Sorceror 17er Game Thread

[hollowkatt]

uh

it really depends

i think my natural inclination is kind of to want to play the hero, to catch the scum no one else sees


however in a game where i have been proven wrong/other people seem to have a stronger grasp of it, i will go along with the crowd. if someone yells at me loud enough i usually buckle because i usually feel like i have a desire to be validated in my thinking

so in this game specifically then you'd be more likely to "play the hero" on D1, perhaps D2, but as the game went on and you were consistently wrong you would follow along more.

Is that a fair statement to make?

on a completely unrelated note why did you vote katze with your first post of the game?

[hollowkatt]

fair enough and honestly pretty accurate interpretation of my wolfmeta



absolutely the latter, very much so a viber/realtimer

im sometimes analytical but it's tiring for me cause my attention span is rly short so its not super often. i force it out of myself when i feel like i need to be but its not my preferred method of play

like today i am definitely forcing myself to play differently than i'd prefer to. id much rather just vote off of vibes but im making myself go through isos and stuff because i feel like i need to

I do tend to notice a lot more things than I actually talk about so I'm glad you think I've gotten your wolf meta fairly accurately.

I'm asking these "weird" questions for reasons, I'll explain more when I have something I think is legit to talk about. But thank you for answering.

[Sleep]

so in this game specifically then you'd be more likely to "play the hero" on D1, perhaps D2, but as the game went on and you were consistently wrong you would follow along more.

Is that a fair statement to make?

on a completely unrelated note why did you vote katze with your first post of the game?

i would say that's close to accurate, yes

i feel like...as things went along, i explored alternate theories and presented them but lost the confidence in pushing them strongly. this was kind of like how yesterday i was sussing you but didnt have the courage to go "omg everyone it's hk", and when i tried casing you i lost the will halfway through


i think it was just because it was rvs and you had voted katze, so putting another vote on her would be a wagon. i'm used to a style of play where more often people vote early and move their votes around a lot

[Sleep]

i feel like i know exactly what you're doing lmao

and no, votes arent locked so it's not significant anyway

i've already said i'm not 100% on it being you

im an obvious villager and if you deny that, you're a wolf :3

what i am doing is declaring myself an obvious villager and you a wolf for claiming that i am not

i am locking my vote on you and not moving


why should i believe ur an obvious villager?

[katze]

what i am doing is declaring myself an obvious villager and you a wolf for claiming that i am not

i am locking my vote on you and not moving


why should i believe ur an obvious villager?

are you trying to be obnoxious on purpose

if you're such an obvious villager than are both me and hollowkatt wolves for not seeing it?

[Sleep]

are you trying to be obnoxious on purpose

if you're such an obvious villager than are both me and hollowkatt wolves for not seeing it?

no, i'm making a stand because i think the way you're playing right now is scummy and i'm trying to pin you to the wall for it. you can hardly give a straight answer for any of the things you are saying.


hollowkatt declared that he's keeping his vote on me because he didn't like how he responded to me. maybe he's serious, maybe he isn't. that is not my problem. what he has said makes sense to me. what you have said does not make sense.

[katze]

you think im scummy for not townreading you

lol.

lmao.

rofl, even

you have fun with that, i'll figure out later if i care

[Sleep]

i think your words do not come from a legitimate place of inquiry and your justifications for your reasoning are incredibly poor. i do not think you are trying to solve. i think you are trying to give the appearance of doing things without actually doing anything because your goal is to not get voted.

[Sleep]

like what were all those questions for me earlier supposed to be? did any of it actually matter to you? did you care about the answers or were you looking to fill airspace?

[katze]

okay well. if i were mafia i'd absolutely have an easier time pushing HK today after yesterday, but whatever

on the off chance you're just wilding out as a villager then get off your fucking high horse

otherwise carry on, you brought me to F3 for a reason

[katze]

like what were all those questions for me earlier supposed to be? did any of it actually matter to you? did you care about the answers or were you looking to fill airspace?

i asked lylo questions that i've seen work pretty well in the past

both of your answers were fine and better than ~most mafia answers

i specifically pointed out that i thought yours was better

but okay go off ig

[hollowkatt]

i would say that's close to accurate, yes

i feel like...as things went along, i explored alternate theories and presented them but lost the confidence in pushing them strongly. this was kind of like how yesterday i was sussing you but didnt have the courage to go "omg everyone it's hk", and when i tried casing you i lost the will halfway through


i think it was just because it was rvs and you had voted katze, so putting another vote on her would be a wagon. i'm used to a style of play where more often people vote early and move their votes around a lot

Thanks, I appreciate it. Like I told Katze I'll come back to these "weird questions" as soon as I have something I think is legit worth talking about.

