The Curia

[navarro951]

I do agree that Massilia should be taken, in fact along with Patavium they are at the top of our military objectives. However, how do you propose we take Mediolanium or ally with it? Those barbarians there may not even honor the truce we have now and you think they will accept us as friends? No civilized Roman will ever call themselves a friend of barbarian scum!

[/Bean\]

We send our legions and crush them. We install a puppet government, heavy taxes and levy the lands' sons to serve in our armies, bringing them up as Romans. I am well aware that these tribes below the Alps harbour alliances and friendships with those past it. However, I fear not incursions or threats on invasions from these Gauls. They are tied up with civil war within their own country, and if they do find the men to spare to cross the Alps, we can easily have a legion alongside native armies stationed in the north to deal with such puny attempts. We can also provide aid to their enemies in their country, eithier forcefully, diplomatically or monetarily, in order to keep their attention elsewhere.

[Warluster]

If the Dictator, or his heir, make a decision, we have no choice but to follow it. If Senator Blasio, as heir to the Dictatorship, thinks we should take Sicily, then we shall! You speak of securing our homelands? What of Taras? That was not part of our lands!? The lands north of Roma, they were Celtic!

Our economy struggles, and by launching a offensive into Gaul will we will waste money and lives. Carthrage is obviously imperialistic as has been pointed out; Sicily is not their lands, but ours! What of Sardinia? That is under their iron grasp and people need liberation!

Senator Blasio I will happily support and second any Edict you propose concerning the war against Carthrage. We need a boost in our economy, and the island of Sicily is easily defendable, unlike Massilia northwards.

[Mjolnir]

If the Dictator, or his heir, make a decision, we have no choice but to follow it.

Perhaps you need a lesson on the meaning of the word "Republic"?

[SwissBarbar]

Yes, my cousin's right. What do we have the senate for, when the dictator allone could decide what to do?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: do not confuse roman dictatorship with the modern meaning of Dictator. Dictator was a political office. Actually it was limited to six months! (Only exceptions: Caesar and Sulla)

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

A smug smile emerged on Tiberius' face. His agitation amongst the senatores had served its purpose. Peace woulf be attained with the Hellenes, bringing their gold, culture, and greatest minds to Roma. His tutelage had paid off. And what of the barbaroi to the north? They would be conquered sooner or later, there were men a-plenty to see to that; but Carthago was already established. They themselves had men a-plenty eyeing the fertile lands of Italia. Yes, it was time for war with Carthago and Sicilia was to be the staging ground. Legatus' Cotta's name had been besmirched by his own words. It would take little maintenance to continue to turn ears away from his lips. Already the Dictator was declaring that the legions should head south. Should things go well, all would know of the wisdom of Tiberius Claudius Marcellus. And if they went poorly, well, the Dictator would take the fall, as he decreed it should be so.

[navarro951]

Thank you Marcvs Marcellvs, but indeed I must agree that the Republic is what is most important. But above all, you have made great points as to what land is really "ours". And I still stand firm. I believe the war with Carthage will be easily one anyway. I do not underestimate them, but Sicilia if it is swiftly taken will be an easy diplomatic weapon to regain truce. Then when the money flows in, we can dominate both of these warring barbarian countries who cant even keep their own country intact.

[Il_Duce]

Legatus Claudius Nero had finally arrived back in Rome the fortnight before this. He had spent the day washing, relaxing, and getting caught up on what he missed in Curia. His assistant and scribe had spent the season in the senate as Nero was off conquering land in the north under the Honorable Legatus Cotta. For he had traveled back to the eternal city for the advent of the Congressional Council. He had sat with open ears and open mind for much of the day, until he could bare no more to stay quiet.

Tiberius Claudius Marcellus! My my my, have we so quickly forgotten our place in this here Curia? You tongue talks like a Legatus, yet your title carries not such a rank. I believe you are a very smart man, but do know who you insult and who you do not. I will not stand by as my close friend and commander is insulted by such outrageous mockery. I should come over there and put you in place if we were not in a place with so many decent individuals. I will keep an eye on you, surely.

Excuse my outburst dear Senatores, but I have yet another topic to rant about.

