Odessy

[Celtic_Punk]

Well 2 questions, one for alllll you awesome academics out there, and the second for all you everyones out there.

1- I wish to read the Oddyssy, but i have yet to ... brush up... heh... on my ancient greek. So what book has the best (and by best i mean most direct, and accurate) translation of Homer's original writing.

and 2- Who is your favourite character. Mine is Ajax, powerful warrior that no man could fell, only by his own blade did he die.


I KNOW I KNOW its not 272 BC-14AD, but its ROUGHLY the same time period, and is inside the period of interest for most of us. So lets keep this one on topic guys.

thanks to whoever gets me the book reference. I need somethin to read this christmas

[oudysseos]

The Robert Fagles translations of the Iliad and Odyssey are widely considered to be masterpieces: whether or not they are the best is a matter of opinion. I think they'd be hard to beat. Lattimore's translations are also very good. Generally speaking, the older the translation, the more difficult you'll find it. Pope's translations, for instance, are classics, but can be a hard slog for the modern reader.

So go with Fagles, absolutely. The introductory essay by Bernard Knox is a worthy read in its own right. For some background to the period you simply must read Helen of Troy by Bettany Hughes. This is not one of those historical fiction autobiographies but a fantastic exploration of the late bronze age and the roles that Helen hasa played in our myths and legends.

Here are some googlebooks previews, which seem to include the entire introductory essays by Knox. Joyeux Noel.

http://books.google.com/books?id=TpS...fagles#PPP1,M1

http://books.google.com/books?id=lZW...=robert+fagles


P.S. Ajax is mainly a character in the Iliad, not the Odyssey.

P.P.S. Don't sweat the Greek: even the Greeks themselves needed special help to read Homer.

[Celtic_Punk]

awesome, thankyou fellow mick. I'll check my library and see if they can hook me up with one.

and still Ajax is mentioned in the Odyssey i believe. So hes my favourite character. Hes my favourite mythological character of all time.. next to The Hound of Ulster. who i am aptly named after.

[theoldbelgian]

I think the Iliad was the story of the siege of troy and Ajax killed himself during that
the odyssey is basically the story after that about the journey home of Odysseus( boy was he one lousy map reader)

[Celtic_Punk]

haha, well i gotta hand it to him, I wouldnt want to deal with the Agean in a storm. rocks, islands, sirens, seamonsters, and pirates to boot!

[Wausser]

I think the Iliad was the story of the siege of troy and Ajax killed himself during that
the odyssey is basically the story after that about the journey home of Odysseus( boy was he one lousy map reader)

Yeah that's true althought the Illias is about the wrath of Achilles and is situated in 40 days of the Trojan war. The Odyssey is about the quest of Odysseus on his way home after the Trojan war.

[Celtic_Punk]

hmmm on that same note, what about the Iliad? anyone know of any equally good translations/literations

[abou]

Fagles did a version of the Illiad as well as the Aeneid.

As Oudysseos mentioned, there are several different translations of many of these works. Fagles is generally considered the best because it isn't just a good translation, but good English poetry as well. So, what does that mean? That means it's dense, heady, and can be a difficult read for someone who doesn't read a lot of poetry. So just take that as a caveat.

[Wausser]

I've read a pretty decent translation of the Odyssey, but it only appeared in Dutch....




Btw I just hate the English names for classical names/books/things

Iilias, Odysseia, Aeneïs, Homerus(or Homeros), Vergillius, Ovidius etc.

[cmacq]

haha, well i gotta hand it to him, I wouldnt want to deal with the Agean in a storm. rocks, islands, sirens, seamonsters, and pirates to boot!

All very common misconceptions.

Μῆνιν ἄειδε θεὰ Πηληϊάδεω Ἀχιλῆος
οὐλομένην, ἣ μυρί᾿ Ἀχαιοῖς ἄλγε᾿ ἔθηκε,
πολλὰς δ᾿ ἰφθίμους ψυχὰς Ἄϊδι προΐαψεν
ἡρώων, αὐτοὺς δὲ ἑλώρια τεῦχε κύνεσσιν
οἰωνοῖσί τε πᾶσι· Διὸς δ᾿ ἐτελείετο βουλή,
ἐξ οὗ δὴ τὰ πρῶτα διαστήτην ἐρίσαντε
Ἀτρεΐδης τε ἄναξ ἀνδρῶν καὶ δῖος Ἀχιλλεύς.

