Units: speculation, rumor, slander and silliness

[Sheogorath]

Alright, since it was brought up in the factions topic, I think it's worth extending the discussion here.

So, we've already got a few units confirmed. A howitzer, grenadiers, and a couple of ships. Not a whole lot to work with. This topic is for speculation about the units factions will possess, their abilities and your hopes involving those units.

As I stated in the other topic, I think the basic European unit structure will be something like this:
(Please note that the below in no way reflects anything historic at all. This is a prediction of what CA will put into the game based on past experience, not what I think a faction should have based on history)

Militia units
Line infantry
Light infantry
Elite light infantry
Grenadiers
Some sort of elite grenadier
Guard units

For cavalry:
Militia cavalry
Hussars
Lancers
Dragoons
Cuirassiers

And for ships
Galleys
Sloops
Frigates
Ships of the Line (Of various classes)

Of course, my HOPE is that factions will have various specific units. Pavlovsk grenadiers for the Russians, Highlanders for the Brits, Cacodores for the Spanish/Portuguese. Essentially something similar to Napoleonic: Total War's lineup.
And, of course, I imagine that the non-European factions will be something like this:

Militia unit (probably melee only)
Archer unit
Line infantry
Light infantry
Elite unit (maybe melee only)

The Asian Indians will probably get some kind of heavy cavalry and rockets, while the American Indians get elite light cavalry and some kind of super skirmishers. And maybe head (scalp?) hurlers.


I'm also hoping that the various factions will have tangible differences between even their basic units. Again, like in NTW. For example, the British basic line infantry were better at shooting than any other line infantry, but were a bit weaker in melee. The Russians, while terrible shots, had the strongest melee units in the game, and a nice morale bonus to represent that classic Russian stubbornness (I did some testing and, in a melee battle, Russian Lieb Guards can route French Old Guard :P). The Spanish had low morale, but a high chance of recovering from a route (I saw a quote somewhere, I believe from a French general, which was something along the lines of 'every time we beat the Spanish on the field, the survivors would run off into the hills. The next day we'd find them assembling for a fight in front of us, ready to repeat the process.') The French, being annoyingly unbalanced in my opinion, seem to be a bit above average in all categories.

Of course, ETW will apparently be set rather before NTW's time period. So perhaps we can hope to see some more powerful Spanish units, from Spain's glory period (even if it was a little tarnished at this point). I do find myself hoping that they don't use the musket sounds from MTW2, though. It just wasn't very satisfying, I think, and they never really got a good volley effect.

The same with naval units. The British should have a nice advantage in terms of the price of their ships, although at the cost of quality, while the French should build excellent ships, at a high cost.

But enough of my thoughts, what about yours?

[Fisherking]

I think that if European powers are facing Elite Native American Cavalry then the game is unbalanced. Maybe just in Texas or something but I hope the eastern tribes are true stumbling blocks to westward expansion…which they were. (hold them for later expansions) Make the Eastern Tribes a serious power in the basic game. Rogers’ Rangers are a special unit…they were only about as good as the tribes and only came into being because most of the Iroquois sat out most of the war.

Maybe the Brits need a special Indian Agent unit…lol


If there is no ships able to bombard forts then I guess we won’t see bomb ketches…or if we do, what good are they.

Only speculating but from the special units announced we may see the French Irish Brigade, maybe the Scots and who knows if the Brits get their German Legion.

I am curious if the Swedish recruiting/manning system will be portrayed in the game.

I don’t see this as just another game. For me it is going to be either the best thing since sliced bread or a huge disappointment at what could have been.

Though they sure aren’t flooding us with information are they?

[Polemists]

Though they sure aren’t flooding us with information are they?

They rarely do, whether your talking MTW2, MTW2 Kingdoms, RTW or RTW BI, none have really been a flood of information. It's never been like MMO or major production game (Mario, Halo, etc) where you are going to get weekly screenshots or videos or something. Even come Janurary I would be shocked if you got anything more then a screenshot every 15 days or so, and maybe one video. They probably won't even announce when the Demo is coming out, for fear that they will miss the date and then be in trouble.