This talk of simply 'stranding' our dear Legions in the north in favor of a grand conquest of Carthage has left me speechless until now. Do we forget that these are the Romans who were the original defenders of our homeland, who so courageously fought the Barbarian giants back from whence they came and established but two entire provincae which will undoubtedly serve as a barrier between the Celtic horde. We have but a meager navy and yet we have proposed a invasion of flotilla to head on a Hellenic power? And what happens when we take the island of Sicily? What will happen with the Carthagos come to claim their lost territory? I do not doubt the might of our soldiers, but I'm afraid one legion is not enough to fight off an entire Empire. If we establish our dominance in the north we will be able to do as we wish... but until then we can not wander away from such an imminent threat.

I gladly support edict 3.1, but of the others I can not.

[navarro951]

I think that establishing a navy would not be necessary. Aside from that though, something must happen and happen soon. If the Epirotes don't return from the north, the Gallic barbarians will as we expand toward them. If we allow Carthage to grow more powerful, when the time does come to face them, they will of amassed forces we will not be able to contend with. Simply put, this senate must come to an agreement on the future of our expansion and safety. Will we finish off the Epeiros? Invade Sicilia? Or march north against the barbarians? What I am saying is that we cannot stand back and watch as enemies surround us and friends become stronger then us.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

"Legatus Nero, we praise the gods for your safe return. As for your baseless accusations that I have insulted anyone, I will let the written record speak for me. And while I respect the rank attained by you and others, I speak as a free Roman, appointed to represent the interests of the people of Tarentum within the greater Res Publica. I will not sacrifice what truth need be told for the sake of political correctness. If that is a flaw in your eyes, then so be it.

"Rest assured, noble commander that no one here speaks of abandoning our legions or the men who have sacrificed so much to the cold north. In fact, I had proposed when Consul Asina was slain that the very legions you claim we plot to "abandon" should be celebrated with a Triumphus here in Roma. Indeed, we are discussing them having a rest to guard our borders, to further pacify and romanize the lands they have just liberated. Surely you would not begrudge them a respite from slaugther? Continue training them, they will again be needed one day."

[Il_Duce]

Ahh yes Tribunus, and will you be the one who will apologize to the Celts for intruding upon their land? They will strike at us again, very soon. And they will not be very happy.

[everyone]

Cicero returns to the Curia, and after a lengthy conversation with his assistant, he turns to address the senatores.

Apologies for my rather lengthy absence, for I had to refer to some records in the Senatorial library, to observe where would be a sound target to strike; and from my judgement, I have been convinced that though Mediolanum and Patavium is an obvious target by consensus among my fellow senatores, would it not be more wise if we just halt our efforts there once the Cisalpine frontier is secured? I doubt those celts would find it a challenge to re-establish their presence in Cisalpine Gaul once we rid the region of them.

Then, I suppose the main challenge is to destroy the massive horde near Mediolanum, but as our first great victory, the one by Consul Asina over the Epirotes, shows, our armies are more suited to fight in the field even against superior forces; therefore if we adopt a similar strategy as how we did to take Taras, the Insurbe would be the next on the list of peoples who have subjugated to Rome.

Afterwards, we should then prepare an invasion of Sicilia; as past reports have shown that the garrisons and armies of the various nations in Sicilia are not that sizable, a Legion, well supplied, could take it within a year or two, if wisely led. This may lead to inevitable war with the Poeni, who we may regard as our trading partners and 'allies'; but with the takeover of Sicilia, we could have more Denarii flowing into our coffers as it has been said that the Goddess Ceres resides on Sicilia, making its land very fertile and productive; and therefore could field more armies, and perhaps a sizable navy, to challenge Punic dominance.

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands, nodding.

Senators, I agree with what is being said here. Along with Patavium and Mediolanium, I do stress we should also ally ourselves with the city of Massilia to protect the routes to the west. We can use the northern allies to protect our borders, while we ourselves turn southward. I know how precious and resourceful the island of Sicily is, and how rich it will make our republic.

However, I will not have blood on my hands. I refuse to accept that Rome will simply throw away treaties of alliance and friendship without provocoraton. Carthage, although powerful and potentially dangerous in the furute, are still allied to us.

[Mooks]

Cotta stands, nodding.

