Tarot Mafia

[EnderWiggin]

Could Ender's thing have blocked the jailkeeping?

Nope.

[grr]

knights reads super towny to me, a little detail I like here is him making sure Rasks "alignment" gets framed correctly wrt vote logic, as that is something i pondered over as well immediately after he flipped. so probs just towncoring him at this point.

---

the role stuff goes over my head and I am a bit worried to just accept all of these conclusions as what i want to go off, but um:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

reminder that raskol was a villager WRT vote logic (people who voted him EOD 1 over syn voted a villager wagon over a wolf wagon)

less so yesterday after the claim (because it was a weird claim and likely to be non villager after that) but people pushing him before the claim also were essentially pushing a villager.



btw I think that based on his card (the devil) he was likely an arsonist. He was neutral, flavor works well for that role, and it makes wisdom's role believable/likely villager.

Since no additional kp showed n1, makes arsonist more likely too.

i'm probably cool with soft clearing wisdom(and yes ofc a wolf firefighter with a neutral arsonist is possible but I don't think visor would give a wolf firefighter and not a villa firefighter, and then I assume that villa would have counterclaimed wisdom)

knights soft clears wisdom for being firefighter in #2340 (was it ever proven she has that role in the first place?),

and also considering dyachei's role in particular (but honestly even without), can a wolf firefighter not exist without another firefighter or an arsonist at all? just to act as a rolestopper for dyachei?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think its possible that raskol claimed the shot because no villager had claimed it and he thought it was wolf kp, and claiming the shot on sheep would let him live through the day (he was getting some traction on votes)

but can't really depend on his claims to be accurate because he was a neutral, and dya did claim a shot on sheep, so i'm just living in the simple world where dya's shot is the real shot and raskol just made up everything and was fake claiming to try and live through the day (the fact that he claimed a 2 shot vig is relevant because if he was an arsonist he would have to douse/ignite, so he was probably going to ignite n2 to 'prove' his kp)

but I just think firefighter is a random first role to claim if you're wisdom (afaik he was the first person to claim a role at all) which makes me more confident that its true as well.

also knights about #2343 I am super hesitant about clearing wisdom for a an early claim per se btw. Because they did that in the last 12h/12h game on MafiaUniverse, which is what made me like squint immediately at that lol. I think they claimed um, Neapolitan or something on there. As wolf Rolecop iirc. Like obviously "u did that last game so you're a wolf again" is a stupid read which is why I didn't verbalize it but it's been gnawing at me.

---

knights - said above
insomnia - idk hes being a villagery potato (he might get mad at this but i dont mean his solving just his... style of posting lol). also arctic agreeing with me makes me feel fine i dont have a reason to doubt this. - also same question about you as about dya for the same reason. why dont wolves kill u? you got a HUNCH maybe? also not related to your alignment
dyachei - claim (why are they still alive. this isnt to question their alignment but why didnt the wolves nk them? kinda odd idgi)
vanta - i vaguely like his posts and i just sheep bops n1 check on them (he was probably halfjoking about that being a serious read on the post Vanta made and i choose to not care becuz it's the funnier option hehe)

these are town imo thats where i am currently at and if i talked about others i'd be uh, not confident.

(I have not read every post that was posted today, but im kinda getting there some of you write some complicated shit ngl, just wanted to give an update lol)

mostly for @Wisdom becuz im not sure this is helpful to anyone

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

for d1 ummm, i'm not sure what I posted in thread about you, yeah you finding me as villa for that on d1 was kinda unusual but not my bigger gripe, I just found your reaction to bop really uncharacteristic and the rest was a vague gutfeeling that didn't have THAT much to do with me. Yeah my read on you is evolving cause I'm also not good at reading you rofl. Also yes I didn't play a standard with you for ages, but we play a lotta mashes and I DO keep making it in your readslists so I DO feel you kinda think about my posting every other month in a game lol.

