Hoplite question

[Cyrus]

Why is it that such a huge error is in such a great game? i mean there are clearly better historians than me in this forum but even the lowest gread knower of greek history knows that hoplites are supposed to form a solid wall of shields in front of the enemy to provide defence for one another, why then is it that eb oplites just run like a disorderly mob in front of the enemy?

[a completely inoffensive name]

Ummm, you probably have not seen the phalanx minimod...

[desert]

TWFanatic's phalanx mod fixes that a little, but yeah, their shields should really be interlocked.

It's just game mechanics though; what can you do?

I haven't tested it personally, but I'd bet that the shieldwall trait in BI doesn't solve it either.

[XSamatan]

Just one word: hardcoded

Maybe someone with more modding experience can give you a little more detailed explanation...



and be a little temperate with your words, written things can easy be missunderstood



XSamatan

[Foot]

Why is it that such a huge error is in such a great game? i mean there are clearly better historians than me in this forum but even the lowest gread knower of greek history knows that hoplites are supposed to form a solid wall of shields in front of the enemy to provide defence for one another, why then is it that eb oplites just run like a disorderly mob in front of the enemy?

We have to work within the constraints of the game, and we felt that our representation was quite good. Others have disagreed and made changes accordingly.

Foot

[Maion Maroneios]

There are several things you could do to simulate a historical hoplite phalalx. First of all, try using guard mode when fighting or guarding a position. Secondly, try TWFanatic's phalanx mini-mod, or give them the shieldwall formation if you play on BI. I've done the latter, by the way.

Maion

[Cyrus]

Ok well first of all what i meant must not be understood as an offence or critich to the game or people who created it, just simple curiosity,i love EB exept for it's too frequent crashes......
And secondly what are the guarding position and phalanx mini mod?
Thirdly i have eb from rtw gold edition so should i be able to do the shield wall formation?

[theoldbelgian]

guard position is the button with the shield on in the unit control panel: it makes your units fight more like a solid block
doesn't tire them that much but they seem to fight worse, and they don't chase routing enemies anymore
for the rtw gold: you still have to set eb in on BI just forumsearch for BI and you 'll get there
the greatest problem with this is that your generals no longer supplies in your regions only in city's

[Pontius Pilate]

Ok well first of all what i meant must not be understood as an offence or critich to the game or people who created it, just simple curiosity,i love EB exept for it's too frequent crashes......
And secondly what are the guarding position and phalanx mini mod?
Thirdly i have eb from rtw gold edition so should i be able to do the shield wall formation?

no need to apologize. and yeah, as stated before, it's hardcoded into the game and not much else can be done to fix the hoplite shield wall. although the phalanx minimod helps a little bit. also the shield wall animation is only in Barbarian Invasion expansion. in my opinion I don't like the shield wall from Barbarian Invasion, it makes the unit too small in length and just isn't effective. if you want to get EB on BI anyway, just go to the unofficial EB modding projects of the forum. you must also have B. invasion installed too.

[Maion Maroneios]

it makes the unit too small in length and just isn't effective.

Could you please define the first thing you said? As for their effectiveness, the shieldwall gives them bonuses in defense. Much more reliable than guard mode and more correct than the short_pike attribute, which makes units take weird angles with their spears, plus the back rows hold them in a 45 degree angle. And let us not forget the fact that the short_pike attribute makes units stick together that much, that it becomes completely unhistorical.

Maion

[Pontius Pilate]

Could you please define the first thing you said? As for their effectiveness, the shieldwall gives them bonuses in defense. Much more reliable than guard mode and more correct than the short_pike attribute, which makes units take weird angles with their spears, plus the back rows hold them in a 45 degree angle. And let us not forget the fact that the short_pike attribute makes units stick together that much, that it becomes completely unhistorical.

Maion

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the shield wall in Barbarian Invasion just doesn't work for me. the unit's size and length reduces signifigantly and make it easier to flank, and it seems like they aren't able to fight as well in shield wall than on regular mode with guard mode on, they seem to get overwhelmed more when facing enemies. then again, maybe there is just something wrong with my tactics and the way I am using the shieldwall. and yes, I admit that short_pike attribute makes the unit take strange angles.

[Maion Maroneios]

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but the shield wall in Barbarian Invasion just doesn't work for me. the unit's size and length reduces signifigantly and make it easier to flank, and it seems like they aren't able to fight as well in shield wall than on regular mode with guard mode on, they seem to get overwhelmed more when facing enemies. then again, maybe there is just something wrong with my tactics and the way I am using the shieldwall. and yes, I admit that short_pike attribute makes the unit take strange angles.

While it is true that shieldwall makes individuals form a very tight formation, I'm afraid what you say about them being overwhelmed is incorrect. If you want, I can run test battles for you and present the results. Hoplites with guard mode are definitely much worse than with shieldwall, as with the latter you get the pushing effect plus more aggressive stabs. With guard mode on, your guys will just stand their ground and occasionally a hoplite or two will stab at the enemy. After all, it's 'guard' mode and not normal or aggressive one.

