Sufjan 10er [Game Thread]

[Mischief]

fwiw I think you're expecting a lot out of visor, mischief. In the last game we played together, i didnt really recall your exact play and it was hard to use meta on you as a result. don't you think it could be the same for visor here? why have expectations about how you specifically play when you had a long hiatus?

That is true, I was gone for quite a while, so perhaps I am being a bit unfair in that respect.
I don't retain meta enormously well either, so I'm fairly certain I had something of a reset upon returning.
I'll unvote for now and mull it over.
​unvote: Visor

[dyachei]

That is true, I was gone for quite a while, so perhaps I am being a bit unfair in that respect.
I don't retain meta enormously well either, so I'm fairly certain I had something of a reset upon returning.
I'll unvote for now and mull it over.
​unvote: Visor

i mean vote him if you want to, but I just thought your reasoning was a bit much

[Raskolnikov]

vote: Visor

Reason: I don't believe that this is a real read from you.
We have played over the course of 6 years, during that time you have seen a plethora of games from me from both sides, on both sides.
The stiff writing style comment might resonate with someone entirely unfamiliar with me, since I have literally received comments players who didn't know me about it in the last two full games I have played (on MU, and can link if needed. One wolf game, and one as village PR).
Additionally, it is something people have commented on when unfamiliar at other points in the past.
It is something that is not alignment indicative at all, and someone who has played with me not just a few quite quite a few times, would know this well.
Someone with that much experience would also be well aware of the fact I've never been much of an interrogative player, but rather than observational player, with questions forming more sparsely when I have more to work with.
This is a consistent enough fact about me that it could even be used to describe my social style as a whole. (which is probably not great, but c'est la viei)
Lastly, I am less committal on reads than I am as wolf, by a pretty fair margin, especially with such minimal information as is present in a lower volume game.

Conclusion: you are voting me for things that are either not alignment indicative or are in my villa range, and while I would be perfectly fine with a vote for me based on a legitimate case or grievance, I see no legitimacy in this, thus you are a wolf.

That is true, I was gone for quite a while, so perhaps I am being a bit unfair in that respect.
I don't retain meta enormously well either, so I'm fairly certain I had something of a reset upon returning.
I'll unvote for now and mull it over.
​unvote: Visor

I don't like this unvote: the strenght and articulation of the read don't go well with the quick turnaround when called out about it. Also the bold sentence doesn't come from the same brain who wrote the first post lol.

[Raskolnikov]

vote: Mischief

[Raskolnikov]

Taffy still a wolf. Lanfantana would like to come back to chat (fun fact brought by Raskol - chat is the French word for cat)

lol Sunbae (sorry I can't articulate this read better tbh. but this is my guenine reaction to your vote when I return and explain where I am about Lanfantana -since you asked - and you vote me)

Dya null
visor null
Ender light villa (for tiny reasons, but I can generally accuratly read him scum when he is, and I am not pinged yet so there is that)
Ephe prolly villa (this is a bad activity read)

insomnia prolly not ww with lanfantana.

[Ephemeral]

Taffy still a wolf. Lanfantana would like to come back to chat (fun fact brought by Raskol - chat is the French word for cat)

lol Sunbae (sorry I can't articulate this read better tbh. but this is my guenine reaction to your vote when I return and explain where I am about Lanfantana -since you asked - and you vote me)

Dya null
visor null
Ender light villa (for tiny reasons, but I can generally accuratly read him scum when he is, and I am not pinged yet so there is that)
Ephe prolly villa (this is a bad activity read)

insomnia prolly not ww with lanfantana.

i am confusion

[Raskolnikov]

i am confusion

you 0 post as a wolf?

[Ephemeral]

you 0 post as a wolf?

fairly certain i don't have any kind of activity tells that lean either way

so where'd you get that from?

[Raskolnikov]

fairly certain i don't have any kind of activity tells that lean either way

so where'd you get that from?

dunno tbh. I read games and you don't seem to be that kind of person to potato as a wolf.

[Raskolnikov]

but y, it's a bad read lol (I guess irl happens)

[Ephemeral]

but y, it's a bad read lol (I guess irl happens)

pretty much the bolded yes

I take issue with it entirely because I can't think of anything historically that would prompt someone to read me in that direction so it looks like the read is tacked on there just because, as opposed to it being a real read you'd form on any reasonable basis

[Raskolnikov]

Beside, I specifically said it was a bad read, so don't make it sound like it is a big thing

[Raskolnikov]

@taffy: "my read on Sunbae btw is ?probably town, because they described their wolf play as nefarious and slimy and none of their posts feel that way?"

