Odessy

[Tellos Athenaios]

The Illiad is the story of some 50 odd days in the last year of the war, focussing around the conflict between the warrior Achilleus and his king & general Agamemnon.

The prooimion of the Illiad (quoted by cmacq) actually has a subtly different meanings on a few counts:

"Godess, sing/tell (me) of [aeide] the accursed [oulomenhn] resentment [mhnin] of Achilleus son of Peleus, which [h] posed [eqhken] many [muri] toils [alge'] for the Achaioi [Axaioij]."

As for good translations: you can give Perseus a try.

[Cimon]

The Illiad is the story of some 50 odd days in the last year of the war, focussing around the conflict between the warrior Achilleus and his king & general Agamemnon.

The prooimion of the Illiad (quoted by cmacq) actually has a subtly different meanings on a few counts:

"Godess, sing/tell (me) of [aeide] the accursed [oulomenhn] resentment [mhnin] of Achilleus son of Peleus, which [h] posed [eqhken] many [muri] toils [alge'] for the Achaioi [Axaioij]."

As for good translations: you can give Perseus a try.

I'm not sure how accurate, but I always liked the translation that led off with, "Sing, muse, of the rage of Achilles."

The reason I like this translation, whether exact or not, is the use of the word rage: it perfectly sums up the entire Iliad in one word. It's not about Helen and Paris (much as modern moviemakes would like us to believe), nor is it about Menelaos regaining his wife; no, it is about Achilles, and the absolute blind wrath that causes so much pain for the Achaioi. Not to say that Achilles doesn't have a legitimate beef with Agamemnon, but here he is almost losing the war for his own side all over a slave girl/battle prize.

This is in addition to the fact that the only reason he came to Troy was to earn everlasting glory. As we know, he had the choice put to him: stay home and live a long life, but be unremembered, or go to Troy, win glory and be known through the ages, but die as a young man. Of course, he chose Option B, but now, sitting out due to Agamemnon's claming Briseis, he's going to die young, but still without glory. What a dilemma for him. It can only be violent and uncontrolled anger ("rage") that brings him to this point: the precipice of losing everything while gaining nothing.

I read Iliad roughly once every year to year and a half. It is truly a masterpiece, and there is lots going on underneath the lyrics of the poem itself.

[Puupertti Ruma]

I'm not sure how accurate, but I always liked the translation that led off with, "Sing, muse, of the rage of Achilles."

The reason I like this translation, whether exact or not, is the use of the word rage: it perfectly sums up the entire Iliad in one word. It's not about Helen and Paris (much as modern moviemakes would like us to believe), nor is it about Menelaos regaining his wife; no, it is about Achilles, and the absolute blind wrath that causes so much pain for the Achaioi. Not to say that Achilles doesn't have a legitimate beef with Agamemnon, but here he is almost losing the war for his own side all over a slave girl/battle prize.

This is in addition to the fact that the only reason he came to Troy was to earn everlasting glory. As we know, he had the choice put to him: stay home and live a long life, but be unremembered, or go to Troy, win glory and be known through the ages, but die as a young man. Of course, he chose Option B, but now, sitting out due to Agamemnon's claming Briseis, he's going to die young, but still without glory. What a dilemma for him. It can only be violent and uncontrolled anger ("rage") that brings him to this point: the precipice of losing everything while gaining nothing.

I read Iliad roughly once every year to year and a half. It is truly a masterpiece, and there is lots going on underneath the lyrics of the poem itself.

I'm under the impression that in Odysseia, Odysseus visits the gates of underworld, where he has a conversation with Achilles. This conversation made the character of Achilleus even more tragic, as he doesn't live in glory in the after life, only in mourning. So in a sense, it made all of his heroics vain.

Source, Grimbergs World History, please do correct me if my memory fails me.

[cmacq]

I'm under the impression that in Odysseia, Odysseus visits the gates of underworld, where he has a conversation with Achilles. This conversation made the character of Achilleus even more tragic, as he doesn't live in glory in the after life, only in mourning. So in a sense, it made all of his heroics vain.

Source, Grimbergs World History, please do correct me if my memory fails me.

I'm not sure that he was in morning?


CmacQ

[cmacq]

This reminds me of my fav.

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,

monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra

ofer hronrade hyran scolde,
gomban gyldan. þæt wæs god cyning!
Ðæm eafera wæs æfter cenned,
geong in geardum, þone god sende
folce to frofre; fyrenðearfe ongeat

þe hie ær drugon aldorlease
lange hwile. Him þæs liffrea,
wuldres wealdend, woroldare forgeaf;
Beowulf wæs breme (blæd wide sprang),
Scyldes eafera Scedelandum in.

