This is Football! (Closed 10er)

[Cape90]

well i am very glad you didnt cc lol


Vote: cuth

Before I digest your large post

Why are you glad cuth didn't cc here? If cuth did cc, it wouldn't be hard for you to just kill cuth over me right? I have like 10 more reasons why I killed benneh, okay (other then I tinfoil him every single mid game to a probably annoying level every time we are both town together, sorry benneh)? I could tell all about that and I think my thought process would be more unfakeable then Cuth, if w!cuth actually dared challenge me on that claim.

+you were townreading me earlier in the game very hard and were sussing cuth from before

[Cuthillius]

my argument lies in both me and visor are more pushable, also saying that jan was obviously not PR is total WIFOM, I had other ppl in mind that spewed themselves not PR at all. Like thinking about it from the POV of t!Jan pushing w!you and let's say im the decider as you argue you would have killed Visor as wolf, I would have an easier time killing you then Jan in that match up

this is why I find your logic to be questionable

which is why i've been run up as a wagon at eod two days in a row lol?

also i didn't think you were ~ever pr so i probably would have expected to yeet you/benneh with jan/benneh in that f4/3 shrugs

all of that sounds way more reasonable than bringing visor into that situation

also i maintain that jan wasn't playing like a pr at all

[Cuthillius]

also i categorically disagree that visor is more pushable than jan would have been; dude dumpstered baudib while jan like didn't vote d1 and then voted a villager eod2

but it's kinda irrelevant atp

[Cape90]

okay @Cape90

i am going to the mountains tomorrow (for real, this isnt a euphemism) so i will not be super around for the day phase, though i will check in mornings and nights

let me lay out some shit (that ive already said)

first: cuths eod1 is really bad, the hard pushign of pzelda without conisderation fo other wagons (i already went over this yesterday)

second: i was like the first person to push baudib and i flipped a town read on him completely unnecessarily to make him a wagon when the whole game was townreading him

third: cuth made an awful push on taffy beacuse taffy is easy to misskill, (just ask me, ive done it plenty of times lmao)

yes this is a lower effort game from me, and i haven't been super forthright and playing hard, but i don't think my play has been unreadable

the fact is, I wolfed against baudib on here a while back, and he was a constant inquisitive thorn in my side, constantly trying to put the puzzle together

here he had an opening with joie de vivre, which led me to townreading him initially, but when i realised that hey, he isn't actually DOING anything to push the game forward, i was like nah bro passive af cya l8r fr fr 100 no cap bless up or whatever the kids say these days

he replied to a bunch of stuff but he wasnt engaging in the act of genuine solving



when it comes to cuth, my initial dislike of his posts stem from some of his overly wordy (poetry) posts which felt like pontificating on rubbish

and then i read over the rest of his posts and agreed with myself (wow) (and his d1 abotu pzelda/naudib was really bad)

but the kernel of everything is simply d1 imo, its the purest day. my progression on baudib is much purer than cuths and thats all that matters.

1. Yes I agree that it was pretty bad, slightly awkward. I'm kind of in this tug o war state whether cuth would actually push baud like that day 1, like obviously between the both of you there at least was some distancing going on, but I agree that the pzelda thing and the way cuth handled it looked sus.

2. I still think you are giving yourself way too much credit for baud, and also it misreps the fact that the whole town was townreading baud, as dyachei wasn't and actually came in with tangible evidence to support their claim. Not to mention that both you and baud were kinda doing this back and forth with like baud saying "Visor wolf" and you saying "baud wolf". The real people who put real leverage behind the baud push day 2, I'd argue, was benneh who voted them immediately into that day, and myself who even put a whole wall out for Rask to ignore.

3. That's part of the I killed benneh, he wasn't wolf.

I believe dyachei really said the whole moving the game forward argument first against baud.

Also I usually find cuth more wordy honestly, I felt like they were kind of lacking huge text walls that I have seen from their previous town games.

Also what you said about "purity" pings me, like it just seems like a moot point to bring up, like if you are town you ALREADY KNOW your thought process is pure and Cuth's isn't, it's kind of a given. IDK seems a little concerned about image to me?

I apologize for being pedantic here, also I am not too sure I have liked Cuth's focus today, or what they said yesterday about "oh but tomorrow i will have enough energy to towntell". Like ofc this is what mafia would want, to try to project towniness and stall out town from voting them yesterday ago.