[katze]

gira did you ever actually read any of the games i linked you other than the cute one

because if you want to play the "im an obvious villager" game then this f3 is wildly far to how i'd play it as mafia too, lmao

[Sleep]

okay well. if i were mafia i'd absolutely have an easier time pushing HK today after yesterday, but whatever

on the off chance you're just wilding out as a villager then get off your fucking high horse

otherwise carry on, you brought me to F3 for a reason

"if i were mafia" arguments of this type are unpersuasive to me. they are easily manipulated and there are any number of psyhological factors that could be in play as to why you would not want to push hk as mafia. maybe you think you can justify fosing me easier. maybe you are worried about taking on hk and see me as an easier push. maybe you believ by not giving me validation i would work harder to try to get you on my side. i have seen it a lot. so color me unconvinced by this.

i make no apologies for being self-righteous when you are pushing me with incredibly bad arguments. i will stand my ground when i believe it is my place to do so. more often than not when someone comes at me with a case and i smack down all their points and they go "yeah but still" it is because they are mafia. that is what is happening with you right now.


what are you doing right now, what is your headspace, how are you attempting to figure out who is mafia? where is something, anything, that should give me reason to believe you are not mafia?

[Sleep]

gira did you ever actually read any of the games i linked you other than the cute one

because if you want to play the "im an obvious villager" game then this f3 is wildly far to how i'd play it as mafia too, lmao

i am like, 7 pages of the way into dragonvale but it is hard for me to get a ton out of it. generally i look for patterns in play, responses to pressure and partner interactions but obviously not a lot of that last one to go off


and okay - i'm all ears. how would you play this as mafia? why should I believe you are town? i may be coming off as entitled but if i am wrong you are free to be entitled as well

[Sleep]

because i can very much just as easily play the card that I would not have pushed hollowkatt to open the day when you had seemingly stood by your townread if him from yesterday

[Sleep]

i am like, 7 pages of the way into dragonvale but it is hard for me to get a ton out of it. generally i look for patterns in play, responses to pressure and partner interactions but obviously not a lot of that last one to go off


and okay - i'm all ears. how would you play this as mafia? why should I believe you are town? i may be coming off as entitled but if i am wrong you are free to be entitled as well

oh, i did read the endgame of dragonvale as a comparison check to how you have played here. a bunch of busywork wallposts to open the day, some arguments about why you were town, and then kind of hanging back and playing it safe while waiting for one of the town to make the first misstep

[Sleep]

i am logging off to watch tv


i will return tomorrow

[katze]

i make no apologies for being self-righteous when you are pushing me with incredibly bad arguments. i will stand my ground when i believe it is my place to do so. more often than not when someone comes at me with a case and i smack down all their points and they go "yeah but still" it is because they are mafia. that is what is happening with you right now.


what are you doing right now, what is your headspace, how are you attempting to figure out who is mafia? where is something, anything, that should give me reason to believe you are not mafia?

i don't believe you're "smacking down" my points at all... i think your interactions with ender can easily be w/w, you disagree. okay, i'm not going to lay it all out. it's not going to convince you that you're a wolf if you're not one and if you are one then you're just going to say "how is that ever aligned" anyway. there's no fucking point. i've already said... three times now? that i'll evaluate your interactions with ladd closer. because i do believe that, if there is anything i can glean from dead wolves that can help me find you, it is that.

