i am pretty sure i have scumread cape in every single non-turbo game i have played with him. i was right once! but honestly he was worse that game than he's been here and his WIM sank like a stone despite the fact that his team was winning)

[Cuthillius]

Why specifically 20 seconds? I recall reacting to the flurry of voting immediately following this tally. I made my decision to tie-vote and went to upload the reaction image.

ok that's

weird

but alright

20 seconds because there's the post cooldown and he voted and then voted someone else within that window before you posted

[Cuthillius]

ty i was searching through the default avatars and it reminded me of a friends avatar

---

anyway for actual game related business:

potentially dumb read alert: i kind of feel like cape has almost been too wrong to be mafia, and...i don't really get what the mafia were doing if they ere, like, distancing from each other day 1 but HARD SHIELDING cape, because, like, no offense but he has the last forum mafia experience of anyone here? don't get me wrong, he's a sharp kid, no slouch at all, but like, do they realistically expect him to endgame in this playerlist? probably not, so like, are they really going to spend day 1 trying to powerwolf for him? kinda doubt it, feels in my gut like bog standard white knighting now (i am pretty sure i have scumread cape in every single non-turbo game i have played with him. i was right once! but honestly he was worse that game than he's been here and his WIM sank like a stone despite the fact that his team was winning)

i imagine the game went down the chute once ladd actually died there

[hollowkatt]

The point being is that I don't necessarily want to provide the decisive vote onto anyone if I wind up wrong (remember this is information voting from my end; it's different when pursuing a hard case.)

It's not a strategy, just psychology.

Yeah, again I can't wrap my head around that. I'd rather be decisively wrong and own it than leave things up to chance.
All voting is "information voting" unless you've got a red check on someone so yeah.

I do believe you believe what you're saying though

[nebjiamn]

K I’ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he’ll flip v

im gonna die and you’re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn’t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn’t catch on.

I’ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

[nebjiamn]

No one else is mafia

except monty

and kat

and cape

and dobby

but no one else

[Cuthillius]

K I’ve sorted it out

were gonna yeet Monty today and he’ll flip v

im gonna die and you’re gonna lunch cuth to win the game

Read cuth and ender at eod. Read cuths position as a wagon during that discussion. Wolves thought he was going over. Ender found reasons to suspect cuth while sticking around trying to lunch newcomb and build that wagon as a counter. He then weakly clears cuth for a boring post. Props to Monty for deducing that post meant nothing

ladd goes from a 5th option that cuth wouldn’t kill to a 2nd vote on Ladd when it seems the wagons are going to tip back to cuth or cfd onto newc, rask, or some other lhf. Worst case cuth lands on Ladd in a 4 way rand.

ladd literally catches fire with votes from sleep and Monty with literally no time on the clock. Theres no time to react and no real way this could have been predicted. But why would cuth go against his word when other wagons he WOULD lunch and DOES wolf read more than Ladd ? Why does ender clear cuth over a NAI post? Cuth wagon disintegrates at that point and ender needs a way to decommit from voting there if newc doesn’t catch on.

I’ll bet my entire deck mafia card collection on this. Cuth is mafia

counterpoint: i was never going over there

[Raskolnikov]

I have no idea how you all are so confident on Rask, like at all. I think they look like town

But so does like

everyone that isn't Mont

i mean even Mont has some good posts

tbh you should be turboed in the unlikely event Monty doesn't flip wolf (because I go afk for 24h and you are setting me up for next day lol. u know even if you pretend to not seeing it, people read the thread and have witnessed the action. tinfoiling a slots for raisins won't do any good here. #forSunbae)

@hollowkatt: re Winston might have been a read list: remember this post from EOD1 where he said "Ladd/Newcomb/Montmorency were all good targets"? I do