That said, sometime soonish we are supposed to have another dev diary, but when that is, is anyone's guess.




In unit news, I didn't see Elephants mentioned :P

You know they are included.

Last time we had canon elephants, so maybe this time Rocket Elephants.

[Sheogorath]

I was mostly speculating about the 'standard' lineup. You know, like MTW2's 'Town Militia, Spear Militia, Sergeant, Armored Sergeant' lineup.

And, of course, I'm hoping that we'll get some nice splash effects from Elephants too. And a good 'thunk' sound effect when you hit one in the side with a 12lber.

[The_Doctor]

I know this pedantic of me, but dragoons are mounted infantry not cavalry.

[Polemists]

but dragoons are mounted infantry not cavalry

Brain hurt,someone please dumb this saying down for me

[everyone]

he probably means that dragoons are supposed to fight as infantry and are just mounted for the purpose of mobility.

[Oleander Ardens]

Napoleon TW was surly a great mod. Personally I hope to have diverse units.

Austria

Tyrolean Jaeger - rifle
(Tyrolean) Jaeger - short muskets, for fast shooting at short ranges
Tyrolean Sharpshooter - unit with the Girandoni air rifle (high rate of fire & accuracy, short range)
(Pandurs) Grenzer - musket, can shoot well and skirmish
Hungarian line infantry - musket, good melee, subpar shooting
Hungarian Grenadiers - musket, very good melee, high morale
("German") Austrian line infantry - musket
("German") Austrian Grenadiers - musket, good melee, good shooting, high discipline
("German" Landwehr) Milita - musket

Cavalry, taken togheter, perhaps Europeans finest.

("German", Czech) Cuirassiers:
("German", Czech) Chevaulegeres:
(Czech, Italians, "German") Dragoons:
Hungarian Hussars:
(Polish, Ukrainian) Uhlans:


...

and so on. Would be great fun.

[The_Doctor]

he probably means that dragoons are supposed to fight as infantry and are just mounted for the purpose of mobility.

Yes, and dragoons are organised into companies and regiments like infantry, whereas cavalry have troops and squadrons.

[Polemists]

but really really, let's get aside from all this jargon and get down to the core of matter



Who has the biggest cannon in this timeframe?

[Nelson]

I know this pedantic of me, but dragoons are mounted infantry not cavalry.

When first introduced in the 17th century, yes. But like grenadiers, their original function became obsolete. By Frederick the Great's time dragoons were almost exclusively employed as cavalry and invariably referred to as such.

It makes sense. There was plenty of infantry around. Dismounting the dragoons would have wasted them.

[Sol Invictus]

Besides, who wants to fight as a poor bloody infantryman when you have a valiant steed at your call. Much more glorious to take part in a Cavalry charge than to slug it out with a carbine.

[Robespierre]

but really really, let's get aside from all this jargon and get down to the core of matter



Who has the biggest cannon in this timeframe?

Whosoever had the most impressive foundry I expect. Do you think its only size that counts?

[Sheogorath]

I believe the dragoons DID take on a 'mounted infantry' role once again after the Napoleonic Wars, however, when rifles started to become common. The need for cavalry grew less, and people started seeing the advantage of highly mobile infantry again.

Polemists, the Russians :P
The Tsar Cannon has, according to Wikipedia, a calibur of ~900cm, about 35 inches, and was the largest gun in the world from the time it was built until the World War II. Apparently it was designed to fire grapeshot down Moscow's main street in the event of an attack on the city, and was never used.

In terms of the largest cannons that were actually used (in this period), I believe that award goes to the Turks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Turkish_Bombard

n 1464, Mehmed II commissioned 42 of the monster cannons to guard the Dardanelles. Each weighed 18 tonnes with a 750 mm (30 in) bore.