Goddess sing to us of anger, whereby Peleus' son Achilles,
ruined the Achaeans, without number, and fixed their pain,
were many stout souls to Hades, all heroes untimely sent,
their remains, the ready prize, of every dog and bird of prey,
this God fulfilled by design, yet not before quarrel set apart,
divine Achilles, and Atreus’ son, the master of upraised men.

Actually, the 24 books of the Iliad cover only about two weeks during the last year of the decade long war between the Trojans and Achaeans. It begins with Agamemnon’s seizure of Briseis, Achilles’ royal prize, his withdrawal from battle; and ends with the funeral of Hector. Telamonian-Ajax was not killed in the Iliad, rather therein he recovered the body of Patroclus, yet lost Achilles’ barrowed armour to Hector.

The death of Ajax was included in the Aethiopis and the Little Iliad, within the greater Trojan War Cycle, of which the Iliad is one part.

On the other hand...

ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν·
πολλῶν δ᾽ ἀνθρώπων ἴδεν ἄστεα καὶ νόον ἔγνω,
πολλὰ δ᾽ ὅ γ᾽ ἐν πόντῳ πάθεν ἄλγεα ὃν κατὰ θυμόν,
ἀρνύμενος ἥν τε ψυχὴν καὶ νόστον ἑταίρων.
ἀλλ᾽ οὐδ᾽ ὣς ἑτάρους ἐρρύσατο, ἱέμενός περ·
αὐτῶν γὰρ σφετέρῃσιν ἀτασθαλίῃσιν ὄλοντο,
νήπιοι, οἳ κατὰ βοῦς Ὑπερίονος Ἠελίοιο
ἤσθιον· αὐτὰρ ὁ τοῖσιν ἀφείλετο νόστιμον ἦμαρ.

τῶν ἁμόθεν γε, θεά, θύγατερ Διός, εἰπὲ καὶ ἡμῖν.

Muse recall for us, the man much-travelled, of this most far and wide,
made to wonder, after the divine citadel of Troy was thrown asunder:
he beheld the men from many nations, and came to learn their minds,
indeed on the sea he suffered many pains, that caused his heart to fall,
from which he won for himself, his life and a fair wind homeward bound,
yet thusly he could not save his comrades, although this he did desire,
a reason provided, themselves for their bold sins, whereby they died,
not but children, whom the most-high Sun at noon put down as cows,
then consumed for after all, the day of their return had been deigned.

Indeed of this that follows, goddess, God's daughter, speak through me.

------------------------------------------------------------------------
These were as close to poetic English, that tries to capture the Homeric style, as I can come.

With the exceptions of an ill conceived attack on an Aegean island, a tour of the Levant, a raid on Egypt, and a quick trip to Denmark, the Odyssey mostly took place in the middle and western Mediterranean.



CmacQ

[oudysseos]

Celtic Punk, are you actually named Cuchullain? That's wild. Even in Ireland I've never met anyone by that name.

BTW, if you can find a copy, William Stanford's The Ulysses Theme is an excellent book, although it deals more with the adaptable hero in his many guises, from Homer to Joyce.

[keravnos]

Right after the..

Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ
πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσε·

comes my favorite verse of Odyssey, ever since I read it is the following..

πολλῶν δ’ ἀνθρώπων ἴδεν ἄστεα καὶ νόον ἔγνω,

meaning, "He saw the cities of many men (peoples) and learned their mind (way of thinking)"
It is one of those phrases that really stick on a person's mind, this one particularly stuck in mine.
I guess it is one of the reasons why I find History so appealing.

If you want to read the first chapter of Odyssey,
http://sjcsfarchive.org/drupal/files...y_1_1-10_0.pdf

[Conradus]

There's a decent Dutch translation out there, but that won't help you I guess.

We read parts of the Illias and Odysseia in our Greek course three years ago. It was far from easy but an amusing thing to do.

[Tellos Athenaios]

The Illiad is the story of some 50 odd days in the last year of the war, focussing around the conflict between the warrior Achilleus and his king & general Agamemnon.

The prooimion of the Illiad (quoted by cmacq) actually has a subtly different meanings on a few counts:

"Godess, sing/tell (me) of [aeide] the accursed [oulomenhn] resentment [mhnin] of Achilleus son of Peleus, which [h] posed [eqhken] many [muri] toils [alge'] for the Achaioi [Axaioij]."