[Cuthillius]

that wasn't to stall town out from voting me

that was just things seemed pretty straightforward to me after rereading at eod and nobody was doing anything else about it

i get that you knew benneh wasn't pr but visor bussed and benneh had pr cover and the gemma kill didn't make sense from you and you were villagery d1 and jan was villagery and nobody was working hard to do anything else

which again makes sense knowing what i know now but also kinda made sense with taffy!w

and i thought i'd been plenty villagery earlier

and i sure as hell didn't think i'd end up in an f3 vs visor with you as a clear pr lol or i wouldn't have been so cocksure

i was like 90% sure i was never dying yesterday and if i was i would have taken absolutely zero responsibility for a town loss at that point

[Cuthillius]

i'm going to the mountains tomorrow too btw (this is a euphemism)

[Cape90]

this feels like a pzelda wolf threadstate tbhtbh

Cuth if you found the threadstate to lead to pzelda being wolf, does that mean you didn't believe in your wolf read on baud at all?

[Cape90]

i dunno if id call his post getting down to business

(also dont really have a problem with contradictory behaviour (that said, id love to see moer from him))

im thinking of flipping my read on baudib, feels really passive

Vote: Baudib

also nvm you did talk about your read on baud visor

[Cuthillius]

Cuth if you found the threadstate to lead to pzelda being wolf, does that mean you didn't believe in your wolf read on baud at all?

i didn't really have a wolfread on baud at that time i think

iirc he was in my bottom non-pzelda pool with visor and jan or someone else

i think he was probably a slight w-read at most but one i'd be down to kill if pz flipped v (and maybe if w? but i don't know that i thought about that very much) as of eod there tempered with caution around visor specifically

pzelda flipping v and dya dying and his posts sod2 being terrible and floundery tipped it over for me i wasn't immediately on the train d2

[Cape90]

honestly looking in the early game there were many things that cleared Jan so I am really really not sure im buying Cuth

at the same time, they are objectively socially townier then Visor

But they have also really just "explained" what visor would do as a wolf versus actually going after Visor's content, like i had to point out something to cuth

[Cape90]

i mean if i knew you were v and benneh wasn't pr i'd probably have shot him too, so it seems fine to me? you were never gonna shoot visor (nor would i have)

looking back at this thought it's so disjointed and confused

i would have always shot visor last night

doing otherwise would be suicide 95% of the time

and i actually did think he was most likely pr (with an off-chance of benneh, wp on your part)

you talk about how you would have shot visor if you were wolf (i thought it was about if you were vig in my shoes).

But you circle back to that thought with the "off chance" thing on benneh being PR?

You didn't think benneh was wolf and you obviously know that I know that I am PR and that Visor is not, I got confused and I thought you were saying that I should have shot Visor and not benneh, but there was an off chance that benneh was wolf.

But you complimenting me for my vig shot still make literally no sense because im not wolf and im trying to kill wolf

[Cuthillius]

honestly looking in the early game there were many things that cleared Jan so I am really really not sure im buying Cuth

at the same time, they are objectively socially townier then Visor

But they have also really just "explained" what visor would do as a wolf versus actually going after Visor's content, like i had to point out something to cuth

what do you want me to do lol visor's literally played this game so he could point at his play and be like hey i bussed my teammate and cuth didn't try to kill baudib as hard as i did

more to the point jan wasn't fucking hellbent on killing me like visor was and also, and i can't emphasize this point enough, obviously not playing like a pr and thus killing him over visor would be signing a death sentence because i'd end up here where visor's gonna try to kill me no matter who's a pr

why would i want to be here right now as a wolf

maybe MAYBE visor is more pushable than jan though again he orchestrated his entire game to look spotless but at least i have some chance of getting one of y'all to vote each other

get out of your pr head for a second and look at a hypothetical me!w perspective where i don't know you're a pr and literally the only reason i could ever get away with not killing visor would be if i was confident i'd hit a pr

maybe you disagree with me that jan wasn't playing like a pr but there's no world in which i shoot someone who doesn't have a high probability of being a pr over visor, because again visor's been trying to get me yeeted over baud (arguably) and taffy (inarguably) for days, both of which are even easier wins for him, and if someone else is a pr then i have to argue against v!visor in this exact situation, which has felt absolutely hopeless from the start

and that's with knowing i'm town

[Cuthillius]

looking back at this thought it's so disjointed and confused



you talk about how you would have shot visor if you were wolf (i thought it was about if you were vig in my shoes).

