Cruvamendica (Goidilic Cavalry) Description Incorrect

[Riastradh]

The Historical discription for these units seems to be incorrect. Specifically this passage,

"Historically, the Goidilic tribes adopted ponies as mounts in favor of heavier horses and chariots, generally (some chariots and larger horses were used) because the ground of Ireland was too wet or rocky for a chariot or horse to move over swiftly."

This is untrue as the irish were famous for their chariots and charioteers. In fact many of the stories of ancient irish heroes such as Cuchulainn specifically speak of their awesome chariot skills. The Irish were still using some chariots when they were raiding roman britain(200-500AD), transporting them across the sea in small boats called curraghs. It's thought that the gaels didn't begin to phase out chariots till they realized from contact with the saxons that cavalry was cheaper and more manuverable to use. The Irish didn't full phase them out till around the 7th century.

Also the celts were famous for their chariot making skills and had possibly the most advanced and finely crafted chariots in the world. The Celtic chariot was drawn by a team of two horses, and measures approximately 2 m (6.56 ft) in width and 4 m (13 ft) in length. The one-piece iron rims for chariot wheels were probably a Celtic invention. Apart from the iron wheel rims and iron fittings of the hub, it was constructed from wood and wicker-work. In some instances, iron rings reinforced the joints. Another Celtic innovation was the free-hanging axle, suspended from the platform with rope. This resulted in a much more comfortable ride on bumpy terrain. There is evidence from French coins of a leather 'suspension' system for the central box, and a complex system of knotted cords for its attachment; this has informed recent working reconstructions by archaeologists.

According to Julius Caesar the Briton celts were the greatest charioteers in the world, capable of doing things in chariots other civilizations would not even try or think possible. So why the downplay?

[Celtic_Punk]

You just said that Irish aren't celts... and had nothing to do with Celtic warrior culture!! would you like to retract that statement earlier?

Also I wouldn't say that the Goidlic cavalry is incorrect. they DEFINITELY had light cavalry like that, there is solid evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game. And chariots in Eire would have been so similar to other celtic chariots that there's no real reason to warrant another unit space taken up by a unique unit.

I'd like to see you attempt to extensively field chariots all over our island... Even with the roads we have today it'd be a hellish sight. (with the way they wind all over the place and turn into half a lane)

I am quite happy with the number of unique units from Eire, and was a little surprised that they were actually in there when i first played EB.

Which I have yet to thank the EB team for... THANKS GUYS! :)

[bovi]

As far as I can see, the description says that chariots and larger horses were used, however smaller mounts were more usual (and then the chariots were drawn by smaller mounts too, according to a post I found by Anthony in our internal forum). What is your problem here? Would you rather it said cavalry was hardly used, and if so why? Do you contest that the terrain could be favourable to smaller horses?

I also don't see why you bring Briton chariots into this, as what you appear to question is the proportion of use of chariots versus small cavalry in Ireland.

[lobf]

You just said that Irish aren't celts... and had nothing to do with Celtic warrior culture!! would you like to retract that statement earlier?

Also I wouldn't say that the Goidlic cavalry is incorrect. they DEFINITELY had light cavalry like that, there is solid evidence, otherwise it wouldn't be in the game. And chariots in Eire would have been so similar to other celtic chariots that there's no real reason to warrant another unit space taken up by a unique unit.

I'd like to see you attempt to extensively field chariots all over our island... Even with the roads we have today it'd be a hellish sight. (with the way they wind all over the place and turn into half a lane)

I am quite happy with the number of unique units from Eire, and was a little surprised that they were actually in there when i first played EB.

Which I have yet to thank the EB team for... THANKS GUYS! :)

I'm sure you're using sources and not just conjecture and opinion, so I'd love to hear where you learned all your history!

[Celtic_Punk]

thats like asking the EB team that question dude... Im just supporting them. They've done their research. I'm willing to trust them. Plus I've got experience in my own island as well. Logically smaller horses, and cavalry not chariots, are better suited to the constant rain many marshes, and terrain of Eire.

Have you ever been there lobf?

[saxonbattlemask]

celtic punk is right i live in ireland i know

[lobf]

thats like asking the EB team that question dude... Im just supporting them. They've done their research. I'm willing to trust them. Plus I've got experience in my own island as well. Logically smaller horses, and cavalry not chariots, are better suited to the constant rain many marshes, and terrain of Eire.