...with that said i have not gotten around to this yet and don't reallly intend on changing that right now.

what i am doing right now is being here. not very much more. i'm here because i have the game stuck on my mind. i'd love to just go back to playing video games but alas. i don't really have that much motivation to Do Much right now. so i'm not forcing myself to. i'm engaging with you on the off chance you are a villager because i don't want to throw the game because i'm petty. i've spent most of this day phase trying to figure who the imposter among us is, i've reread the entirety of your D1 and D2 ISOs and asked questions i thought would give me the most AI answers. i'm engaging with the thread because i read players largely off of realtiming and vibes.

i'll answer the last question with the next post because they're tangentially related anyway

i am like, 7 pages of the way into dragonvale but it is hard for me to get a ton out of it. generally i look for patterns in play, responses to pressure and partner interactions but obviously not a lot of that last one to go off


and okay - i'm all ears. how would you play this as mafia? why should I believe you are town? i may be coming off as entitled but if i am wrong you are free to be entitled as well

why am i town? because my rolecard says so! badum-tss

okay fine. my wolf game is mostly like... effort. a wim machine. i'm not going to say "i'm a villager because it's obvious i don't really care that much this game" but it's probably true. im not going to say "im a villager because dobby had more posts than me" but it's probably also true. at multiple points during this game i asked to be killed because i didn't want to be here. obviously that's wifom, but i don't think i try to argue with the confirmed town sorcerer about how i'm an optimal bomb target as mafia because... they might just take it seriously, lol.

as hollowkatt said i'm very much so a people pleaser as mafia. although i've honestly grown to be more of one as town too, because i believe strongly in town cohesion and stopping arguments i believe are v/v. (im not saying i cant get into stupid arguments such as this one, because i'm also prone to those. i'd likely be trying harder to)

i'm also pretty cheeky as wolf and like making those "hehe" jokes i can point back to in postgame and say "lol, lmao" and love subtly openwolfing but that's. probably not something that reading my iso during a game can really get you to very often. especially with how often i make stupid jokes as town too.

oh and i also also make a lot of wifomy kills. i think w!me would very likely kill hollowkatt and say it's a framing job or something. in DV i shot a PoEish player N2 just because they were tunneling me. i also killed illario going into LyLo which was the most blatant kill that led to me by a significant margin

what i don't do as mafia is shoot myself in the foot constantly. i don't defend wolves who are dead in the water. i don't constantly say how much i dislike the prospect of the current wagon formations if they're literally all villagers... if town is doing my work for me then i'll fucking let them. especially if i can tell from early on in the game that i'm going to be playing for the long haul, and looking at the dead wolves, i think that was evident by N1 at the latest.

how i would likely play this F3 is take the path that's easier for me. after F5, that path is very likely pushing hollowkatt over you because cape died screaming you're always town and that he's probably the wolf. several villagers have died with you as a very strong townread. i could flat out just quote newcomb and say "lol bye HK" and get away with it. you were appealing to me in a way that i could have very easily pocketed you. i'm not quite sure if i kill dobby over you either but that's a hard perspective to actually think about.

but i'm not really appeasing to anyone. i'm not taking the "easy" path. i'm not doing any of that. i'm responding to you because i'm tired of dealing with you right now. i don't really want to be an ass so i'll leave it at that.

also because at first i thought you were trying to roleplay as illario during MyLo in DV and i kiiiiinda thought it was a bit over the top for a wolf trying to get a gotcha, but you made it clear it wasn't that so shrug.

because i can very much just as easily play the card that I would not have pushed hollowkatt to open the day when you had seemingly stood by your townread if him from yesterday

the difference is that me and HK have been townreading eachother and you have to push one of us

i don't really think w!you can afford to kill hollowkatt over dobby and i absolutely do not think w!you could afford to kill me over anyone

you've swapped over to pushing me while i've given the impression that i think it's you more confidently than i did earlier

[hollowkatt]

because i can very much just as easily play the card that I would not have pushed hollowkatt to open the day when you had seemingly stood by your townread if him from yesterday

except that if you're the wolf you brought me because you could sus me without being questioned too much about it given that you've been tangentially associating me with the wolf team for the last game day or so even as you voted cape yesterday.

Whereas if the last wolf is Katze they brought me because I town read them and would be more likely to vote you instead of Katze.