I was reading your post and found this lol. Are you serious?

[Lantana]

i am confusion

poe is rask taffy ender and is confused at rask town-reading him. could be w/w too

[Raskolnikov]

poe is rask taffy ender and is confused at rask town-reading him. could be w/w too

that's meta. or me being wrong.

[Zack]

Day 1 is over. DO NOT POST.

few minutes to double check votecount

[Sunbae]

Vote: Insomnia

I'm going to separate this post from the one on the overview of everyone else. After getting the chance to reread the thread I think the wolf is Insomnia via interactions with Lan in both directions, the wolf case Insom provided, and overall poe from the rest of the game (which I'll get to in a post shortly).

1. I believe the way Lan discussed Insomnia throughout the game is partnered. First with the posts dicussing Insom during the end of day.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Vote: Ephemeral

I don't really want to kill visor today; insomnia I was fine with him (by extension raskolnikov saying I was shading insomnia is not nya).
lemme order my reads

I think if Rask w then Insomnia v for the phrasing of MY phrasing to insomnia earlier.
For those not aware of what i'm referring to, insomnia asked me a very weighted question from my point of view, I asked why he did so, and Rask thought my weighted question (whilst answering insomnia's weighted question) was noteworthy. I think i'd see that more from a wolf wanting to cause villager villager violence in general than a villager tuning into a random conversation.
As for what that means for Insom's alignment if Rask is indeed a wolf the same would probably apply (Insom v). Although I say that not having thought of what a wolf alternative would look like #yolo

I'm still living off my take last night where he skipped RVS and got into some pretty immediate shading, I think that's more typically villagery than not, though i'll have to see how I feel about placing him against others (momentarily)

He was asking me a very weighted question!

for the first question, couldn't say for more generalities, for insomnia it wouldn't mean anything for that specific context! if you think otherwise I am all nyas (ears)

Not to subtly defend existing wagons, however,

Can those that are here nya about their Ephe read? I have him way more sus than insomnia at the moment

I may vote you at EOD

In these sections we have a tacked on ?Insomnia I was fine with him?, pushing on Rask and calling Insomnia V if Rask W, defending Insomnia for RVS stage stuff, a post shading Insom for ?a very weighted question? despite calling it v/v violence, way more sus on ephem than insomnia (but not wanting to defend wagons!), and threatening to vote Ender at EOD when wagons are Ender/Insom. These are all posts trying very, very hard to get anyone but Insomnia killed.


2. I think these posts in particular are near-damning given the rest of the posts around it.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Sunbae
Taffy
Mischief
Dyachei
Visorslash
Raskolnikov
Enderwiggin
Ephemeral

Dyachei is probably true null which means I need to find more town reads and/or dyachei needs to be townier

I also had insomnia has my third town but I didn't wanna have him there if he's gonna flip wolf in 10 minutes nya
I def prefer Ephemeral, I can go check his posts again to confirm this (or potentially feel differently )

I'll ignore the ?Insomnia about to flip wolf? part as a reason to leave him off. That can be wifom. This list bottom is the two counterwagons (Ephem, Ender) to Insomnia. At the time the wagons are 4 Insomnia, 3 Ender, 1 Ephemeral. The next lowest is Rask (voting Insomnia). The next lowest is Visor (voting Insomnia). The second highest townread is Taffy. Two posts later a Taffy wagon starts and there is no Taffy defense the way they've defended Insomnia. In fact, they follow up with this post once it starts:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

poe is rask taffy ender and is confused at rask town-reading him. could be w/w too

Now Taffy is in the POE. It's like 15 posts apart. No defense, no explanation, no nothing. This does not read like a wolf trying to position themselves well from a villager flip incoming by defending Insomnia/Taffy. They just threw anyone-but-insomnia under the bus.


3. The way Lan talks to everyone else is different from the way they talk to Insomnia. Posts towards me, visor, ender, dya, mischief are all like, tiptoeing around and being super pleasant/fair/friendly even if it's wolf reads or disagreement. The post towards insomnia is so darn pointed and comes out of nowhere. Bubbly before hand, pointed to insomnia, bubbly afterwards. My read on it is that it's purposefully pointed because it goes nowhere, brings no suspicion, and ends with a hard defense throughout end of day.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Why is your question to me not really phrased as a question but more a demand for information? Am I wrong in thinking there isn?t some negative weight to the demand?