But you circle back to that thought with the "off chance" thing on benneh being PR?

You didn't think benneh was wolf and you obviously know that I know that I am PR and that Visor is not, I got confused and I thought you were saying that I should have shot Visor and not benneh, but there was an off chance that benneh was wolf.

But you complimenting me for my vig shot still make literally no sense because im not wolf and im trying to kill wolf

i'm not fucking complimenting you for it i'm just saying from your pov it makes sense

i mentioned shooting visor because objectively it would have been the correct move and thus better than what you did but neither of us would have known that last night so it's a moot point

apart from that specific post in the first quote when i've been talking about shooting visor (as in the second post) i've been talking about why i'm not a wolf because i don't have a death wish and thus i would have NKed visor here ~always

[Cuthillius]

does it look like i'm having fun? does it look like i'd wish this situation on myself?

[Cape90]

to me the night kills were predictable and straightforward

Gemma was spewed from baud and was ultra towny d2
Jan has been towny like all game to a clearing degree for me, like if a wolf brought Jan to a final 3, I am almost never voting there, maybe I wasn't transparently clear on that to be fair as I was big lurking days 2 and 3.

But that's also me thinking of the night kills DETACHED from whether I think x person is PR or not

There is something that really rubs me the wrong way about your entire wall you just posted cuth regardless of everything I just said and IDK if I should spell it out or keep it cryptic.

Actually heck it, if I keep it cryptic, I'm not finding you

You have spent a lot of your self defense on Jan talking about Jan obviously not being PR (with 0 receipts by the way). To me all this soul searching for who is PR and who isn't PR sounds like a wolves problem and not towns problem

[Cape90]

does it look like i'm having fun? does it look like i'd wish this situation on myself?

it's a final 3 it's hell for all of us

[Cuthillius]

to me the night kills were predictable and straightforward

Gemma was spewed from baud and was ultra towny d2
Jan has been towny like all game to a clearing degree for me, like if a wolf brought Jan to a final 3, I am almost never voting there, maybe I wasn't transparently clear on that to be fair as I was big lurking days 2 and 3.

But that's also me thinking of the night kills DETACHED from whether I think x person is PR or not

There is something that really rubs me the wrong way about your entire wall you just posted cuth regardless of everything I just said and IDK if I should spell it out or keep it cryptic.

Actually heck it, if I keep it cryptic, I'm not finding you

You have spent a lot of your self defense on Jan talking about Jan obviously not being PR (with 0 receipts by the way). To me all this soul searching for who is PR and who isn't PR sounds like a wolves problem and not towns problem

dude

you think i intentionally put myself in an f4/f3 with visor, who's been trying to kill me since forever and not shown any signs of going anywhere else

even if you think i think jan was a pr and thus a good kill because literally that's the only edge case where this isn't literally suicide you gotta realize that in that world i'd be pushing you

i get that this isn't the strongest defense but idk what the fuck i'm supposed to do because visor did a bus strat and i think it's patently obvious that this would have been shit mechanical play from me as a wolf and is exactly what visor wants as a wolf and i don't know if i can put it any clearer

if you vote me here i get it like i've been assuming i'm dead in the damn water all day

visor bussed hard he got the cred i respect it he can sit there all the live long day and point at how he voted baud earlier and more than i did and how he wasn't wrong on pzelda, who made some wolfy posts, and how i'm wolfy for doing almost exactly what you and taffy and benneh did d1

no persistent hard feelings if you vote wrong here because it would be really damn hard to do anything other than vote me here if i was you i'm sure, but i don't think my point that killing anyone other than visor would be a death wish for me is that obscure dude

[Cuthillius]

the way visor played, he can say look what i did was villagery and what cuth did is therefore wolfy

i can't win that battle, all i can do is explain what was going on my head and also why i would never play the way i have as a wolf

the chips are stacked against me and if you genuinely think i would intentionally ever land myself in this situation where i'm just dead in the water from the start of the round versus one in which visor's dead and i can have a go at misyeeting you or benneh then that's on you but i've spelled it out pretty clearly

[Visor]

Before I digest your large post

Why are you glad cuth didn't cc here? If cuth did cc, it wouldn't be hard for you to just kill cuth over me right? I have like 10 more reasons why I killed benneh, okay (other then I tinfoil him every single mid game to a probably annoying level every time we are both town together, sorry benneh)? I could tell all about that and I think my thought process would be more unfakeable then Cuth, if w!cuth actually dared challenge me on that claim.