Basically in Sleep wolf world I'm the mistake you're trying to get across the line and in Katze wolf worlds you're the mistake and I'm the patsy

[katze]

as hollowkatt said i'm very much so a people pleaser as mafia. although i've honestly grown to be more of one as town too, because i believe strongly in town cohesion and stopping arguments i believe are v/v. (im not saying i cant get into stupid arguments such as this one, because i'm also prone to those. i'd likely be trying harder to)

oop

i forgot what my thought was when i typed that but i think it was along the lines of "change your mind instead of further instigating you"

[hollowkatt]

Katze posting two above this one gives me something to think about.

I think Katze is right that wolf?Sleep can't afford to kill me and take Dobby/Katze. They can't afford to kill Katze and take Me/Dobby. They have to kill Dobby last night and go with Me/Katze.

Katze on the other hand could have killed Dobby to take Me/Sleep where I'm the pocketed one and Sleep is the victim.
But Alternately they could have killed Sleep and taken Me/Dobby where Dobby is then forced to re-evaluate whether or not I'm more or less town than Katze is.

I miss Raskol, he'd know what to do.

There also is this post from Dobby, his last one of any real content before the end of the day

im not gonna have time for more


if i do a prio order based on what i have right this moment id say cape -> katze -> sleep -> hk still


the hk read is mainly based on the ender interactions and if i had time to read more of hk i mightve placed him much lower.

where he clearly says he'd go Katze next.

So then the question becomes "does Katze have the cojones to kill the person who says they're next" vs "is the dobby kill meant to make Katze look worse".

There's also this post from Cape:

ugh, this wolf is deep but it's obviously katze or HK

5 days ago I said this:

I'm fairly confident it's not Katze or Cape.
You're obvs town and die tonight
Dobby is also obvs town and should die after you.

Benneh died b/c he was the towniest of all of us.

and the only people who were alive at the time that aren't mentioned are Raskol who I was responding to, and Sleep who goes unmentioned, and finally cuth who was the chop that day.

I have no idea where I was going with this tbh

[hollowkatt]

moar

cape also says here 2973 that if F3 contains Sleep that the other two should cross vote.

Cape is also quoting a dobby post that I talk about next:

Dobby otoh was pretty convinced I make F3 but am town (which is why dobby is dead tbh), that Katze looks decent off the backs of digging into people in what looks like genuine ways, and has ender interactions where it reads like ender is trying to pocket katze with focus on persuading katze of stuff in situations that don't make sense for a w/w pairing.

He also says that his re-read of D1 had some pro-Sleep points but that he's been the most lenient against Sleep and if F3 contains the two of them it's the Sleep ISO that would get the deepest dive, but not until then.

[hollowkatt]

man hk played a pretty sick game in f5 back in season 7

I told you I bullied people in my F(x) wolf wins

[hollowkatt]

First of all:

Sleep is probably town. There is a minor assumption that probably isn't good but the nitpicky right off the bat is kinda rand!town IMO and I've just liked their content overall.

It was a fun wagon at the start and the memes were great, but honestly like I would not vote there any time soon.

On the other hand, I have reasons to believe this might be Cape's towngame. Or at least that he does several of the things he's being poked about as both alignments. I recently sussed them hard for a similar game and they were green that game.

Caveat that I haven't actually read a wolf game of theirs.

Oh also, Katze is town too. Lots of good head noddy posts from em. The snarky response about voting them out to Ladd was a meme about lyrical composition.

i lied im lurking

but yeah this post about kat was the post before that readslist (also i thought this was a 15er so someone else is prolly missing too)


yeah this other post im quoting exists too and i only read sleep there but youre in it too so my b (but its still the same read that ive pointed out a few times)

This also exists where Ender is town leaning Sleep and town reading Katze. Neither of which are very good town reads in terms of reasons why. The Cape read is probably the best of the two of them there.

Knowing that one of Sleep/Katze is a partner of Enders.... ugh this is fucking hard ok.

I know that one of the two of you is the last wolf. Katze spent the first part of the day being kinda hands off and meh and letting Sleep do most of the talking. Sleep spent his time focusing on me and didn't really shift attention to Katze till I countered his arguments with things that made him "shook".