About me suspecting you for wolfreading me. Well. From my PoV. Arctic, ladd, stett, insomnia benneh all vouched for me being surely a villager (btw sheep and newcomb also tred me?). Now you roll into d3 and vote me. Obviously that leaves me in some confusion? I asked this before to someone else. Who of these people do you think have a terrible read on me? Who do you think is wolfing with me? I just dont know what to think. If you are a villager I wouldnt understand how you approach this game to end up in this conclusion Ig? It would seem like you would not try to make use of other villagers reads to help you solve or are p. out of touch with what has been said in the game. I'm not getting anywhere with this btw. I just reply cause I don't wanna be impolite.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom is likely just a wolf with Maple Ender

Wisdom if you were scumreading Maple, why not mention it until I asked you directly? Given the position of Maple since mid-D2 that should be a slot of great interest

I think it's very possible that the inverter is town, didn't understand that inverters wasn't a strict debuff, and targetted Maple N1 thinking it was a debuff

Then probably targetted Jan N2 after Maple claimed they were self-resolvable from it bc Jan doesn't look the best but looks like the best or second best of the PR claims depending on your personal take

Pretty sure I said Maple had wolf pr vibes d2 tbh, and between my post before and your question I caught up on his claim stuff earlier today. Everything doesn't revolve around you my friend ^^ (sorry for snark <3)

[Wisdom]

I think the Inverter is town.

Inverter =/= Maple

>:

I hate English

[EnderWiggin]

Vanta what do you think of the current thread consensus that the four wolfiest people are Maple, Wisdom, Ladd, and Ender? And the less consensus read that Montmorency had potential to be a neutral teammed with Rask?

Tbh I’m struggling to think of a person who’s checked in today besides you who has major scumreads out of those first four names

I’d be interested in seeing your overall view of the game at some point today

On this note:

Can I talk to you about Benneh/Sunbae?

I think there's definitely a wolf in there from how D1 went with me.

Yes, yes, self-centred reads. But I have caught wolves with em before and you know that. (I want Maple over today but this is definitely a direction I want to explore for tomorrow/later.)

[Wisdom]

I have seperated inverter and inventor in the other context, I think it was just in that post my brain went brr.

Do we have any proof an invertor actually exists outside Maple? Who got inverted n2? If town, who's the inverter?

[Wisdom]

This not either of us calling Maple town wisdom

this is us saying that Maple was targetted by a town member with the inverter, not a mafia member with the inverter

Yeah I understand it now xD fml

[EnderWiggin]

I have seperated inverter and inventor in the other context, I think it was just in that post my brain went brr.

Do we have any proof an invertor actually exists outside Maple? Who got inverted n2? If town, who's the inverter?

Jan claimed N2 inverted.

And no, I'm not gonna guess who they are because I think they're town and if they're town them staying hidden = better.

[EnderWiggin]

Ok so to start lets get some things we know down:

A. From the wolves pov we know they thought Rask was town. This is relevant not just for eod1 wagon analysis but also eod2 analysis where wolves were thinking we were chopping a town vig. When rereading eod1 (which I will be doing shortly) we have known info that there were wagons on Sheep (villa), Rask (villa from wolf pov), and Syn (wolf). When rereading yesterday, I want to look at which players were posting in a way to look good after town Rask vig flips at eod.

B. There are quite a few claims and the game can turn mechanical pretty easily but I want to use mechanical claims to supplement reads on actual posting rather than making reads based on the claims. None of the claims are really verifiable without flips and frankly they all sound kind of convoluted to begin with so trying to figure out what's real and what's made up just isn't really my cup of tea. Would prefer to just use all the known flips to judge people on their own and then use mechanics to tilt us in once direction or another if its close.

C. I'm of the belief that things have been going well enough thus far (2 kills out of 2 chops is as much as you could hope for) but today - now that we have 7 alignments - should see a fair amount of shake ups in reads lists. Use what we have so far as a starting point but don't be afraid to shake it up. There's enough info now we should have the ability to make good reads for good reasons instead of vibe checks and mostly meta.



My plans for this game day are:
- reread eod1
- focus on the wagons we know results of, figure out who was moving where
- pay attention to dead villagers and their pushes during these times. lots of good players in this game so want to pay extra attention to why they died over others
- reread post Dya claim day 2
- focus on reactions and who seems gung ho about killing rask vs those that want to look good for the next day
- form a towncore
- use said towncore to pore over the thread and help sort the game
- be annoyed at myself for not just shitposting and vibing still
- brains be weird
- sort through any mechanical thing that bothers me
- get a full reads list with in depth explanations for each player
- hope thats good enough to win

I'm ngl this feels very performative.