Nya if I misread!

I didn?t really have a particular reason for Raskolnikov nor was it to generate discussion either! Though it?s always nice when life delivers lemons as is the case right now :3

checks out, I?m fine with a lower volume game personally and tend to post way too much now. This will be a good lesson regardless of outcome.

Also I think a bubbly = towny description is fine for me at the moment, but I can get quite feisty just for full disclosure. As in? don?t just wolf read me if I am not a single wave bubbly nya

This seems towny. Surface level towny.

On second thoughts I do think a wolf is less likely to express the thought in general and just post lots for the sweet town cred.

So, cool Sunbae.


Getting some nice town reads for the situation

Actually on re-read I retract my v read on visor. I am told he has word salad reads more often as a villager and makes his reads more polished as a wolf, and post 59 looked word salad-y (thereby town meta). If this meta is wrong, blame Katze. That aside though.

His latest string of posting feels like a diplomatic wolf and more closely resembles someone who?s acutely aware of everything they?re posting and the optics. I think this holds true even with meta aside.

Vote visor

Ender can you state your earlier reasons on me (again, if it was done originally...)?

OK visor, will note for next time.

Whoever is interested - just making sure there is no iso button? can't find one. won't be a problem but worth asking.

Mischief what's your Rasko read summarized in one sentence now?

4. I think Insomnia's Rask case was wolfy independently of any other interactions. Throwing all the reasons and credit at my feet despite me never making much of a case at all on Rask nor attempting to get anyone to look into him. I was just voting someone for vibe reasons. Rereading the thread with the knowledge that Lan is a wolf has me more unhappy with it. At the start of the game Insomnia throws out some shade for Lan RVS voting Rask before Rask posted. That's the post that started the whole ?pointed question? thing. Later, once I vote Rask, Insomnia looks over them ?for Sunbae? here and plops a vote down:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

gave rask a re-read #forsunbae. i take issue mostly with the things in red.

the first visor thing seems like a disconnected thought that wouldn't really make it in the same post where he's calling people out (this is a bit nitpicky)

the second thing he drops in "they shaded insomnia" without any explanation for why that should be wolfy. i see no gears spinning that got rask to believe it was from a wolf agenda or to attempt to distinguish between wolf / town motivation. just said lantana did it and it's supposed to be wolfy. also in the same line from the start he frames it as lantana being wolfy for focusing on visor, then he adds the most important part about why that should be wolfy (the katze meta) like it would be a plus to the visor thing. it just doesn't seem..genuine tho im sure there's a better word


normally i'd place this on the backburner and ponder upon but i really have to go and place a vote

Vote : Raskolnikov

i'll be honest i did call this out too, it's def omega weird

In it, one of the reasons for finding Rask wolfy is the shading Insomnia post by Rask about Lan. Then Insomnia follows it up with agreeing with Rask that the Lan post was weird. Despite calling out Lan for that post, having a small pointed exchange, thinking it was weird Lan voted Rask in RVS, and then agreeing with Rask that it was weird, he landed on Rask instead of Lan. Small shade, never developing to anything, voting the person bringing heat to their interaction.

[Visor]

sup rask.

case works for me sunbae

out of curiosity, if insom flips v, who is next for you?

[Visor]

nobody wolfread dya iirc
if dya is correct, wolves are just ender/lantana

ender/mischief/insom are my poe

re mischief and lantana interaction sunbae: it didn't feel to me like there was any real attempt by lantana or mischief to engage with each other. michief had the entry that taffy and i commented on but lantana didnt, (even though lantana saw the posts because they commented on me after that iirc), and the question lantana asked mischief is something that could easily be w/w in that its a very simple fake interaction thingo

the light townread stuff but also never interacting seems weird to me on both ends

[Sunbae]

At :15 the wagons are 3 ender, 3 insomnia, 1 mischief, 1 raskol.

