Bosnian Girl! Yugoslavia revisited

[Sarmatian]

it still shames me -- and boggles my mind -- how little we did to stop the killing.

But how much you did to encourage it...

[Louis VI the Fat]

To this day, it still shames me -- and boggles my mind -- how little we did to stop the killing.

Aye, same here. There must've been more we could've done.

But how much you did to encourage it...

How so?

I hope you realize that doing more to stop the killing would have resulted in more killing.

Howz dat?

[Martok]

But how much you did to encourage it...

I second Louis' question: Huh?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Gentlemen:

I believe that Sarmatian is suggesting that Western European and US efforts in the former Yugoslavia had a distinctly anti-Serb tone to them, which he may believe created encouragement for Croats, Muslims and others who were committing acts of violence against Serbs.

I'd suspect that pursuing that line too far will bring us into a classic chicken/egg discussion of the causes of the conflict.


Louis:

While crass, soldiers stationed in foreign areas have been doing that sort of thing for millenia. The life of the doughboy/poilus/GI/Thin Red Lineman is largely comprised of boredom, boring food, and the absence of female company interspersed with brief periods of stress and terror. This is NOT a regimen designed to promote cultural sensitivity. I'd be surprised if the lad who penned the nasty slur about Bosnian women would have turned down an offer of "companionship" from same if the opportunity materialized. How much misogyny is simply the product of frustration?

Besides, how does the Netherlands staff their armed forces? Are they volunteers carefully screened or does the larger society loathe its own military and thereby contribute to the military serving as a dumping ground? I don't know enough to be sure on all points.

[Brenus]

“I believe that Sarmatian is suggesting that Western European and US efforts in the former Yugoslavia had a distinctly anti-Serb tone to them, which he may believe created encouragement for Croats, Muslims and others who were committing acts of violence against Serbs.”
I agree. And it was what was broadcasted or printed…

The description (except for the smell) would apply better for the girl for Shumadia, mind you.
The Bosnian girls I met (Croat, Serb or Muslim) were in the most beautiful girls I ever see. And I travelled a lot.

For the smell, after 2 or 3 weeks in the local conditions (no water, fire wood, cold temperatures, no real possibility of washing clothes etc) you can’t even imagine what it was…
Louis, by the way, Srebrenica was quite well fed –comparing other populations in the country- , except the Serbian hostages of course... UNWFP and UNHCR did provide a lot to the town, but with a military garrison (Bosnian Army) outnumbering their attacking opponents…

“Even if the UN could have done anything, would it have really, actually done anything to save lives?”
Er, kind of what the Russian did to Georgia: first shelling start military operations….
- Understanding of the situation
- Stop to believe our own propaganda
- Not falling in the ultra - nationalist trap
- Stick to our own value (multi ethnicity, religious tolerance etc) and stop to help and support Nazi and Religious Extremist…
- A more balance approach…

To be continued…

[rory_20_uk]

People want to kill each other for such great reasons as it's sanctioned by God.

"Please stop" - "No"
"It's wrong" - "No it isn't"
"We'll send in troops" - "And?"
"OK, unless you stop killing them, we'll kill you" - "Aaaaah, now you speak my language!"

As Seamus Fermanagh points out, the soldiers don't want to be there, away from their families surrounded by simmering resentment and if they are Believers away from the "important" wars elsewhere to keep two lots of madmen from killing each other, and the onliy gratitude they get is occasional bombs or other attacks.

Until they don't want to kill each other it's going to continue. The Ottomans managed to stop them by the same tried and tested methods we're employing - the threat of overwhelming and indisciminate force.

[Shaka_Khan]

The way I see it, NATO went and stopped the killings but they were very late. It was more about when they should've intervened rather than how much more they should've done. This was actually one of the fastest wars as soon as the American planes started to do something.

[Brenus]

“People want to kill each other for such great reasons as it's sanctioned by God.”:
Doesn’t apply for Yugoslavia. Most of them grown up during Tito and were Atheist. Even now, Churches and Mosques are almost empty.
These wars were nationalist, not religious. The problem was nothing really makes the difference between a Croat, a Serb and a Muslim (nationality invented by Tito to gain the leadership of the “non-aligned” countries) except religion. They speak the same language, have the same ethnic background, same culture. Listen to the same music, eat the same food BUT they are Catholic, Orthodox or Muslim.

“Until they don't want to kill each other it's going to continue. The Ottomans managed to stop them by the same tried and tested methods we're employing - the threat of overwhelming and indiscriminate force.”
What? The Ottoman Empire wasn’t the best ever Empire, but one thing it didn’t was the use of indiscriminate force. The use of force was in fact quite discriminated. The wall of skulls in Nis was counter balanced by the fact you could integrate in the local administration (by conversion). Some Serbs did well and even got high position within the Ottoman Empire. So, we are here far from what you assume…

In general, too much half-lies or half-truth, distorted the field realities. In History like on events, when you start to believe in your opinions and mix-up these with facts you are sure to make mistakes.
Even today, you will still have newspapers referring to the “systematic” rape campaign that even The Hague doesn’t dare to refer to.
Even today, some will refer to the number of victims from the initial allegation even if bodies were never found, and in fact even proved wrong in some cases…

[Louis VI the Fat]

Louis:

While crass, soldiers stationed in foreign areas have been doing that sort of thing for millenia. The life of the doughboy/poilus/GI/Thin Red Lineman is largely comprised of boredom, boring food, and the absence of female company interspersed with brief periods of stress and terror. This is NOT a regimen designed to promote cultural sensitivity.