Maion

[Decimus Attius Arbiter]

I used shieldwall in a version of RTR and it made hoplites too hard to attack. If I remember they formed into a box with spears pointing outward. Not exactly shiltron but you couldn't flank them at all. It doesn't matter too much to me since the game's mechanics makes them get shredded by swords. It's best to focus on flanking with assault troops or heavy cavalry. Anyways I like the not quite perfect formation. It would seem robotic if they kept perfect form all the time. In the heat of battle soldiers fought to keep formation while trying to save their skin too.

[oudysseos]

Cyrus,

Although it is, I suppose, a common assertion that hoplite phalanxes routinely fought with the edges of their shields interlocked like a giant Roman testudo formation, in fact this issue is hotly contested in academic circles and the evidence for technical details about hoplite combat is both very sparse and very far from unequivocal.

The major source for the interlocked shields concept seems to be a passage from Thucydides (5.71.1) which has been commonly translated along the lines of

All armies are alike in this: on going into action they get forced out rather on their right wing, and one and the other overlap with this their adversary's left; because fear makes each man do his best to shelter his unarmed side with the shield of the man next him on the right, thinking that the closer the shields are locked together the better will he be protected. The man primarily responsible for this is the first upon the right wing, who is always striving to withdraw from the enemy his unarmed side; and the same apprehension makes the rest follow him.

However! Careful inspection of the greek text is very revealing. A literal translation from Garrett Fagan, Great Battles of the Ancient World, of the bold-face passage above is

Thinking that the denser their closeness is, the better protected they are.

There is no explicit mention of locked or touching shields in the greek at all- the Perseus website can provide excellent commentary on the greek text if you're interested.
Anyways, 'Close' is a pretty subjective term and depends on context- if you and I were together in an elevator, and we were four or six feet apart I would not think that you were 'close' to me. But if we were standing in the middle of a football pitch, I would find six feet to be quite close (at six feet our shields would not touch).

Furthermore, there are several passages from Xenophon in the Anabasis (1.2.17, 6.5.25) that seem to describe relatively loose formations of hoplites.

It is true that Victor Davis Hanson has long asserted the 'locked shields' concept as if it were established fact, but Hans van Wees, for example, is critical of this position. I suggest reading Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities by the latter author.

So maybe the 'lowest gread knower' does think that hoplites are supposed to fight in a shield wall all the time, but a going a few grades up in knowledge might give you a different perspective.

Dogmatic assertions of any kind are, I think, inappropriate. The truth is no-one will ever ever know the precise technical details of hoplite combat. The written sources don't describe the mechanics of combat because they assumed that the majority of their readers were themselves hoplites.

So it seems that the EB team is not so clearly guilty of such a huge error, after all. And as Foot so patiently pointed out, there are some mini-mod alternatives if you really feel strongly about this.

[Cyrus]

I seem to recall in xenophon's anabasis at the battle against the kings forces ( when the brother is still alive) that the greek wing of his army beats the enemy's thanks to thei close and tight formation, anyways thukidides is interpreted also in other ways, would u give the number of that passage please i have his book here.

[SwissBarbar]

Why is it that such a huge error is in such a great game? i mean there are clearly better historians than me in this forum but even the lowest gread knower of greek history knows that hoplites are supposed to form a solid wall of shields in front of the enemy to provide defence for one another, why then is it that eb oplites just run like a disorderly mob in front of the enemy?

Imagine vanilla RTW as a strawberry. You can make it better by adding sugar and stuff. EB is the sugared, chocolate-vanilla-sauced, peach-icecream cultivated version of the strawberry , but you still cannot make a banana out of it.

EB works with the tools V-RTW to give us and make the best they can out of it. I'm sure the know pretty well about phalanxes.

[oudysseos]

Cyrus, I did in fact give you the citation: 5.71.1, i.e. book 5 chapter 71. Here is the original.

ξυνιόντων δ᾽ ἔτι Ἆγις ὁ βασιλεὺς τοιόνδε ἐβουλεύσατο δρᾶσαι. τὰ στρατόπεδα ποιεῖ μὲν καὶ ἅπαντα τοῦτο: ἐπὶ τὰ δεξιὰ κέρατα αὐτῶν ἐν ταῖς ξυνόδοις μᾶλλον ἐξωθεῖται, καὶ περιίσχουσι κατὰ τὸ τῶν ἐναντίων εὐώνυμον ἀμφότεροι τῷ δεξιῷ, διὰ τὸ φοβουμένους προσστέλλειν τὰ γυμνὰ ἕκαστον ὡς μάλιστα τῇ τοῦ ἐν δεξιᾷ παρατεταγμένου ἀσπίδι καὶ νομίζειν τὴν πυκνότητα τῆς ξυγκλῄσεως εὐσκεπαστότατον εἶναι: καὶ ἡγεῖται μὲν τῆς αἰτίας ταύτης ὁ πρωτοστάτης τοῦ δεξιοῦ κέρως, προθυμούμενος ἐξαλλάσσειν αἰεὶ τῶν ἐναντίων τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γύμνωσιν, ἕπονται δὲ διὰ τὸν αὐτὸν φόβον καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι.