Lan comes in with this vote:

Vote: Ephemeral

I don't really want to kill visor today; insomnia I was fine with him (by extension raskolnikov saying I was shading insomnia is not nya).
lemme order my reads

No other posts about Ephem are made until :40 when Lantana makes this post ?not subtly defending wagons? and asking about Ephem. The wagons are 3 Ender, 3 insomnia, 1 mischief, 1 ephemeral. The earlier Raskol vote was Lan so they just moved:

Not to subtly defend existing wagons, however,

Can those that are here nya about their Ephe read? I have him way more sus than insomnia at the moment

Insomnia takes a 4/3/1 lead over Ender and Ephem with 10 minutes to go. Lan makes this post talking about Insomnia already flipping:

Sunbae
Taffy
Mischief
Dyachei
Visorslash
Raskolnikov
Enderwiggin
Ephemeral

Dyachei is probably true null which means I need to find more town reads and/or dyachei needs to be townier

I also had insomnia has my third town but I didn't wanna have him there if he's gonna flip wolf in 10 minutes nya
I def prefer Ephemeral, I can go check his posts again to confirm this (or potentially feel differently )

With 7 minutes to go Ender votes Ephem and Lantana immediately replies they may vote Ender at eod:

Vote: Ephemeral

Watch me pull a flash wagon out of my hat.

I may vote you at EOD

5 minutes to go Lan says check this wagon if people will actually listen to me:

Alright better check this wagon again if people will actually listen to me lol

3 minutes to go Lan starts tying Ephemeral to Rask as w/w

poe is rask taffy ender and is confused at rask town-reading him. could be w/w too

No more posts are made by Lan about Ephem and instead are spent talking to dya about null reads.





Under a lens of ?what is going on if they are w/w? I think I have a solution: The wagons are all villagers and Lan starts some small distancing. They don't expect anyone to listen to them (hence the ?if people are actually going to listen to me? post later). They've basically flipped Insomnia in their head already so they think this eod is in the clear. When the Ephem wagon gets a bit of steam they immediately shade the person voting Ephem and then start tying Ephem W to Rask W in a ?wait not, don't? and ?well I'll chain these together if it goes bad? way. Then they spend the rest of eod talking to Dya about null reads because they don't want to get more people on Ephem but doesn't want to defend either. If they are willing to want to look right for ?defending wagons? that are going to flip villa it's reasonable they would continue that action and want to look right for voting Ephem while we chopped villagers.


I'm going to Vote: ephemeral


Not being able to figure out why Lan pushed Ephem as wolves was the reason for me to defend Ephem throughout yesterday but I now can see a plausible scenario where it makes sense. Once I have that I can give more weight to the classically villagery things I've been seeing from Visor throughout the game. I've liked his interactions with the wolf way more, I've thought his entire process on Mischief wasn't trying to force a mischop and was genuinely listening and weighing my words vs his reads there, the Nks viewed him as towny, and frankly if I've interacted with him this much and not gotten any bad vibes it's probably just because he's a villager. The alternative is that I got pocketed and I don't want to live in that world so I won't.

[Visor]

here's where i'm at in a nutshell.

I like sunbaes interactions with lantana better. They don't feel like they are on the same wavelength. It feels like sunbaes responses are not matching up perfectly, and they don't seem particularly enthusiastic about doing anything about lantana. They make a village read on them, it carries on through the day. It's a lightish villa read, and sunbae specifically does not have them in the 4 man group that he thinks are much stronger villagers. If sunbae was a wolf and his intention was to townread his partner, i think I would see a greater effort from him to do so. ephemerals interactions with lantana are nonexistent basically, so not much to judge on there. The epehemeral read makes zero sense, has no backing and just comes out of nowhere in a spot where multiple villagers are dying.

you have to ask yourself what is the point of the push at that point in time? there are two options:

a) distancing
b) to kill another villager

in the a) scenario, because this is a vig game, and the wagons were locked up, they decide to engage in a bit distancing to set up their partner in case they are vigged randomly, or need to look good later, its basically a potential get out of jail free card you can pick up later if things go wrong for either of you.
b) theoretically yes, this is viable. It is also pointless. they ALREADY wolfread enderwiggin for most of the day. they don't need to switch. maybe they wanted to look like they cared so they spiced up the eod.

it is possible they just thought ephemeral was an easy push so they decided to push the wagon. but it is weird how they handled it, theres no real build up to it, theres no i wolfread eph for this, its just out of the blue

I note a POE of Rasko Ender and Taffy written in your reads list but no comments on Taffy's bigger post that immediately followed.
(that is wolfy!)