These huge cannons were still present for duty more than 300 years later in 1807, when a Royal Navy force appeared and commenced the Dardanelles Operation. Turkish forces loaded the ancient relics with propellant and projectiles, then fired them at the British ships. Instead of exploding, the cannon worked just as well as when they were new. Two shots on a single British ship killed 60 sailors.[3]

In 1867, Abdülâziz gave Queen Victoria one of these impressive and historic weapons. It became a part of the Royal Armouries collection and was displayed to visitors at the Tower of London[4] and was then moved to Fort Nelson at Portsmouth.

I can't see something like that being effective in battle though...it'd take all day to reload. And it looks like their accuracy wasn't so great.

But hey, they had them in MTW2, why not do it again? :P

Anyway...in terms of actual EFFECTIVE cannons, I'd be willing to bet on the Russians. They favored their artillery the way other European nations tended to favor cavalry.

[Oleander Ardens]

There is little doubt that overall the most effective artillery was French. Brilliant organization, effective standartization, highly trained men and officers due to tradition and much love by Napoleon. Of course part of the great impact it made in the large battles is also due to the tactical genius of Napoleon, which usually deployed it where it's strenghts could shine.

Still the Russian Artillery was quite surly the best of the Allies, with a huge number of guns and very brave and well trained men serving them.

[Megas Methuselah]

I am curious if the Swedish recruiting/manning system will be portrayed in the game.

Yeah, it should be interesting to see how CA spins this out.

[Sheogorath]

There is little doubt that overall the most effective artillery was French. Brilliant organization, effective standartization, highly trained men and officers due to tradition and much love by Napoleon. Of course part of the great impact it made in the large battles is also due to the tactical genius of Napoleon, which usually deployed it where it's strenghts could shine.

Still the Russian Artillery was quite surly the best of the Allies, with a huge number of guns and very brave and well trained men serving them.

The debate of Russian vs. French artillery is an endless one. It's all based on what sources you think are more reliable, since nobody from the period agrees on that subject.

But the question was who had the largest cannon. It's simply my guess that the Russians would be the ones to deploy the largest cannons in battle. It's just a Russian thing :P

[Mailman653]

Generally speaking though, the time frame will have Royal French soldiers, not Republican French soldiers (unless there is a successful revolution). Therefore, a more accurate debate would be artillery in the Royal French army vs the Russian's.

I don't know much about this subject to be honest but military doctrine between the French army before Napoleon and after in regards to artillery deployment could be quite different.

But going back on topic, it would be funny if you can recruit elephants in one part of the world, put them on a boat and send them somewhere else. Imagine an elephant going wild in the streets of Vienna.

[Sheogorath]

Hmmmm...
*Formulating plans to conquer India as Spain and march across the Alps with imported elephants.*

[Megas Methuselah]

@Sheo: I'd much rather spark and lead a successful French revolution and rule as First Consul!!

[Sheogorath]

@Sheo: I'd much rather spark and lead a successful French revolution and rule as First Consul!!

Why not do both? Who says you can't have the French Revolution in Spain?

[Oleander Ardens]

The debate of Russian vs. French artillery is an endless one. It's all based on what sources you think are more reliable, since nobody from the period agrees on that subject.

But the question was who had the largest cannon. It's simply my guess that the Russians would be the ones to deploy the largest cannons in battle. It's just a Russian thing :P

It is a large discussion, although there are quite a few more "neutral" sources (allied countries) which suport the case for the French artillery. Still I hope that I have to fear every artillery piece of a major power, and the Russians had plenty of them

Generally speaking though, the time frame will have Royal French soldiers, not Republican French soldiers (unless there is a successful revolution). Therefore, a more accurate debate would be artillery in the Royal French army vs the Russian's.

I don't know much about this subject to be honest but military doctrine between the French army before Napoleon and after in regards to artillery deployment could be quite different.

True. But over such a long period comparisions are even more difficult.

BTW: Also the Western Nations had around 1700 better industrial metallurgy than the rest and should get bonuses for their guns and muskets.

[Megas Methuselah]

Why not do both? Who says you can't have the French Revolution in Spain?

Life is good! Yay!

[Sheogorath]

It is a large discussion, although there are quite a few more "neutral" sources (allied countries) which suport the case for the French artillery. Still I hope that I have to fear every artillery piece of a major power, and the Russians had plenty of them

Indeed. One thing that is not debated is that the Russians had MORE guns than anybody else :P

True. But over such a long period comparisions are even more difficult.