I do feel it might be uncharitable of me but:

This is a lot of talking about how they're going to do Good Villager Things without doing Good Villager Things.

I'll see how it progresses but I don't remember Sunbae!Town talking so much about how they're gonna do the Thing.tm instead of just doing things.

[Dolby]

On this note:

Can I talk to you about Benneh/Sunbae?

I think there's definitely a wolf in there from how D1 went with me.

Yes, yes, self-centred reads. But I have caught wolves with em before and you know that. (I want Maple over today but this is definitely a direction I want to explore for tomorrow/later.)

think they are a area I explore if I begin feeling that I'm wrong on the Ladd/you portion of my scumreads (mainly moreso Ladd bc Benneh/Ladd is not a full on dichotomy). I think I eval Vanta/Monty/Gemma as well. I also just don't feel like there's necessarily a wolf between them based on D1?

[Dolby]

Also gonna say I am straight up townreading Benneh

[EnderWiggin]

think they are a area I explore if I begin feeling that I'm wrong on the Ladd/you portion of my scumreads (mainly moreso Ladd bc Benneh/Ladd is not a full on dichotomy). I think I eval Vanta/Monty/Gemma as well. I also just don't feel like there's necessarily a wolf between them based on D1?

Vanta/Monty/Gemma I think is town/3p/town so 0 wolves.

Also gonna say I am straight up townreading Benneh

Can you talk about why? (If it's a post you've made today dw and I'll find it while catching up.)

[Dolby]

Vanta/Monty/Gemma I think is town/3p/town so 0 wolves.



Can you talk about why? (If it's a post you've made today dw and I'll find it while catching up.)

Like his posts, not much else tbh

[EnderWiggin]

Sure, if yall dont kill me first



@ender i think u should claim full role too atp

I don't see a need to.

But sure I can if a lot of people want me to.

I'm like ~not that useful esp given 1 of my 2 shots got wasted N1 from whatever reason Stett didn't get it.

[EnderWiggin]

Sunbae: I've done a review of EOD1 and D2 and Monty/Ladd/Knights/Dya look towny

Me: *Stares at d2 reads where those were 4 of my main reads.*

[Dolby]

I'm starting to suspect ladd is a wolf who's pocketing/whiteknighting me tbh, but it's hard to explain why

But when I think that there's 3-4 wolves in 14 players (right?) and that he's alive it's easy to think he's a wolf.

Like, the easiest world is it's like Gemma/Vanta/Dolby/Monte but it's never that easy. Ladd's easy to tinfoil, and then we have Knights and Benneh who I've got no clue on, and Ender who I can't remember a single d2 post from but I read he claimed pr.

Dya's town. Grr's probably town. I still want to think Jan is my D1 Town Clear and won't re-evaluate unless alive end game, if he's town pr he'll just die eventually anyway. And Maple who I don't know what his deal is.

My goal for today is finding 8 villagers, I have 3 right now +2 potential pr's. I'm soon done with work so can put some more work in when I get home.

Having Maple v for a bit may be towny disconnection with the thread state tbh given they re-evaled quickly (though I want to burn both with fire still)

though I still dislike that Wisdom is going for what I view as the easiest miselims in the thread here? Gemma/Vanta/Dolby/Monte I'm inclined to say as 0 wolves (despite my last statement saying Gemma/Vanta/Monte are places I look if wrong on ladd/ender (sidenote that I think that Monte if non-town is very likely 3p not wolf))

[Wisdom]

knights reads super towny to me, a little detail I like here is him making sure Rasks "alignment" gets framed correctly wrt vote logic, as that is something i pondered over as well immediately after he flipped. so probs just towncoring him at this point.