Have you ever been there lobf?

...Yes, it would be like asking them that same thing. I don't understand your point. It's not like the team hasn't been wrong in the past. And what experience on your island prepares you to answer a question about the types of horses they used there thousands of years ago? I mean, I'm not even saying you're necessarily wrong, just that you don't know what you're saying. Stop dropping "facts" without reason. ("They said it first" is not a reason.)

And yeah, I've been to Ireland. My grandpa was raised there and I still have family there. What's this got to do with anything?

celtic punk is right i live in ireland i know

Thank you, professor Ireland.

[Celtic_Punk]

how many different celtic peoples used light skirmisher cavalry?

why would Eire be any different? plus the fact that theres smaller horses there than other places in comparison.
(well anything under 14 hands is considered a pony, correct?)

Especially in a place where the preferred chariots get bogged down in the mud and rain and thus slaughtered .
Jesus... I dont mean have you been there on vacation. and just happend to be there the one weekend it didn't rain. (which never ever ever happens lol)

here we'll play a little game, you can be Bodaccia invading ireland, and I can be the dirty useless fenian that pulls you off your bogged down chariot and slays you because you decided riding a horse in that climate is stupid.

do me a favour lobf, keep mum

[Tellos Athenaios]

Have you ever been there lobf?

And yeah, I've been to Ireland. My grandpa was raised there and I still have family there. What's this got to do with anything?

Perhaps...

Logically smaller horses, and cavalry not chariots, are better suited to the constant rain many marshes, and terrain of Eire.

Or is that too obvious? Mind you I've never been to Ireland, but having been to something called a
'wetland' (which is where local muncipality used to keep horses) I can assure you that such terrain isn't very suited to the larger breeds. And that's not even a bog, yet.

[lobf]

Perhaps...


Or is that too obvious? Mind you I've never been to Ireland, but having been to something called a
'wetland' (which is where local muncipality used to keep horses) I can assure you that such terrain isn't very suited to the larger breeds. And that's not even a bog, yet.

Like I said, I'm not even stating he's wrong. I'm opposed to throwing out opinions like facts because they sound right. Or because you're from Ireland. Let's have some expert testimony about the kinds of horses from the era. Until then, I wouldn't consider this question addressed.

Edit- As if Ireland is a giant swamp.

[Taliferno]

There is clear archaeological evidence that calvary (or at least horse riding/mounted Infantry) was used in Ireland during this time period as horse riding bits and trappings account for about a quarter of all metal la tene finds in Ireland. There is little evidence in the archaeological context for chariots though, and if it wasn't for the Irish early christian myths placing great emphasis on the use of chariots, most archaeologists would probably agree that no chariots were used at all in Ireland, other than the odd imported prestige piece from Britain.

[lobf]

how many different celtic peoples used light skirmisher cavalry?

why would Eire be any different? plus the fact that theres smaller horses there than other places in comparison.
(well anything under 14 hands is considered a pony, correct?)

Especially in a place where the preferred chariots get bogged down in the mud and rain and thus slaughtered .
Jesus... I dont mean have you been there on vacation. and just happend to be there the one weekend it didn't rain. (which never ever ever happens lol)

here we'll play a little game, you can be Bodaccia invading ireland, and I can be the dirty useless fenian that pulls you off your bogged down chariot and slays you because you decided riding a horse in that climate is stupid.

do me a favour lobf, keep mum

1. Everyone used light skirmisher cavalry. Not necessarily exclusively.

2. Taliferno makes me wonder where you base the use of Chariots off of.

3. Like I said, Ireland isn't a giant swamp.

Again, CP, let's simply bring this tiff to a close by ending the conjecture. Give me sources and I'll "keep mum."

[Celtic_Punk]

Edit- As if Ireland is a giant swamp.

It gets close mate. i wouldn't doubt if the whole island has at one time been just one massive marsh at one point or another. and yeah i'm not denying that you can use a chariot there. but to be honest, you'd be hoping your enemies attack on the ODD sunny day with dry firm ground. even when its sunny the ground is either muggy or soft. its not even the best place for cavalry, which is why we were never known for a mounted warrior culture... except when foolish christian monks made things up.
(which they did all the bloody time, you gotta sift through alot of bull when it comes to that stuff. specifically attire and the fact that there aparently were mounds of gold there... You can probably find that the first case of the infamous leprechaun came from some monk talking about alot of gold owned by some midget gael.)