As for good translations: you can give Perseus a try.

[Cimon]

The Illiad is the story of some 50 odd days in the last year of the war, focussing around the conflict between the warrior Achilleus and his king & general Agamemnon.

The prooimion of the Illiad (quoted by cmacq) actually has a subtly different meanings on a few counts:

"Godess, sing/tell (me) of [aeide] the accursed [oulomenhn] resentment [mhnin] of Achilleus son of Peleus, which [h] posed [eqhken] many [muri] toils [alge'] for the Achaioi [Axaioij]."

As for good translations: you can give Perseus a try.

I'm not sure how accurate, but I always liked the translation that led off with, "Sing, muse, of the rage of Achilles."

The reason I like this translation, whether exact or not, is the use of the word rage: it perfectly sums up the entire Iliad in one word. It's not about Helen and Paris (much as modern moviemakes would like us to believe), nor is it about Menelaos regaining his wife; no, it is about Achilles, and the absolute blind wrath that causes so much pain for the Achaioi. Not to say that Achilles doesn't have a legitimate beef with Agamemnon, but here he is almost losing the war for his own side all over a slave girl/battle prize.

This is in addition to the fact that the only reason he came to Troy was to earn everlasting glory. As we know, he had the choice put to him: stay home and live a long life, but be unremembered, or go to Troy, win glory and be known through the ages, but die as a young man. Of course, he chose Option B, but now, sitting out due to Agamemnon's claming Briseis, he's going to die young, but still without glory. What a dilemma for him. It can only be violent and uncontrolled anger ("rage") that brings him to this point: the precipice of losing everything while gaining nothing.

I read Iliad roughly once every year to year and a half. It is truly a masterpiece, and there is lots going on underneath the lyrics of the poem itself.

[Puupertti Ruma]

I'm not sure how accurate, but I always liked the translation that led off with, "Sing, muse, of the rage of Achilles."

The reason I like this translation, whether exact or not, is the use of the word rage: it perfectly sums up the entire Iliad in one word. It's not about Helen and Paris (much as modern moviemakes would like us to believe), nor is it about Menelaos regaining his wife; no, it is about Achilles, and the absolute blind wrath that causes so much pain for the Achaioi. Not to say that Achilles doesn't have a legitimate beef with Agamemnon, but here he is almost losing the war for his own side all over a slave girl/battle prize.

This is in addition to the fact that the only reason he came to Troy was to earn everlasting glory. As we know, he had the choice put to him: stay home and live a long life, but be unremembered, or go to Troy, win glory and be known through the ages, but die as a young man. Of course, he chose Option B, but now, sitting out due to Agamemnon's claming Briseis, he's going to die young, but still without glory. What a dilemma for him. It can only be violent and uncontrolled anger ("rage") that brings him to this point: the precipice of losing everything while gaining nothing.

I read Iliad roughly once every year to year and a half. It is truly a masterpiece, and there is lots going on underneath the lyrics of the poem itself.

I'm under the impression that in Odysseia, Odysseus visits the gates of underworld, where he has a conversation with Achilles. This conversation made the character of Achilleus even more tragic, as he doesn't live in glory in the after life, only in mourning. So in a sense, it made all of his heroics vain.

Source, Grimbergs World History, please do correct me if my memory fails me.

[cmacq]

I'm under the impression that in Odysseia, Odysseus visits the gates of underworld, where he has a conversation with Achilles. This conversation made the character of Achilleus even more tragic, as he doesn't live in glory in the after life, only in mourning. So in a sense, it made all of his heroics vain.

Source, Grimbergs World History, please do correct me if my memory fails me.

I'm not sure that he was in morning?


CmacQ

[cmacq]

This reminds me of my fav.

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra

ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
geong in geardum, þone god sende
folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat

þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),
Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.

Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal

in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile
felahror feran on frean wære.
Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe,
swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd,

þenden wordum weold wine Scyldinga;
leof landfruma lange ahte.



Hearken all, of our warriors, as in former-days, the country’s nobles, heard deeds, of how brave men, earned their praise.

It’s often said Scyld of Scef, from enemy troops, of many nations, snatched away their mead-benches, and scattered earls. Yet when first weaned, he was found friendless, to garner and prepare, waxing under cloudy-skies, to grow upright-minded, until to him all tribes, over the whale-roads, did submit with tribute paid; due this great-kingship.