---

the role stuff goes over my head and I am a bit worried to just accept all of these conclusions as what i want to go off, but um:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

knights soft clears wisdom for being firefighter in #2340 (was it ever proven she has that role in the first place?),

and also considering dyachei's role in particular (but honestly even without), can a wolf firefighter not exist without another firefighter or an arsonist at all? just to act as a rolestopper for dyachei?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

also knights about #2343 I am super hesitant about clearing wisdom for a an early claim per se btw. Because they did that in the last 12h/12h game on MafiaUniverse, which is what made me like squint immediately at that lol. I think they claimed um, Neapolitan or something on there. As wolf Rolecop iirc. Like obviously "u did that last game so you're a wolf again" is a stupid read which is why I didn't verbalize it but it's been gnawing at me.

---

knights - said above
insomnia - idk hes being a villagery potato (he might get mad at this but i dont mean his solving just his... style of posting lol). also arctic agreeing with me makes me feel fine i dont have a reason to doubt this. - also same question about you as about dya for the same reason. why dont wolves kill u? you got a HUNCH maybe? also not related to your alignment
dyachei - claim (why are they still alive. this isnt to question their alignment but why didnt the wolves nk them? kinda odd idgi)
vanta - i vaguely like his posts and i just sheep bops n1 check on them (he was probably halfjoking about that being a serious read on the post Vanta made and i choose to not care becuz it's the funnier option hehe)

these are town imo thats where i am currently at and if i talked about others i'd be uh, not confident.

(I have not read every post that was posted today, but im kinda getting there some of you write some complicated shit ngl, just wanted to give an update lol)

mostly for @Wisdom becuz im not sure this is helpful to anyone

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

for d1 ummm, i'm not sure what I posted in thread about you, yeah you finding me as villa for that on d1 was kinda unusual but not my bigger gripe, I just found your reaction to bop really uncharacteristic and the rest was a vague gutfeeling that didn't have THAT much to do with me. Yeah my read on you is evolving cause I'm also not good at reading you rofl. Also yes I didn't play a standard with you for ages, but we play a lotta mashes and I DO keep making it in your readslists so I DO feel you kinda think about my posting every other month in a game lol.

About me suspecting you for wolfreading me. Well. From my PoV. Arctic, ladd, stett, insomnia benneh all vouched for me being surely a villager (btw sheep and newcomb also tred me?). Now you roll into d3 and vote me. Obviously that leaves me in some confusion? I asked this before to someone else. Who of these people do you think have a terrible read on me? Who do you think is wolfing with me? I just dont know what to think. If you are a villager I wouldnt understand how you approach this game to end up in this conclusion Ig? It would seem like you would not try to make use of other villagers reads to help you solve or are p. out of touch with what has been said in the game. I'm not getting anywhere with this btw. I just reply cause I don't wanna be impolite.

You're forgetting that I'm doing what I can with limited information. I haven't read half d2 and when I don't have enough information on someone I sheep the consensus (ie Knights/Insomnia) but when I find wolfy stuff I'm gonna point it out.

Last game I had here I was pushed all game because my reads weren't consensus. I was wrong on Syn being wolf and he got yeeted d1. I had Logic town d1-d3 and then he got misyeeted. I had Benneh/Hally in my PoE almost all game despite both being consensus town read and after I got misyeeted Hally continued to solo win.

I have good intuition and I know to trust myself and that sometimes it's better to listen to others and sometimes I should listen to my gut and my reasons.

Like, the knights posts I've seen all have looked towny but not unfakeable. Same with Sunbae. And since they aren't focused in thread, I don't prioritze trying to find micro stuff on them because that's going to be easier with more flips anyway.

[EnderWiggin]

oh boy

two people claiming to have visited two dead villagers

what a nightphase

next we'll find out ender visited stett last night

If I say I did would it make you happy? =P

(I didn't visit anyone last night.)

[EnderWiggin]

I might be a sucker but the Wisdom "Vote: Grr" "Unvote: I was looking at the wrong day" sequence reads kinda town to me.

[Jan]

sup jan

do u think we're bluhblublughbulmgluhbuhbuhluh for sussing ladd

i own a home of my very own now apparently

whoshamammythunkit

not really?
He is in the poe, but I don't know if he is more sus than he was yesterday.

I am trying to process if knights still tunneling me right now is a terrible village tunnel or a wolf using a crutch.
And it annoys me. A part of me wants to jail him spam "a/s/l?" in prison all night and kill him if he doesn't make me chuckle.