The best instance of christian monks making things up about ireland is saying that "St. Patrick removed the blight of snakes from Ireland when they converted to Catholicism" pfffft as if snakes ever existed on ireland. We hardly can!

[lobf]

It gets close mate. i wouldn't doubt if the whole island has at one time been just one massive marsh at one point or another.

But you wouldn't really know. I mean, nobody can really know, but you haven't even checked, have you?

and yeah i'm not denying that you can use a chariot there. but to be honest, you'd be hoping your enemies attack on the ODD sunny day with dry firm ground. even when its sunny the ground is either muggy or soft. its not even the best place for cavalry, which is why we were never known for a mounted warrior culture... except when foolish christian monks made things up.
(which they did all the bloody time, you gotta sift through alot of bull when it comes to that stuff. specifically attire and the fact that there aparently were mounds of gold there... You can probably find that the first case of the infamous leprechaun came from some monk talking about alot of gold owned by some midget gael.)

Okay.

The best instance of christian monks making things up about ireland is saying that "St. Patrick removed the blight of snakes from Ireland when they converted to Catholicism" pfffft as if snakes ever existed on ireland. We hardly can!

But, again, you wouldn't really know because you haven't done any research. So here we are again: Stop postulating for a while. Even if you were right about any of these issues, it may as well be a guess.

[Celtic_Punk]

I do know about that St. Paddy's bs. I did do my research, long long ago. snakes did not exist on Ireland when st.paddy was around. He never played the pied piper, and took our snakes away. I was merely trying to point out that there are alot of misconceptions about the history of ireland due to the rampant fantasies of christian monks who wrote a load of hogwosh. You can find this out by going to the many "history of ireland" sites around there, such as the one in Armagh on the site of Emain Macha. I have done some research. Apparently you've done none.

[Taliferno]

Just to make something clear, although there is little archaeological evidence of chariots in Ireland there is to much to ignore in the early christian/medieval laws and myths to say that they were never used. I believe (I don't have my books in front of me) that one of the names for an Irish caste was 'chariot rider', for example. Its just my personal opinion that the use of chariots has been overstated in the tales, and that calvary was much more common.

As to the climate of Iron Age Ireland, it was a bit wetter and colder than modern day Ireland. The biggest difference though was that it was covered in forests.

[Celtic_Punk]

That too, there are many accounts of Ireland have huge tracks of forests. This makes chariot riding a wee bit tough due to their tendency to handle like a cruise missile.

You say i'm not qualified to make a theory? how many people got somewhere from dead reckoning? If i were to pick between cavalry and chariots in ireland. I'd pick cavalry. Why would they choose otherwise? it makes no sense. Chariots would have been used for ceremonies more often than battle. purely because the conditions are piss poor. If you've ever spent more than 30 days straight in ireland you would understand that.

Just because we're irish doesnt mean we are stupid... Why would we use chariots more than cavalry?

[Gatalos de Sauromatae]

Just to make something clear, although there is little archaeological evidence of chariots in Ireland there is to much to ignore in the early christian/medieval laws and myths to say that they were never used. I believe (I don't have my books in front of me) that one of the names for an Irish caste was 'chariot rider', for example. Its just my personal opinion that the use of chariots has been overstated in the tales, and that calvary was much more common.

Yeah! Tales and legends sometime overstate the use of things. In my home country, Thailand there are many tales, legends and folk lores about kings, nobles and lords used extensively of chariots in warfare and duel which actually really nearly impossible to practice in ancient Thailand coz the dense of forest and soft soil of the delta and river banks. However, chariots exist in using even today(Only for few cremonies and some tradition practices) in Thailand just overstate the usage in that tales and legends.

PS. 1.Sorry for not having reference and link coz those tales and legends are primary source in Thai if some of you interesting them I will try to find some link later(BTW These stuff will be out of the topic of EB time frame).
2.I'm just want to support the idea that MYTHS like tale, folk lore, legend and saga sometime overstate stuff. You need archaelogical information to proof the fact.
3.I do believe Bovi and Celtic punk post the right points.