Why no comments? I found it a touch towny on a surface level

is the only background to it.


that said, lantana hard townreading sunbae and sunbae townreading lantana does hurt my soul a little.

so the question is, do i think its a bus or a push? it doesn't make a lot of sense as a real bus, and they don't seem comfortable on the wagon. but it also doesnt really make sense as a random villager kill because the villager they already wanted to kill was top wagon. so i leans towards it looking like distancing in a situation where they thought they could get away with it.

the next question is: the nightkills. dya and raskol.

dya was probably just killed because of lantana read + good player. they didnt really mention sunbae or ephemeral.

why was raskol killed? because he claimed vig? because the wolf didn't believe insomnia? this kinda points towards sunbae wrt not believing insomnia, though if i was a wolf in sunbaes shoes and i was pushing against insomnia, i might be tempted to kill insomnia because it wouldnt make sense from my pov in thread and ppl may village read it.

raskol expresses some suspiscion towards eph d2, and some tinfoil towards sunbae

i think i lean towards the wolf not believing insomnia - which means they killed raskol.

which might lean towards sunbae as a wolf.

as an overall point i think sunbae has been more villagery in thread than ephemeral. there are some sunbae posts that set the sirens going off (the i townread lantana post eod1, their relentless push of insomnia (though i can hardly blame him)).

basically:

raskol kill points to sunbae
overall posting points to eph
eod1 is.... kinda half points to eph

its a tough call, theres not a huge amount to read eph on this game. i think sunbae has been villagerier and if he is the wolf here, well, well done, you can stop claiming i can read you well :P

im not sold on my thoughts here, i can def see lantana just pushing another villager because they thought itd look good/could get away with it, but their weird hangups around eph actually dying skeeved me out as i mentioned yday

anyway ymmv, thats what im thinking rn. i need to reread over d2 a bit more.

i am hoping that either way, you dont shoot me cause i think i have by far the best interactions and i think ive done an okay job of solving evne if my results have not been great lol :P

[Lantana]

Taffy still a wolf. Lanfantana would like to come back to chat (fun fact brought by Raskol - chat is the French word for cat)

lol Sunbae (sorry I can't articulate this read better tbh. but this is my guenine reaction to your vote when I return and explain where I am about Lanfantana -since you asked - and you vote me)

Dya null
visor null
Ender light villa (for tiny reasons, but I can generally accuratly read him scum when he is, and I am not pinged yet so there is that)
Ephe prolly villa (this is a bad activity read)

insomnia prolly not ww with lanfantana.

Oui oui

[Lantana]

Taffy still a wolf. Lanfantana would like to come back to chat (fun fact brought by Raskol - chat is the French word for cat)

lol Sunbae (sorry I can't articulate this read better tbh. but this is my guenine reaction to your vote when I return and explain where I am about Lanfantana -since you asked - and you vote me)

Dya null
visor null
Ender light villa (for tiny reasons, but I can generally accuratly read him scum when he is, and I am not pinged yet so there is that)
Ephe prolly villa (this is a bad activity read)

insomnia prolly not ww with lanfantana.

Salut Raskolnikov, allons parler!

[Mischief]

I don't like this unvote: the strenght and articulation of the read don't go well with the quick turnaround when called out about it. Also the bold sentence doesn't come from the same brain who wrote the first post lol.

There is a lot of context behind all of that.
I have known Visor for years, so I had that reaction, but I was also reminded of the fact that with my extensive break (I left mafia completely and discord groups as well from late 2020 until early this year) may leave people I have known for quite a while with little memory of what my meta is.
That's a fair assessment that was made, and Dya mentioning it has some weight, since we just played a game, and I could see some truth in them saying they didn't remember my meta well going into that game, drawing a parallel between her position and Visor's.
I unvoted and mulled it over, and concluded over a bowl of tonkotsu ramen that I was probably playing unreasonable expectations upon Visor and thus was being unfair in my assessment.
My initial assessment of Visor would absolutely stand in such a case as Visor having a distinct idea of my play, but given the amount of time, I can't assume that he would remember it as well as I may have thought he would.

[Raskolnikov]

There is a lot of context behind all of that.
I have known Visor for years, so I had that reaction, but I was also reminded of the fact that with my extensive break (I left mafia completely and discord groups as well from late 2020 until early this year) may leave people I have known for quite a while with little memory of what my meta is.
That's a fair assessment that was made, and Dya mentioning it has some weight, since we just played a game, and I could see some truth in them saying they didn't remember my meta well going into that game, drawing a parallel between her position and Visor's.
I unvoted and mulled it over, and concluded over a bowl of tonkotsu ramen that I was probably playing unreasonable expectations upon Visor and thus was being unfair in my assessment.
My initial assessment of Visor would absolutely stand in such a case as Visor having a distinct idea of my play, but given the amount of time, I can't assume that he would remember it as well as I may have thought he would.

thanks for the context :)

I'd like to hear what @Visorslash thinks about it I guess. (we are all different and I want to know if he believes you here)