Swa sceal geong guma gode gewyrcean,
fromum feohgiftum on fæder bearme,
þæt hine on ylde eft gewunigen
wilgesiþas, þonne wig cume,
leode gelæsten; lofdædum sceal

in mægþa gehwære man geþeon.
Him ða Scyld gewat to gescæphwile
felahror feran on frean wære.
Hi hyne þa ætbæron to brimes faroðe,
swæse gesiþas, swa he selfa bæd,

þenden wordum weold wine Scyldinga;
leof landfruma lange ahte.



Hearken all, of our warriors, as in former-days, the country’s nobles, heard deeds, of how brave men, earned their praise.

It’s often said Scyld of Scef, from enemy troops, of many nations, snatched away their mead-benches, and scattered earls. Yet when first weaned, he was found friendless, to garner and prepare, waxing under cloudy-skies, to grow upright-minded, until to him all tribes, over the whale-roads, did submit with tribute paid; due this great-kingship.

Thereafter to him a child was given, whom when young at court, was seen as god sent to favor folk: for he felt fearful-woe that in those days he went without a heir too long awhile. He that Frea made wonder-ruler, gave earthly-honor; Beowulf was his name and wide-spread his fame, this offspring of Scyld, throughout the southern lands.

Thus as young men must he did good deeds, gave rich flawless gifts to his father's troupe, that when he came of age, thereafter they remained as willing-friends; and when war came, they served the people, as lofty-fame demands, among each clan and prospered man.

When this Scyld passed at the proper time, he was well resolved to go in Frea's way. So his closest clansmen bore him to the briny froth, as he in-person bid, this wonder-ruler and friend of Scylds, beloved land-giver forever long-remembered.


A good start.

CmacQ

[Cimon]

I'm under the impression that in Odysseia, Odysseus visits the gates of underworld, where he has a conversation with Achilles. This conversation made the character of Achilleus even more tragic, as he doesn't live in glory in the after life, only in mourning. So in a sense, it made all of his heroics vain.

Source, Grimbergs World History, please do correct me if my memory fails me.

Well, I don't know if it's so much mourning, as perhaps some regret over the choice that he made. When they meet in the underworld, Odysseus notes that Achilles was great while he lived, and is still honored, even in death. Achilles replies with something to the effect (depends on the translation), "I would rather be alive and a slave to a poor man, than king of all the dead." So, perhaps he regrets the decision he made to go to Troy, rather than to live a long life on earth, and not be remembered. In that sense, you are probably correct that it makes Achilles more tragic: he thought he knew what he wanted, but, in retrospect, he didn't.

In fact, one could say that he might even have the beginnings on this regret in the Iliad, interestingly enough. In Book 9, when Odysseus and the other warriors lead an embassy to Achilles to induce him to return to the battle, Achilles suggests that he may have made the wrong choice, i.e. to choose "fame imperishable" over a long life that is unremembered, and that maybe it's not too late to change his mind.

However, in a poem about Achilles, that thought gets swept under the rug a bit. After all, the Iliad is about "rage" and glory. Once Achilles returns, all ideas that he made the wrong choice are given short shrift. If the poem was about the wrong choice, perhaps the poem would have been continued until Achilles death, but it isn't.

The Odyssey, by contrast, is of course about Odysseus, who is an entirely different sort of character. Odysseus didn't even want to participate in the Trojan War; when Menelaos put out the call for the Achaioi to unite, Odysseus feigned insanity in an attempt to stay home. Of course, this attempted deception was seen through, and Odysseus went to Troy. However, while Odysseus does his fair share of the fighting, he is first and foremost attempting to stay alive. In Book 7, when Hector offers to fight a duel against any Greek, nine warriors step forward -- but Odysseus is the last one.

So, to circle back to your point, there is at least a partial duality between the characters of Odysseus and Achilles, and between the poems themselves. The scholar Cedric Whitman said,

"There is a wonderful passage in the Odyssey where Odysseus meets the ghost of Achilles in Hades. They are profoundly courteous to each other. Odysseus, outlining his own toils, reminds Achilles that the surpeme honor which the latter receives from all makes light of death; but Achilles, complimenting Odysseus on the magnificence of his adventures, answers that there is no consolation in death, for it is better to be the living slave of a poor man than king of all the dead. Yet, it is hard to imagine Achilles as the slave of a poor man, and hard to believe that he is speaking a literal truth. He is emphasizing the cost of his greatness, the incurable sorrow of being Achilles. He is saying, 'I have suffered the worst, identified myself with it; you have merely survived.' And Odysseus, for his part, says: 'you are very honored indeed, but you are dead; I am doing the really difficult and great thing.' It's the gulf between the two man, and their characteristic views of life, in a few lines."

[Arminius]

On a related note: If you like SF-books, read Dan Simmons' Ilium and Olympos, it's the Iliad and Odyssey in a far future setting.

Very good read in my opinion.


Oh, and hello to everyone, I'm not a vivid poster, but I do read the forum a lot (And I play EB of course!!)

So I will also use this post to thank the EB-mod team for most possibly the best modification ever!!

[cmacq]

Welcome friend.