17er Saints and Martyrs

[Raskolnikov]

well I kindof don't wanna too, because you are going to call me obvious wolf for EOD5

Keep up the good work though ;)

[Arctic]

@Hally how about i'll let you have 1 non-wisdom elim today

it's vanta or dya i assume

but after that, if the game doesn't end, unless you explain to me why wisdom is town outside of the nonsensical "they don't have a plan here as wolf" (none of the wolves did btw lmfao i mean look at syn, visor, and then the closest thing would be gemma rolling with a claim that was still gonna end up guaranteeing their death) then we're going to kill them

and this isn't even true anymore
look at their read on me
they tried pairing me with gemma, then after everyone says i'm town quickly forgot about it, and now after sheeping your case on dya i'm suddenly back in her poe again and you're not, a poe of 3 people, which is enough elims to win, and they can very easily get vanta killed afterwards so they have a clear path to f3

[Arctic]

I read it through though and I buy it.

Mostly because I don't really wolf read Vanta as much as I couldn’t see anyone else be possible wolf, I even town cased her earlier.

Hally's lock town btw! See, I didn't need to case you after all. Ender is as well. And I town read Benneh. Leaving Arctic/Dya/Vanta.

Something about Arctic that Hally didn't mention is how Dya doesn't really seem to care about their earlier hard wolf read on Arctic anymore. And yeah progression reads are dumb but I've gotten the vibe that they lock onto a train of thought for the moment without really weaving it into previous thoughts. I don't really know Dya's play enough to say it's wolfy for them though, but it vibes wolfy to me. I've moved them up and down on my list a lot because I tend to fing aggro towny and they seem genuinely upset getting pushed or misunderstood, but at the same time they're not in my Vibe (which Benneh and Hally has been for a while and so was GH and Logic).

Anyway, I'm sorry if this is upsetting but

Vote: Dyachei

like come on now lol

[dyachei]

I kindly disagree Dya, because

- the state of your reads at EOD1 (u even replied to Ladd you and GH were the main "resistors" to Syn's wagon because you weren't seeing the things we were pointing at)
- again, there is no way you convince me Gemma had any chance to go over D1. (so the argument "I am not chopping a PR over a goon" isn't valid to me)

Gemma had a chance. Even gh was thinking about going her.

[dyachei]

I'm worried about vanta not as worried about ender. Worried about wisdom.

Hally concerns me though because her case is obviously biased. Just things to keep in mind because very few people are solving when I flip v and are hoping this ends the game (hint it doesn't)

[Arctic]

dya also tells people not to kill benneh EoD2 and stay the course on visor. probably their most pro-town moment of the game. the reason i’m not giving cred for it is because they were already town reading benneh and sussing visor, so while they say they could easily have reversed those reads and voted benneh, i think that’s just… not true and w!dya would know that doing so there would be outing. there’s just no way they get away with that, and if dya is a wolf they already knew by EoD2 that they were the one that had to carry so it’s far too much of a gamble when it was far from a guarantee they could get bennen to go over there.

I feel like the best way of handling that eod from wolf me or wolf dya would have been to just keep quietly voting visor but let the benneh elim happen when it seemed like things could have gone that way rather than actively fighting against it

Because I do think wolves would have wanted benneh to die there - we know logic and GH were V, and would have still probably been killed right after visor was, so the benneh elim just gets added on and suddenly wolves actually have a chance

I think some of the rest of your points are valid but they do not really convince me that it is dya. I guess my townread on them is more of a tone vs content thing, same as it was with Logic which ended up being correct. I agree there aren't great reasons to clear them. But I think there are actively better reasons to wolfread wisdom

[Arctic]

I'm back to defending Dya tbh. They have little interaction in early game but Dya's attempt to bring Gemma up as a wolf at the end of day 1 wasn't a great effort, but it isn't in line with what I know for Dya's wolf game. (Specifically bringing a 2nd wolf into a situation that has 1 wolf/1 town as lead wagons.)

yeah this is not really a thing wolves do imo
hally made the argument that it could have been done to make it more likely logic went over without having to vote him since they were repping a townread there (or at least sheeping GH's townread or something) but in my experience this doesn't actually happen

[Arctic]

Wisdom also doesn't really have interactions but... also never was really in thread at the same time usually so idk how to read that.

I could be offtrack.

Gemma interacted with wisdom in a similar way to all of her partners but only like once
Randomly said sup and "I pinged you in wolf chat" or something (which imo a wolf would not say about another villager since it'd risk spewing them v, and reads antispew to me) and spoke about something completely inconsequential like how wisdom should be townreading benneh more? and that was their only interaction

[Wisdom]

If anyone can check the flipped wolves' interactions with and reads on Dya that'd be nice

I might have time to tomorrow otherwise

[Hally]

Hally why are you like this

i ask my therapist that question all the time

[EnderWiggin]

I'm crashing now but I just wanted to add that Benneh being all "omg I have the same read!" with Zack still gives me the voting twitchies.