I've fallen for it again! Banquo explained to me some time ago as well that those whose life consists of eating mud interspersed with throwing sticks and rocks over to the other camp may not share all my cultivated manners. What can I say? I am a prissy princess, given more to studying the exact manner of using a silk napkin to wipe off creamy caramel dripping from a puffy profiterole. I cry when a cuddly kitten gets a mean thorn in his his little pawny pawn.


Nevertheless, the complete disrespect the graffiti shows for the people the makers were supposed to protect is shocking. And, such is my convinction, quite telling. And not irrelevant to the choices that were made eventually. Who would risk life and limbs over a few smelly Bosnian beasts? A racist graffiti 'joke' over smelly men and hairy women is only made when people will laugh at it, when the maker knows that people will 'get it'. The army leadership either failed in maintaining necessary standards for Peacekeeping mission - that is, at the very least respect the people you are protecting - or shared to some extent the racism and disrespect for the locals. There is more to these drawings then coarsity. Graffiti that relates in intimate detail how bored soldiers, deprived of female companionship, are going to do the local women and in which pornographic manner, would be inconsequential.
But these drawings are neither random vulgarities nor inconsequential. They are a foretelling, a foreshadowing of the terrible end of the UN peacekeeping mission. A moral bankruptcy.

To be continued…

This thread is but a ploy to get you to share the next chapter of your book.

Shéhérazade's husband in 1001 Nights didn't have to work as hard as I do to get from one chapter to the next...

I could go on with examples but I think you get the point. When I put all this into perspective, I can not conclude anything else except that break up of Yugoslavia and reducing influence and power of Serbia was a goal of American foreign policy throughout those years. Instead of a single, unified state now we have 6 statelets (7 if you count Kosovo) reduced to economic dependency and Nato soldiers and bases throughout the territory of former Yugoslavia.

I would say that you are reversing cause and effect. There was no Western / American masterplan to split Yugoslavia. To put it unfriendly: Yugoslavia was not considered important enough for that. Diminishing the might of Serbia was not a political goal of the US. The NATO and UN bases are the result of a wish to protect and stabilise former Yugoslavia, not the end result of premiditated master plan for control. It is lingering Serbian nationalistic propaganda, reinforced by Western decisions later during the wars, when the Serbians took the brunt of Western policies based on Western annoyance and frustration.

There was little foreign agitation pre-break-up. But there were genocides, etnic cleansings and rampant nationalism thoughout former Yugoslavia. In response to this, foreign interventions took place. Some unfortunate, some unfair, and some long overdue.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Nevertheless, the complete disrespect the graffiti shows for the people the makers were supposed to protect is shocking. And, such is my convinction, quite telling. And not irrelevant to the choices that were made eventually. Who would risk life and limbs over a few smelly Bosnian beasts? A racist graffiti 'joke' over smelly men and hairy women is only made when people will laugh at it, when the maker knows that people will 'get it'. The army leadership either failed in maintaining necessary standards for Peacekeeping mission - that is, at the very least respect the people you are protecting - or shared to some extent the racism and disrespect for the locals. There is more to these drawings then coarsity. Graffiti that relates in intimate detail how bored soldiers, deprived of female companionship, are going to do the local women and in which pornographic manner, would be inconsequential.
But these drawings are neither random vulgarities nor inconsequential. They are a foretelling, a foreshadowing of the terrible end of the UN peacekeeping mission. A moral bankruptcy.

Well, you and I are in agreement as to the role of leadership on this. ANYTHING that dehumanizes the group you are trying to protect is likely to be counterproductive to a protection mission. If US troops have such sentiments on peace-keeping missions, I suspect our leadership cadre would be a bit more assiduous in showing that -- officially at least -- such attitudes will not be countenanced. It's simply not professional. Dutch leadership should have done that much, at least, or opted out of the mission.

[Fragony]

One racist grifitti. What you see there is a menu, and some completely random stuff, the type of things you see in public toilets. I have no idea what gives this blogger the idea that there was acces to porn (and if so so what), nothing on these pictures suggest that.

[Husar]

Well, you and I are in agreement as to the role of leadership on this. ANYTHING that dehumanizes the group you are trying to protect is likely to be counterproductive to a protection mission. If US troops have such sentiments on peace-keeping missions, I suspect our leadership cadre would be a bit more assiduous in showing that -- officially at least -- such attitudes will not be countenanced. It's simply not professional. Dutch leadership should have done that much, at least, or opted out of the mission.

I completely agree, such things should not be tolerated at all, I'd even say the leadership should make some soldiers remove that from the walls.

[Fragony]

I completely agree, such things should not be tolerated at all, I'd even say the leadership should make some soldiers remove that from the walls.

first picture, that would be a menu, and unlike the bloggers claim porn isn't served.
second picture, eh nothing at all?
third, not nice but seen worse on the doors of the restroom at my university.
Fourth, you can read, it's from a movie.
5th, what's the bloody problem???
6th, same
7th, not nice, but again common geez.
8th, 9th, 10th, ehhh, am I missing something significant?
11th, a poem about growing up.
2 more wth is wrong with this.
After that a timetable. I guess the blogger wants me to say schedule.
After that, what are really talking about? XXX PICTURES it says sex-bar omg.
And then finally the doomsday-picture that started it all.

[Alexanderofmacedon]

But how much you did to encourage it...

Right. I think it boils down to how much interference would help the U.S. Usually how things go, though.