But I should pick someone that is more likely to flip wolf tbh.

Ladd wanting Maple dead when I can at least confirm that the invert part of the claim is real is another problem.
Not sure if I am giving too much leeway or not.
Not sure if Maple is be wolf kp that got inverted and still keeps it. (Inverting is more twisting than fully changing roles a far as I can tell).
The World claim fits well with the roleclaim (world is the last and highest card of the high arcana to my limited knowledge, which fits with the ability to draw all those lower cards).
"Whenever it comes up, this card represents what is truly desired."

I will not bet the game on a claim being a good flavor fit. But it does give me pause and adds to my doubt.

[Wisdom]

I was wrong on Syn being wolf and he got yeeted d1

But I also voted Visor who was wolfing. I don't always follow the same path thread does but that doesn't mean I'm wrong. Like I said earlier, in US timed games like this I'm just in my own cloud trying to solve the game by myself

[Jan]

...

Does Jailkeeper block non-killing actions?

If so (Respectfully) fuck you.

I roleblocked stett n1

AND

protected her from death.

Anything you did to her should have gone through as long as it is non-lethal.

[Wisdom]

Jan claimed N2 inverted.

And no, I'm not gonna guess who they are because I think they're town and if they're town them staying hidden = better.

Ah
Did Jan claim jk yesterday?
Why would town invert that and what does it even mean?

[EnderWiggin]

not really?
He is in the poe, but I don't know if he is more sus than he was yesterday.

I am trying to process if knights still tunneling me right now is a terrible village tunnel or a wolf using a crutch.
And it annoys me. A part of me wants to jail him spam "a/s/l?" in prison all night and kill him if he doesn't make me chuckle.

But I should pick someone that is more likely to flip wolf tbh.

Ladd wanting Maple dead when I can at least confirm that the invert part of the claim is real is another problem.
Not sure if I am giving too much leeway or not.
Not sure if Maple is be wolf kp that got inverted and still keeps it. (Inverting is more twisting than fully changing roles a far as I can tell).
The World claim fits well with the roleclaim (world is the last and highest card of the high arcana to my limited knowledge, which fits with the ability to draw all those lower cards).
"Whenever it comes up, this card represents what is truly desired."

I will not bet the game on a claim being a good flavor fit. But it does give me pause and adds to my doubt.

What if I told you I believe the core of Maple's claim is true but just think it's a wolfy role esp with how limited I feel like most of the full claimed town have been?

Like Maple has implied they can provide unlimited cards (esp with a card N1 and supposedly one N2.)

When every other town has very strongly implied a restriction except maybe the Jailkeeper in terms of how often you can use the power.

Inventer feels more like a wolf role in that context shrug.

[EnderWiggin]

I roleblocked stett n1

AND

protected her from death.

Anything you did to her should have gone through as long as it is non-lethal.

Eh.

Well that leaves me at a loss as to why Stett didn't notice anything. :/

[EnderWiggin]

Look, I'm sorry if this comes off rude @Wisdom

But most of your questions have been talked about in thread already.

Esp Jan's claim and timing.

And it's 1:30am for me. And I'm trying to get caught up and post thoughts I want into thread before sleeping for work. Which I'm already under-sleep for.

I just don't have time to hand-hold you through this shit when it's in thread already.

[Wisdom]

Vote: Maple

[Jan]

Jan claimed N2 inverted.

And no, I'm not gonna guess who they are because I think they're town and if they're town them staying hidden = better.

I have an idea, but my lips are sealed because it does not matter. (until it does)

[Wisdom]

Look, I'm sorry if this comes off rude @Wisdom

But most of your questions have been talked about in thread already.

Esp Jan's claim and timing.

And it's 1:30am for me. And I'm trying to get caught up and post thoughts I want into thread before sleeping for work. Which I'm already under-sleep for.

I just don't have time to hand-hold you through this shit when it's in thread already.

Rude!

[Dolby]

That was 100% what I thought he was doing tbh

then why have Maple in your townreads at this moment in time after 3 people who were consensus town (maybe arctic wasn't 100% consensus and still pretty townread) died?