[Hally]

I read it through though and I buy it.

Mostly because I don't really wolf read Vanta as much as I couldn’t see anyone else be possible wolf, I even town cased her earlier.

Hally's lock town btw! See, I didn't need to case you after all. Ender is as well. And I town read Benneh. Leaving Arctic/Dya/Vanta.

Something about Arctic that Hally didn't mention is how Dya doesn't really seem to care about their earlier hard wolf read on Arctic anymore. And yeah progression reads are dumb but I've gotten the vibe that they lock onto a train of thought for the moment without really weaving it into previous thoughts. I don't really know Dya's play enough to say it's wolfy for them though, but it vibes wolfy to me. I've moved them up and down on my list a lot because I tend to fing aggro towny and they seem genuinely upset getting pushed or misunderstood, but at the same time they're not in my Vibe (which Benneh and Hally has been for a while and so was GH and Logic).

Anyway, I'm sorry if this is upsetting but

Vote: Dyachei

ftr dya not still wolf reading arctic doesn’t concern me, he made himself an obvious villager after EoD2

also what does “in my Vibe” mean lol

[nebjiamn]

I'm crashing now but I just wanted to add that Benneh being all "omg I have the same read!" with Zack still gives me the voting twitchies.

thats why i killed him

you're next

[Hally]

I'm not sure why it's wolfy I never said more than that gemmas entrance was wolfy because there wasn't a lot to read on d1 from Gemma

that’s… not at all what what i said?

i said you 1) never expressed a wolf read them, 2) voted them EoD1 without talking about them, 3) had them as null again D2 and 4) did not talk about wolf reading them at all even when arctic directly asked you if you wolf read them/why you voted them EoD, but today you said you did wolf read them but like… where?

[Wisdom]

ftr dya not still wolf reading arctic doesn’t concern me, he made himself an obvious villager after EoD2

also what does “in my Vibe” mean lol

I mean I saw EoD2 and agreed it was towny, but not clearing.

I'm pretty good at solving people through interactions with them, but since I find the intention/information through feelings rather than words and logic I find it hard to explain it, hence the vibes. Thing is, I have a lot of issues with trusting my vibes since part of my brain wants logic arguments, which has resulted in me ignoring correct vibes a lot of times. But they're way more accurate than rand, so I find it hard to push anyone I've had good vibes for.

I called you vibe town the first time you said you couldn’t understand me, and Ben vibe town when he interacted with me cuz he felt ignored.

I don't know if this makes sense, but it's an attempt to explain my brain.

[Raskolnikov]

I mean I saw EoD2 and agreed it was towny, but not clearing.

I'm pretty good at solving people through interactions with them, but since I find the intention/information through feelings rather than words and logic I find it hard to explain it, hence the vibes. Thing is, I have a lot of issues with trusting my vibes since part of my brain wants logic arguments, which has resulted in me ignoring correct vibes a lot of times. But they're way more accurate than rand, so I find it hard to push anyone I've had good vibes for.

I called you vibe town the first time you said you couldn’t understand me, and Ben vibe town when he interacted with me cuz he felt ignored.

I don't know if this makes sense, but it's an attempt to explain my brain.

You are intuitive, but not so much concise

[dyachei]

that’s… not at all what what i said?

i said you 1) never expressed a wolf read them, 2) voted them EoD1 without talking about them, 3) had them as null again D2 and 4) did not talk about wolf reading them at all even when arctic directly asked you if you wolf read them/why you voted them EoD, but today you said you did wolf read them but like… where?

I basically didn't go back to her when she pr softed. I feel like you're leaving that out and it still doesn't matter because I thought they were a better Elim than syn

[dyachei]

Do you always talk about every single read of yours when the person in question has barely posted?

[Hally]

Ngl bruv, feels like a stretch. Especially since:
1. Dya's earlier posts easily could cover a Murska vote (he hadn't claimed yet.)

yes he had, he claimed right before

2. If Dya wanted to bus and had "given up" on Syn then voting Syn would be better in terms of value.

i don’t really agree because i think wolves want logic to have a chance to go over and nobody has cared to give any cred to later syn voters, so it’s a pointless bus

3. Gemma is a PR they would want to keep around and there were several people that had talked about sussing/voting Gemma. Voting that and throwing it out like that has a lot more danger than some other options.