BTW: Also the Western Nations had around 1700 better industrial metallurgy than the rest and should get bonuses for their guns and muskets.

I, personally, am hoping that (once again with the NTW comparisons) each faction will have its own built in advantages and disadvantages. As I mentioned in the OP, the British are good at shooting, but not so hot with the bayonet. The Russians can't shoot, but have an all-round bonus in melee and a morale boost (not to mention, in NTW, their militia unit will kick anybodies ass with their hatchets o' doom :P), the Spanish have low morale, but a high recovery chance, the Prussians have expensive, but very, very, effective infantry. And the French, of course, have numbers. Levee en mass!

Life is good! Yay!

Other suggested alternate history scenarios:

Sweden invades Mexico
Greece finally takes its revenge on the Persians (We know Greece is in there. Every other screenshot shows what looks like a Greek flag to me .-.)
Denmark and Belgium settle their ancient differences on bloody battlefields in Burma
Portugal seizes Scotland
Russia invades Switzerland (Oh wait, that actually happened )
Andorra invades and conquers France, Spain and Portugal. It then goes on to supplant the UK as the worlds great colonizer.
Tuscany re-unites Italy, deposes the Pope, reestablishes the Roman Empire, bans Christianity and launches a crusade against the filthy Christian dogs. Then feeds them to the lions.

[Megas Methuselah]

And the French, of course, have numbers. Levee en mass!

But the French Levee en mass didn't come into being until the French Revolution, I believe. I wonder if CA will portray levee en masse at all. It'd be pretty sweet if they did.

Tuscany re-unites Italy, deposes the Pope, reestablishes the Roman Empire, bans Christianity and launches a crusade against the filthy Christian dogs. Then feeds them to the lions.

Hmm. Unite much of Europe under the Roman Republic, then start a revolution to form the Roman Empire under a monarch! Yeah!

[Sheogorath]

But the French Levee en mass didn't come into being until the French Revolution, I believe. I wonder if CA will portray levee en masse at all. It'd be pretty sweet if they did!

Apparently the Ancien Regime practiced recruitment by ballot, which is sort of similar. The first proper one occured during the French Revolution.

But, even so, the French had the largest population in Europe at the time. In 1700 France apparently had around 21 million people. In 1722 Russia only had 14 million. Apparently the Russian population didn't exceed the French until around 1800.

Hmm. Unite much of Europe under the Roman Republic, then start a revolution to form the Roman Empire under a monarch! Yeah!

Then counter-revolution and form the Soviet Socialist Republic of Rome? SSRR?

[Megas Methuselah]

Apparently the Ancien Regime practiced recruitment by ballot, which is sort of similar. The first proper one occured during the French Revolution.

But that's the thing. A proper levee en masse could literally bring a million men under arms, a devastating number compared to the professional armies of the time.

Btw, I wonder if a communist "republic" could actually be created in-game through clever use of taxes and buildings, etc. It'd be pretty cool, methinks.

[ULC]

Sheogorath, what is this most interesting NTW you speak of that I must now try?

[Megas Methuselah]

Heh. I would answer that question, but you have clearly asked Sheo. Let him answer.

[Sheogorath]

Sheogorath, what is this most interesting NTW you speak of that I must now try?

Its a Napoleonic mod for Rome Total War. You don't even need BI for it.
You do, however, need other people to play against. The RTW is even worse at Napoleonic tactics than it is at Roman ones.

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=154308&page=5

Scroll down to post #85 there.

You also need the 1.3 and 1.5 patches, and a fresh install of RTW.

It's an excellent mod, and the unit models/textures are quite amazing, given that they're done in RTW.

Heh. I would answer that question, but you have clearly asked Sheo. Let him answer.

Gratse :P

On the subject of the levee en masse, since the game has apparently been confirmed to end in 1800, I doubt we'll see it represented. Maybe in the inevitable 'Empire: Total War, Revolutions' expansion :P