So was Sleep anticipating my lackadaisical play during most days leading up to today remaining the same? Or is Sleep the townie who was cocksure it was HK and now that I've fought back he's re-evaluating his worlds?

Or is it Katze who I've been consistently town reading, except for like a day, who's counting on me remaining pocketed and chopping Sleep for the win.

I think though that the things we could "normally" rely on in F3 aren't here to rely on. Votes aren't locked, there's no jockeying for position, no trying to force the wolfiest person to vote first. None of that is available here. We're stuck doing this for 48 hours and minds (and votes) can be changed literally at 47:59 without any penalty.

Because of that nobody is feeling pressured to either get it right or get someone to be wrong. I mean there's still the whole "win or lose" pressure but there's not the voting dance that happens with locked votes.

We've used 24ish hours already, have approximately 24ish hours remain. Of those I plan to sleep for 8-10 of them. So really I've got 14-16 game hours left to make a decision on where I'm landing.

I still don't see a compelling reason to vote for Katze. I am still reading D1/D2, as well as doing some spot checking, and I still have to write my thoughts on the two questions I asked both of you earlier. I'll get to that tonight still.


Sometimes I like to push back from the desk, put my feet up, close my eyes and just have a think about the game. Put away the posts and vibe with my feelings. It doesn't often give me a solve but it does allow me to clear my head of my overly busy thoughts and let me try to put things into a different perspective.

I have some thoughts percolating on the concept of Town Sleep coming into F3 being so convinced I'm the last wolf after helping me chop Cape yesterday but they're not fully formed.

[katze]

thought about the game in the shower ama

and by that i mean i remembered this post

im mulling over those posts and yeah its uh

strange

ender voting newcomb to get momentum there and then pulling it back to cape is strange

because...why would he do that to a partner??


otoh...why would he do it to a villager??

the short answer is probably he just did crazy things to mess with us and futz up associations and reading into it too deeply is going to drain your sanity meter

and im thinking sleep is weirdly fine with trying to shut me down on finding a reason to be v reading cape

shrugze

be back tomorrow

[hollowkatt]

thought about the game in the shower ama

and by that i mean i remembered this post



and im thinking sleep is weirdly fine with trying to shut me down on finding a reason to be v reading cape

shrugze

be back tomorrow

Sparkle$ would say you're lock town b/c the shower tell is never wrong.

[Sleep]

morning

[Sleep]

responding out of order because it was the first thing i saw

I know that one of the two of you is the last wolf. Katze spent the first part of the day being kinda hands off and meh and letting Sleep do most of the talking. Sleep spent his time focusing on me and didn't really shift attention to Katze till I countered his arguments with things that made him "shook".

So was Sleep anticipating my lackadaisical play during most days leading up to today remaining the same? Or is Sleep the townie who was cocksure it was HK and now that I've fought back he's re-evaluating his worlds?

yes that is exactly what happened and its really not hard to tell

i came into today mostly convinced it was you but the way you responded to me was confusing because it didnt seem like scum and tthe posts you made all explaining your mindset all made sense to me

and there's this thing that happens in mafia games sometimes, don't know if you've ever experienced it, but sometimes you get deep in an argument with someone and you're flinging crap at them and going all out and then you just get this feeling that you're wrong and the other person might be town after all and that they believe all the things they are saying and that's what happened with you

Because of that nobody is feeling pressured to either get it right or get someone to be wrong. I mean there's still the whole "win or lose" pressure but there's not the voting dance that happens with locked votes.

uhh speak for yourself on that account because i have been feeling incredibly pressured

I have some thoughts percolating on the concept of Town Sleep coming into F3 being so convinced I'm the last wolf after helping me chop Cape yesterday but they're not fully formed.

well go ahead whenever you're ready

[Sleep]

except that if you're the wolf you brought me because you could sus me without being questioned too much about it given that you've been tangentially associating me with the wolf team for the last game day or so even as you voted cape yesterday.

Whereas if the last wolf is Katze they brought me because I town read them and would be more likely to vote you instead of Katze.

Basically in Sleep wolf world I'm the mistake you're trying to get across the line and in Katze wolf worlds you're the mistake and I'm the patsy

the point i am trying to make is that i pick fights i believe i can win, which would...not be you