syn was a backup not a goon, so strictly from a role standpoint gemma going over does not matter because syn becomes the role cop

also again, the lunch was always going to be logic or syn. if dya had actually pushed for gemma to die over either of them i would agree with you but they didn’t at all, and then D2 they didn’t push them at all either before the soft (and people like me were wolf reading gemma D2 so it’s not like they weren’t getting talked about but dya had no reaction to it)

[dyachei]

Serious question though. I pointed out her weird entrance d1 and voted her. She was distinctly not towny

Even if syn had backed up Gemma it would have made less sense because he was doing even less than she was. It was always strictly better to go Gemma because in her nothingness she was trying and syn wasn't

Like why are we ignoring that syn was always going to be an elim

[Hally]

@Hally how about i'll let you have 1 non-wisdom elim today

it's vanta or dya i assume

but after that, if the game doesn't end, unless you explain to me why wisdom is town outside of the nonsensical "they don't have a plan here as wolf" (none of the wolves did btw lmfao i mean look at syn, visor, and then the closest thing would be gemma rolling with a claim that was still gonna end up guaranteeing their death) then we're going to kill them

and this isn't even true anymore
look at their read on me
they tried pairing me with gemma, then after everyone says i'm town quickly forgot about it, and now after sheeping your case on dya i'm suddenly back in her poe again and you're not, a poe of 3 people, which is enough elims to win, and they can very easily get vanta killed afterwards so they have a clear path to f3

i’m ngl that wisdom post voting dya made me do a double take lmao

like they just drop dya into PoE just like that?? was my case actually that good

god i hate mafia

[Raskolnikov]

I have started reading Vanta's ISO in their most recent MU game and I'd like some people to do so too. Might be usefull (I haved to go pickup kids at a bd party so will finish later), they were VT there.

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums...rchid=20252793

[Raskolnikov]

i’m ngl that wisdom post voting dya made me do a double take lmao

like they just drop dya into PoE just like that?? was my case actually that good

god i hate mafia

tbh they did the same thing with Gemma yesterDay and it's part of the reason I am keeping them in my cute 3 people winning POE

[Hally]

I basically didn't go back to her when she pr softed. I feel like you're leaving that out and it still doesn't matter because I thought they were a better Elim than syn

they didn’t soft until like over halfway through D2 though, right?

all the stuff i’m talking about (you putting them at null, not talking about them, not saying you wolf read them when arctic asked, etc) came before gemma softed, it was early D2 stuff

[dyachei]

they didn’t soft until like over halfway through D2 though, right?

all the stuff i’m talking about (you putting them at null, not talking about them, not saying you wolf read them when arctic asked, etc) came before gemma softed, it was early D2 stuff

Yeah because they didn't happen d1 and were only.slightly wolfy. This was also when all of you guys were telling me how much my reads sucked.

I still wanted her dead but then gh dropped his logic shield and logic had been wolfier

It doesn't make me a wolf. If I were just doing it for cred I would have left her as a wolf

[Hally]

Do you always talk about every single read of yours when the person in question has barely posted?

if i wolf read them and other people directly ask me? yes

but anyway, the gemma stuff is even really why i wolf read you, it’s more about your treatment of logic/gh and others

[Hally]

Serious question though. I pointed out her weird entrance d1 and voted her. She was distinctly not towny

Even if syn had backed up Gemma it would have made less sense because he was doing even less than she was. It was always strictly better to go Gemma because in her nothingness she was trying and syn wasn't

Like why are we ignoring that syn was always going to be an elim

im not ignoring it ????

that’s literally why i don’t care that you vanity voted gemma

you’re not responding to what i actually said

[dyachei]

if i wolf read them and other people directly ask me? yes

but anyway, the gemma stuff is even really why i wolf read you, it’s more about your treatment of logic/gh and others

This is code for I wanna get you elimmed anyway and don't care about refutations.

Gh also defended syn but really it was the way he dropped his shield of logic that had me concerned. He wasn't doing a ton of solving that made sense at the time. It makes more sense now but hindsight is 20/20.

Logix I made clear I have a hard time reading and was depending on gh but when gh rescinded and Zack had been w read ng him it made logic seem more wolfy. That mixed with all the contradictions everyone pointed out made we think it was him

[dyachei]

im not ignoring it ????

that’s literally why i don’t care that you vanity voted gemma

you’re not responding to what i actually said

It. Was. Not. A. Vanity. Vote.

[Hally]

im not ignoring it ????

that’s literally why i don’t care that you vanity voted gemma

you’re not responding to what i actually said

oh i misread “an elim” as “the elim [as in D1],” mb

no i agree with you, wolves would want syn dead over gemma EoD1, i just don’t think gemma was ever going to happen and i don’t think you actually made an effort to make it happen besides a vanity vote

but again, this isn’t even why i wolf read you so i don’t want to keep going over it