[oudysseos]

Lobf, Celtic Punk, cut it out and grow up. You can disagree with each other and still be polite. CP, to be fair, you are just spouting opinions and assertions. Cite some sources. I actually live in Ireland and if I saw archaeological evidence of chariots I wouldn't dismiss it just 'cos it 'doesn't make sense'. Lobf, there's no need to be such a gowk.

I mean it kids. I'll turn this car right around.

[Celtic_Punk]

I've said my piece and I think I've made my point. And more than one person has agreed with me. I think I've made my mark on the world here. G'day to you sir!


... Still if you wanna debate.. ill face you in... Pankration!!!!!

[bovi]

... Still if you wanna debate.. ill face you in... Pankration!!!!!

Way to make people take you seriously .

[Celtic_Punk]

tryin to lighten the mood here. which is desperately needs. I think this issue has been addressed however. It should be locked to avoid futher frustrations and whathave you's

[oudysseos]

By the way, CP, Ireland has, according to Wikipedia, 12k square kilometers of bog, a great deal of which however is man-made, either from forest clearances dating back to the bronze age or more recent attempts by Bord na Mona (not including my back yard which is a big fecking swamp). The island is ca. 85k square kilometers, which makes me guesstimate that in the EB period as much as 10 percent of the land may have been bog. This doesn't seem to preclude chariot combat on the face of it, no matter what might make sense to you or me. And indeed Riastradh was right to an extent: there are numerous literary references to chariots in Ireland, even if one leaves out the Tain. Also there are some carved reliefs, mostly on crosses, such as Clonmacnoise and the Ahenny High Cross. So I don't think that you can dismiss Irish chariots so quickly. Of course, all of the evidence for Irish chariots comes from a much later period than EB.

Róda, cis lir-side? n i, a .u. .i. slighi 7 ród 7 lamraite 7 tograide 7 bothar. caide int slige? n i, discuet da carput sech in aile, doronad fri imairecc da carpat .i. carpat rig 7 carrpat espuic ara ndichet cechtar nai sech araile. Ród: docuet carpat 7 da oeneoch de imbi, doronad fri echraite mendoto a medon (CIH iii 893. 22-25).

[Roads, how many are there? Not hard: five, that is the highway, the road, the byroad, the winding road and the cow path. What is a highway? Not hard: two chariots can pass on it. It is made for the meeting of two chariots, that is the chariot of a king and the chariot of a bishop, that they can pass by each other. Road: a chariot and two riders can pass on it. It is made for riding on a road within a territory.]

BLA CARBAT AENACH .i. Slan donti beires in carbat isin naenach; slan do ce bristir in carbat isinn ænach 7 narabg tre borblachas, 7 mad ed on is fiach fo aicned a fatha air; 7 slan d'fir in carbait ce foglaid in carbat risium 7 na raib fis crine na etallais na haicbeile, 7 da raib is fiach fa aicned a fatha air (CIH i 283.28).

[Exceptions regarding chariots at yearly gatherings. This is, who brings a chariot to a gathering is exempt from compensation. He is exempt from paying compensation even if the chariot is broken at the gathering, provided the damage is not due to unreasonable use of force. If this is the case, he is liable to the full compensation. The owner of the chariot is also exempt from compensation if the chariot damages anyone, provided he had no knowledge of it being in bad repair, its looseness or its dangerousness. If he had knowledge of it, he has to pay compensation according to the damage inflicted.]

Facts are nice.

Oh, and I'm wondering, Riastradh- in this thread you characterize the Irish as famous for their chariots and in the next paragraph say that the Celts were great chariot-makers. But in another thread you claim that the Irish had nothing to do with Celts. WTF?

[Zradha Pahlavan]

Also the celts were famous for their chariot making skills and had possibly the most advanced and finely crafted chariots in the world.

I'm actually not sure that their chariots were that great when compared to others used in history. In the time period of EB they were the only chariots still used for military purposes, other than the occasional scythed chariot, which weren't that useful except for their scythes.