Senators, I agree with what is being said here. Along with Patavium and Mediolanium, I do stress we should also ally ourselves with the city of Massilia to protect the routes to the west. We can use the northern allies to protect our borders, while we ourselves turn southward. I know how precious and resourceful the island of Sicily is, and how rich it will make our republic.

However, I will not have blood on my hands. I refuse to accept that Rome will simply throw away treaties of alliance and friendship without provocoraton. Carthage, although powerful and potentially dangerous in the furute, are still allied to us.

Allied to us? More like friendly trading partners. Carthrage is only not raiding us because they make money at our ports. They eye us and we eye them.

Also, you make a poor general if your unwilling to take to combat yourself. Maybe you should resign as a general and give the command of the legions to less cowardly men?

I propose a small force comprising of one senator and 1-2 units of hastati and maybe a single unit of principe go to sardinia or corisica to liberate it from Carthaginian control, once war on the bigger island of Sicily commences. The islands are as much Roman as Poeni, being neither.My patrons who number a few merchants and a greek report that the islands are lightly defended and their people not even participating in the defence of the main settlements.The senator commanding the small force, not big enough to be considered a legion, should be brave, know his way on a boat and around a countryside, and be willing to give his life if a unexpected counterattack does happen or the assault goes awry. I volunteer myself.

[Potocello]

Having been absent for a few days, Servivs Longvs talks to his assistant who is informing him of what is going on in the Curia. The assistant finishes, and Servivs stands to address the senators.

"Ave senators, please excuse my absense, issues in my home have kept my from the Curia. Now to the issues at hand, i must agree with Legatvs Cotta. Why should we turn on our Carthaginian trading partners? Both nations are gaining profit from this agreement, there is no need to violate it with a pointless war. A war which will cost us large sums of money, time we do not have, and a war which will put us in a position where we are fighting a two front war. Do not forget the barbarians in the north, my friends, they are still lusting for our blood. Decimus Scipio, i am afraid if we fail in the south, volunteering yourself would just be another waste of Romani life.

Instead of mobilizing troops to the south to mass an unprovoked attack on Carthage, let's send reinforcements to the north where the real threats lay."

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands, a look of disbelief on his face

Who are you to call me a coward? I have fought in the front lines in every campaign our republic has taken in the last 8 years! I pulled Consul Asina's body away from the surrounding enemy myself! How dare you think you can call me a coward within this hall! I must admire your bravery, sir, but I also have to scorn you for your stupidity.

I would also like to point out that 'I do not wish to have blood on my hands' is a figure of speech. It means I do not want to have any part is stabbing our allies, for that IS what they are, no matter how you view them, in the back.

Oh, and how very noble of you, Senator, to volunteer yourself and these soldiers of Rome to transport yourself across the sea to the islands in the west. Rome must be so proud to have brave generals like you in her armoury. We do not have the resources to attack north and south at the same time, let alone a strike across to Corsica and Sardinia. I see absolutely no sense in what you have said.

[navarro951]

"This Congressional Session is now closed. All legislation presentation has ended and the floor is now open for routine discussion. 48 hours will be allotted for voting!"

[everyone]

Cicero prepares himself

"Why should Massilia be taken? Though it may serve as a port where we may possibly trade with those Gauls, it may also serve to provoke them into attacking the city and bringing war between our peoples.

When we take Mediolanum, no doubt it would severely weaken our foes, therefore some would use that as an excuse to continue with the takeover of the rest of Gaul. However I would object to that. When we take Gaul, do we not have to impose our proper ways of life onto their Barbaric lifestyles? how about the infrastructure there? we would have to build them from scratch, the roads, defences, markets and so on. how about maintaining the garrisons? The Germanic tribes to the East of Gaul would be constantly eyeing that region, perhaps one day our legions may have to face those Germanic hordes, which from what I heard from merchants, are more ferocious than the Celts we are used to facing.

However, if we were to take Sicilia; the peoples there already have notions of a proper civilised lifestyle, they have walls, roads, ports, markets, infrastructure already built. Which landmass is closer to Sicilia, Italia or Africa? and from that, who would have an advantage in reinforcing that island?

Let us now compare our foes: Gauls, and if Sicilia were taken: the Poeni.
the Gaulish warriors fight with zeal, they march to where their enemies are; the Punic soldiers fight because the city of Carthage covers them with gold, they march where their general throws the coin. By taking Sicilia, we deprive the Poeni of resources for which to pay their mercenaries.