Thereafter to him a child was given, whom when young at court, was seen as god sent to favor folk: for he felt fearful-woe that in those days he went without a heir too long awhile. He that Frea made wonder-ruler, gave earthly-honor; Beowulf was his name and wide-spread his fame, this offspring of Scyld, throughout the southern lands.

Thus as young men must he did good deeds, gave rich flawless gifts to his father's troupe, that when he came of age, thereafter they remained as willing-friends; and when war came, they served the people, as lofty-fame demands, among each clan and prospered man.

When this Scyld passed at the proper time, he was well resolved to go in Frea's way. So his closest clansmen bore him to the briny froth, as he in-person bid, this wonder-ruler and friend of Scylds, beloved land-giver forever long-remembered.


A good start.

CmacQ

[Cimon]

I'm under the impression that in Odysseia, Odysseus visits the gates of underworld, where he has a conversation with Achilles. This conversation made the character of Achilleus even more tragic, as he doesn't live in glory in the after life, only in mourning. So in a sense, it made all of his heroics vain.

Source, Grimbergs World History, please do correct me if my memory fails me.

Well, I don't know if it's so much mourning, as perhaps some regret over the choice that he made. When they meet in the underworld, Odysseus notes that Achilles was great while he lived, and is still honored, even in death. Achilles replies with something to the effect (depends on the translation), "I would rather be alive and a slave to a poor man, than king of all the dead." So, perhaps he regrets the decision he made to go to Troy, rather than to live a long life on earth, and not be remembered. In that sense, you are probably correct that it makes Achilles more tragic: he thought he knew what he wanted, but, in retrospect, he didn't.

In fact, one could say that he might even have the beginnings on this regret in the Iliad, interestingly enough. In Book 9, when Odysseus and the other warriors lead an embassy to Achilles to induce him to return to the battle, Achilles suggests that he may have made the wrong choice, i.e. to choose "fame imperishable" over a long life that is unremembered, and that maybe it's not too late to change his mind.

However, in a poem about Achilles, that thought gets swept under the rug a bit. After all, the Iliad is about "rage" and glory. Once Achilles returns, all ideas that he made the wrong choice are given short shrift. If the poem was about the wrong choice, perhaps the poem would have been continued until Achilles death, but it isn't.

The Odyssey, by contrast, is of course about Odysseus, who is an entirely different sort of character. Odysseus didn't even want to participate in the Trojan War; when Menelaos put out the call for the Achaioi to unite, Odysseus feigned insanity in an attempt to stay home. Of course, this attempted deception was seen through, and Odysseus went to Troy. However, while Odysseus does his fair share of the fighting, he is first and foremost attempting to stay alive. In Book 7, when Hector offers to fight a duel against any Greek, nine warriors step forward -- but Odysseus is the last one.

So, to circle back to your point, there is at least a partial duality between the characters of Odysseus and Achilles, and between the poems themselves. The scholar Cedric Whitman said,

"There is a wonderful passage in the Odyssey where Odysseus meets the ghost of Achilles in Hades. They are profoundly courteous to each other. Odysseus, outlining his own toils, reminds Achilles that the surpeme honor which the latter receives from all makes light of death; but Achilles, complimenting Odysseus on the magnificence of his adventures, answers that there is no consolation in death, for it is better to be the living slave of a poor man than king of all the dead. Yet, it is hard to imagine Achilles as the slave of a poor man, and hard to believe that he is speaking a literal truth. He is emphasizing the cost of his greatness, the incurable sorrow of being Achilles. He is saying, 'I have suffered the worst, identified myself with it; you have merely survived.' And Odysseus, for his part, says: 'you are very honored indeed, but you are dead; I am doing the really difficult and great thing.' It's the gulf between the two man, and their characteristic views of life, in a few lines."

[Arminius]

On a related note: If you like SF-books, read Dan Simmons' Ilium and Olympos, it's the Iliad and Odyssey in a far future setting.

Very good read in my opinion.


Oh, and hello to everyone, I'm not a vivid poster, but I do read the forum a lot (And I play EB of course!!)

So I will also use this post to thank the EB-mod team for most possibly the best modification ever!!

[cmacq]

Welcome friend.