But if you go back before EB, the Celtic chariotry is really outclassed. The Hittites and Assyrians fielded heavy three-man chariots that were far more capable in a charge or a sustained melee than the chariots of later times. And of course there were the famous light chariots used as archery platforms, though their usefulness probably came more from the archer's skill than the chariot itself. But back to the point, chariot building was practically an art form in the mid-east before the average cavalryman took over. The Hittite chariots were particularly well regarded for their fine construction, though the Egyptian vehicles were much lighter by comparison.

[bovi]

I think this issue has been addressed however. It should be locked to avoid futher frustrations and whathave you's

I think we have yet to hear back from the original poster. Anyway, thank you for the vote of confidence by accepting EB's word as law for some reason, but perhaps jumping in the face of newcomers isn't the right way to get input to our project. This query has none of the antagonism that certain others have had, and it brings arguments supported by stories. I'm just not certain what exactly is the objective yet.

[lobf]

Lobf, Celtic Punk, cut it out and grow up. You can disagree with each other and still be polite. CP, to be fair, you are just spouting opinions and assertions. Cite some sources. I actually live in Ireland and if I saw archaeological evidence of chariots I wouldn't dismiss it just 'cos it 'doesn't make sense'. Lobf, there's no need to be such a gowk.

I mean it kids. I'll turn this car right around.

That's how I argue when I'm drunk at 3 a.m. after fighting with my girlfriend.

I've said my piece and I think I've made my point. And more than one person has agreed with me. I think I've made my mark on the world here. G'day to you sir!


... Still if you wanna debate.. ill face you in... Pankration!!!!!

Seriously, dude? More than one person has agreed with you? How is that relevant to the veracity of your statements? I'm sure I could get someone here to agree that the Jooz run the banks, but that doesn't make it right.

Just stop pretending to know things that you can only guess.

[Ibrahim]

That's how I argue when I'm drunk at 3 a.m. after fighting with my girlfriend.

no excuse

@CP: manners man. jumping at junior members is no way of acting here. just my 2cents.

in any event, why hasn't the OP of this answered to the questions directed at him in particular? Riastradh here only posted twice, and then just stopped. something is wrong here.

[The Persian Cataphract]

According to Julius Caesar the Briton celts were the greatest charioteers in the world, capable of doing things in chariots other civilizations would not even try or think possible. So why the downplay?

There is no downplaying anywhere, just common prudence: Chariotry in warfare were declining since the fall of the Assyrian hegemony, and the ascendancy of the era of the Tetrarchy. Assyriologists have in particular reserved a unique fascination for the Mitanni heavy chariotry (Mariyannu) which in many ways marked the crest of Near Eastern military technology, especially as far as horse-bardings are concerned (Besides the battle of Kadesh between the Egyptian and Hittite kingdoms).

These times were from several centuries from that of Julius Caesar's contemporary world modestly speaking. Where was Julius Caesar in all of his life and why does he make laudatory reference to Briton chariotry when conventional cavalry had in essence replaced chariotry in the rest of the world? The Indians too used chariots, but eventually relegated as symbols of military status. If you cannot spot one critical flaw with using Julius Caesar's narration as a yard-stick reference, then one must dispute your judgement. Chariots fell out of use in militaria because in comparison to cavalry it just wasn't as effective.

[Riastradh]

Ok dont have much time for this reply so I will try to explain a bit more til I get home from work. First the part that is incorrect about the description is that chariots weren't used much in favor of light cavalry. While Light cavarly was used, so were chariots. A lot of Irish Legends speak specifically of them. My main goal is that it should be acknowledged that the Irish fielded chariots quite often, not that they appeared rarely.

The Reason why I included the part about celtic/british chariots is mainly concerning the casse chariots in comparison to others such as the pontic ones in EB. Casse chariots in game have very limited use and in antiquity, Caesar himself says they were a very powerful force to be reckoned with.

Also, to those siting that people should know what Ireland's terrain/geogreaphy is like and such, I am very well aware of the land of Eire. I was born and raised in Killarney, Co. Kerry Ireland. While I currently live in States, I still go back every year to visit my cousins in Dundalk, Co. Louth.

Will explain more later tonight.

[Celtic_Punk]

The fact is Chariots are much more poetical than light cavalry rushing up throwing javalins then retreating. legends are to inspire people to do brave things. i can hardly call light cavalry brave... maybe ballsy but not brave. well in comparison to rushing a gap with a chariot. but the fact remain aswell, its almost impossible to widely field chariots on the island.