My comment on the passages from the Anabasis would be that the Greek formations are dense compared to the Persian forces. This would be true whether you go along with Hanson or van Wees on the density of hoplite formations.

Again, the multiplicity of interpretations of these texts only means that certainty is impossible. To me, that indicates an agnostic attitude is probably best. Rather than say that the EB team committed a huge error, one might say that they have interpreted the data in a way with which you were unfamiliar.

[zooeyglass]

Cyrus, I did in fact give you the citation: 5.71.1, i.e. book 5 chapter 71. Here is the original.

ξυνιόντων δ᾽ ἔτι Ἆγις ὁ βασιλεὺς τοιόνδε ἐβουλεύσατο δρᾶσαι. τὰ στρατόπεδα ποιεῖ μὲν καὶ ἅπαντα τοῦτο: ἐπὶ τὰ δεξιὰ κέρατα αὐτῶν ἐν ταῖς ξυνόδοις μᾶλλον ἐξωθεῖται, καὶ περιίσχουσι κατὰ τὸ τῶν ἐναντίων εὐώνυμον ἀμφότεροι τῷ δεξιῷ, διὰ τὸ φοβουμένους προσστέλλειν τὰ γυμνὰ ἕκαστον ὡς μάλιστα τῇ τοῦ ἐν δεξιᾷ παρατεταγμένου ἀσπίδι καὶ νομίζειν τὴν πυκνότητα τῆς ξυγκλῄσεως εὐσκεπαστότατον εἶναι: καὶ ἡγεῖται μὲν τῆς αἰτίας ταύτης ὁ πρωτοστάτης τοῦ δεξιοῦ κέρως, προθυμούμενος ἐξαλλάσσειν αἰεὶ τῶν ἐναντίων τὴν ἑαυτοῦ γύμνωσιν, ἕπονται δὲ διὰ τὸν αὐτὸν φόβον καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι.

My comment on the passages from the Anabasis would be that the Greek formations are dense compared to the Persian forces. This would be true whether you go along with Hanson or van Wees on the density of hoplite formations.

Again, the multiplicity of interpretations of these texts only means that certainty is impossible. To me, that indicates an agnostic attitude is probably best. Rather than say that the EB team committed a huge error, one might say that they have interpreted the data in a way with which you were unfamiliar.

hear, hear! thank you for posting the greek also, kind of you. i liked your explanation and will read a little more around it.

[Cyrus]

Imagine vanilla RTW as a strawberry. You can make it better by adding sugar and stuff. EB is the sugared, chocolate-vanilla-sauced, peach-icecream cultivated version of the strawberry , but you still cannot make a banana out of it.

EB works with the tools V-RTW to give us and make the best they can out of it. I'm sure the know pretty well about phalanxes.

Mmmmm straberry............ "drools"
Anyway yeah their representation is ok i'm saying however there is much room to improve so maybe in eb 2 we might see something different?
And oudysseos sorry, i guess io missed the part where you said you wrote it anyway thanks.
I have a few more questions regarding the matter,the early triarii, roman hoplites why were they abandoned?they seem even stronger than the late ones.....
And were there any at cannae?
Since i only got as far as the polibian reforms once would anyone explain when,why and how they happened? and why have i never heard of them before? from what i studied polibius was just a writer.....

[Celtic_Punk]

My hoplites perform soundly thankyou.

Put em on Guard mode, and they'll kick ass if they are not flanked. If they are flanked, or the lines change a bit so that they are not straight, and part of your unit is isolated, switch off guard mode, and you'll continue to kick ass.

Hoplites are bomb... Dont let anyone tell you otherwise.

[Ludens]

I have a few more questions regarding the matter,the early triarii, roman hoplites why were they abandoned?they seem even stronger than the late ones.....
And were there any at cannae?
Since i only got as far as the polibian reforms once would anyone explain when,why and how they happened? and why have i never heard of them before? from what i studied polibius was just a writer.....

You are right that Polybius was a writer. The game uses the term Polybian military era to indicate the Roman army as described by Polybius during the second Punic war. This army was significantly better equipped than the armies of the Phyric and first Punic war (in-game called the Camillian military era).

The term "Polybian reform" is used, for want of better alternative, to describe this transformation. It probably wasn't a real reform, but a gradual adaptation of new techniques (Celtic chainmail, Iberian swords) coupled with an increase in wealth that allowed individual Romans to better equip themselves.

[IrishHitman]

In guard mode, they're close enough to replicate that anyway.....

[Cyrus]

Yes of course celticpunk they are fine,just saying i thought they didn't form the interlocking.....
But yeah i agree they kick ass!!! what do you mean "your" hoplites?
Also just off topic question how do i change my signature?
And how did the romans get in touch with the celtic chainmail? before giulius cesar they never went further than gallia transalipina.

[oudysseos]

Look at the second-to-last word in your post and you've answered your own question.

[Ludens]

Also just off topic question how do i change my signature?

At the top left of the screen is a button "User CP", click it and select "edit signature" from the left column.