+you were townreading me earlier in the game very hard and were sussing cuth from before

yes i wouldve very likely have just voted cuth and been done with it

but i wouldve had to genuinely contend with the potential that i was very wrong and you kept me alive because i was hard townreading you (and also hard wolfreading cuth)

i may be lazy when i play but i would've definitely considered the world where i was wrong, even if it is extremely likely i still wouldve voted cuth in a theoretical cc

[Visor]

1. Yes I agree that it was pretty bad, slightly awkward. I'm kind of in this tug o war state whether cuth would actually push baud like that day 1, like obviously between the both of you there at least was some distancing going on, but I agree that the pzelda thing and the way cuth handled it looked sus.

2. I still think you are giving yourself way too much credit for baud, and also it misreps the fact that the whole town was townreading baud, as dyachei wasn't and actually came in with tangible evidence to support their claim. Not to mention that both you and baud were kinda doing this back and forth with like baud saying "Visor wolf" and you saying "baud wolf". The real people who put real leverage behind the baud push day 2, I'd argue, was benneh who voted them immediately into that day, and myself who even put a whole wall out for Rask to ignore.

3. That's part of the I killed benneh, he wasn't wolf.

I believe dyachei really said the whole moving the game forward argument first against baud.

Also I usually find cuth more wordy honestly, I felt like they were kind of lacking huge text walls that I have seen from their previous town games.

Also what you said about "purity" pings me, like it just seems like a moot point to bring up, like if you are town you ALREADY KNOW your thought process is pure and Cuth's isn't, it's kind of a given. IDK seems a little concerned about image to me?

I apologize for being pedantic here, also I am not too sure I have liked Cuth's focus today, or what they said yesterday about "oh but tomorrow i will have enough energy to towntell". Like ofc this is what mafia would want, to try to project towniness and stall out town from voting them yesterday ago.

i woud like to state for the record, i dont think it is possible to call what i did to baudib distancing

i just straight up ushed him and asked the thread to kill him after i flipped my town read on him lol

2. note the timestamps, dyachei came back with an actual push only after i voted him

(eta: i checked to make sure, and i found this prior to my post, but i don't remember seeing it LOL "I'm a bit concerned about baudib because he seems so rational this game. I think you might be v but not ready to commit to that " and don't think it pushes baudib anyway, just hmmming about him)

post 230 i vote him, post 246 dya pushes baudib

3. yeah but benneh is bad at ww LOL (im joking benneh, you're actually terrible)

i will concede that you may find what dyachei said more valuable than what i did, ymmv and that i didnt give a shit about really laying out evidence i just keep telling people tp kill him, which is fair lol

re purity: i said that line to distill the essence of what i believe the pivotal moment of this game to be

i will say the d2 push means nothing to me

dya died after directly pyshing baudib with me, baudib barely tried at all

[Visor]

honestly looking in the early game there were many things that cleared Jan so I am really really not sure im buying Cuth

at the same time, they are objectively socially townier then Visor

But they have also really just "explained" what visor would do as a wolf versus actually going after Visor's content, like i had to point out something to cuth

yes they objectively 'posted more and had more 'solving' posts' if you want to call it that but it doesn't change the actual actions of the game

wolves can post 'solving content' too lol

[Visor]

also his solving posts are bad like i already said lol

[Visor]

im gonna be real all these talk of nightkills

i haven't thought about them for a second LOL i was just annoyed baudib wasn't dead d1 after dya flipped and then annoyed i wasn't dead after baudib flipped

[Visor]

baudib only gets heat because dya and i make him a potential wagon

cuth was happy to push forward on pzelda and lock us into it

idk fellas none of this shit means anything to me

just looks like going through motions, when they couldve voted baudib even just to see what wagons would result but they were firm on pzelda and i dont even recall why beyond the obvious of which other villagers expressed reluctance but cuth never wavered

if i am wrong, cest la vie

you're not going to shame me out of my opinion lol

this is my favourite post of mine in the game

cuth revved up the emotional appeal angle i just said yeet

(also if we're posting dumb dead villager stuff jan tr me far more than cuth LOL)

gonna be real i don't have much left to add, i think i have said everything of value that needed to be said and i don't give a shit about playing an appeal game

you have all the information cape

ill be around for a bit, some tonight and some tomorrow morning american time but i dunno if theres anythign left to discuss

[Visor]

also i maintain that the tenor in thread was weird late d1 and is indicative of a wolf team that for whatever reason was sitting on their hands? i guess i haven't really reread it in the context of baud w but it felt like everyone was sitting around in a circle waiting to see what would happen but without deeply caring about what would happen

taffy can you talk about why cape would be tonight's nk in your mind?

lmao all this posting is just busy work lol

[Visor]

i'm frankly kinda pissed about you saying you think i'm a wolf and then not posting for 24 hours

it's bad and irresponsible and wie gesagt i think we're in a fine place but not if you yeet me lol

Y E E T
E
E
T

[Visor]

I could see what Visor did yesterday when he was jumping on voting Cuth day 2 as trying to distract from baudib



To me I read as this as Visor thinking Cuth isn't paired with baudib

So it mildly worries me that he's voting there today



though he popped in to say this, and... I don't really get the argument here? I thought the EOD was fine... kinda panicky, eh

it was panicky

and bad

and his other posts were bad

thank you for coming to my ted talk

[Visor]

you know, this feels really fake so idk maybe it's just cuth

I kinda TR Taffy's entrance today

i don't agree, because i think i can post myself clear tomorrow

but regardless i don't really see you trying to find a wolf here and also you're voting me

i've talked through my reasoning on everyone else at least a little bit today if you have issues with any of my reasonings for calling other people v i'd be happy to chat about it

Then why aren't you posting yourself clear now?

~Kettle

I'm voting you bc Visor asked nicely, he was right about Baudib and since my death is part of the wolf's path to victory, there's an above-average chance that they'd push me today.

But fair point.

good posts by taffy

[Visor]

heres the thing cape

we both pushed baudib (cuth and i)

i pushed him on D1 and D2 (before anyone else said a mean word about him!)

cuth pushed him on d2 when he was in prime bus mode (in fact its exactly what i would have done in his situation, get the villager kill d1, ride the bus d2, use credit, win game) that is the typical wolf bus in this scenario

ww is an inherently probabilistic game #gad

surely you have seen wolves do exactly what cuth has done every game. through the lens of optimal wolf play thats just what you do, you take the available villager kills and then when you recognise your pals time is up, you drive the bus, grasp the credit and use it to get the next villager dead, rinse repeat

you could argue that my play also works for wolves (esp given i am alive in f3 i guess), but that just falls into the trap of just because something is possible and might be true, doesn't make it true. yes all thigns are theoretically possible in this game, but my play doesn't make sense as a pairing because i could have just kept townreading baudib and there was no reason for me to switch onto him except for the fact that i had a genuine belief that he was a wolf. my play is not of the person who is playing for f3, i have not played a smooth game (mostly just a lazy one, lol).

i could've just townread baudib and pushed pzelda - lord knows i did actually look at his (pzelda) posts, thinking they weren't great and then rescinded the thought, asking for him to post - all of that obviously not a pro wolf agenda, given pzelda v and baudib w

cuths play doesn;t speak to a villager who genuinely came to a conclusion that baudib was a wolf, it speaks as a wolf riding the bus onto a dead teammate after they knew they had to cut bait.

i will once again reiterate that cuths eod tells you all you need to know. it is focused not on making the correct decision or coming to a correct conclusion, but by reinforcing the status quo of a villager dying over a wolf.

he did not post with any genuine concern about the state of the wagons or the other players

it was abotu locking in pzelda as the kill.

anyway, i'm off to the mountains, see yall tonight if i have service

glglgl

[Cape90]

Vote: Cuthillius

I really should not have killed benneh
wtf was i doing

If you are town cuth, I will say this was closer then you are making it out to be. Felt like you were trying to shame me into voting Visor though
i hammer gl gl