Anyway, those Poeni are becoming less and less like our Allies each day: Punic Soldiers were seen near the straits of Messena, and for a season threatening the city itself, their fleets sail close to our shores, perhaps threatening a naval blockade, or threatening our merchants; who carry goods to far of places in exchange for gold to fill our coffers."

taking a breath, Cicero seems triumphant, yet unconfident

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands.

I think you misunderstand the notion of allying with the Massilians. We do not want war with them, nor do we wish to take the city and her lands for ourselves. Only an alliance so that we may protect each other in times of need.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

OOC: This requires obviously attacking and defeating the city, and installing a type 4 government. That makes it an allied city, and we make a regional army to serve as the Massilian army. The attack can be auto resolved and off the books, so it doesnt look like an attack. It's just a good way to ally a player with a free city.

I would also like to personally thank all those who have voted against the war on Sicily. The argument has been going on for many weeks now, so I won't continue it now. But we are not ready for a war with Carthage yet. This is not the time to discuss this matter.

[Mooks]

Cotta stands, a look of disbelief on his face

Who are you to call me a coward? I have fought in the front lines in every campaign our republic has taken in the last 8 years! I pulled Consul Asina's body away from the surrounding enemy myself! How dare you think you can call me a coward within this hall! I must admire your bravery, sir, but I also have to scorn you for your stupidity.

I would also like to point out that 'I do not wish to have blood on my hands' is a figure of speech. It means I do not want to have any part is stabbing our allies, for that IS what they are, no matter how you view them, in the back.

Oh, and how very noble of you, Senator, to volunteer yourself and these soldiers of Rome to transport yourself across the sea to the islands in the west. Rome must be so proud to have brave generals like you in her armoury. We do not have the resources to attack north and south at the same time, let alone a strike across to Corsica and Sardinia. I see absolutely no sense in what you have said.

Pulled Consul Asina's body away? Only when your own personell guards sorrounded the body, then shooed away the slaves picking up the rest of the bodies. And we all know who's payroll the guards are on. We also all know whos payroll depends on the Carthaginians are on also *Turns his head towards Cotta".

And when I volunteered my service to Rome for the capture of Sardinia/Corsica I meant it with humbleness. For I consider it wrong, nay, unroman to propose a military expedition that I myself wouldnt go on. Especially a dangerous one as so.

We do have sufficent Roman forces for a small attack on sardinia or Corsica. Or are you doubting the Roman strength and saying we need 2x the number of the garrisoned Poeni troops there?

The legislation said no attack on Carthrage. So I will not debate the issue anymore. But I urge the senators to remember their loyalty to Rome, and refuse bribes from foreign nations *takes a quick glance at Cotta then focuses back on the center of the senate body once again*.

*Decimus takes a seat. When seated friendly senators around him cant but help to laugh but making sure noone hears them (they fail miserably)*

[everyone]

Cicero stands up, with his familiar morose expression

"Surely, Decimus Cornelius Scipio, you may be mistaken, Legatus Cotta is an honest man, I have campaigned with him in his time under Consul Asina, there is little doubt. But the argument on who had pulled the body of Consul Asina away from the barbarians saddens me; why would any person who respects the consul claim glory or slander another over his death? We should halt discussion on who had saved the late Consul."

his tone changes

"As for the islands of Sardinia and Corsica, I think they're merely backwater regions, their thick forests, hilly terrain is neither good for farming nor easy to maintain order; it would probably cost more denarii than it produces to maintain it, and therefore should not be attacked, for now."

"Though the legislation did not mention an attack on the city of Carthage, bringing that up is rather irrelevant, our main topic is whether should Sicilia be taken over, which I believe you agree with me that it should. If we do not wish for a prolonged war with Carthage, perhaps:

OOC: I shall revert to OOC for this part, because I think it's hard to phrase what I am about to say IC. We attack/take over Messena, then Syracuse, and also win major victories over some of their field armies on sicily, by that time, it would probably be the next Congressional session, so someone passes an edict like "make peace with the Carthaginians and annex the island of Sicily (and/or corsica and sardinia)", which could be FD'ed according to the rules.

could be done"

[Mooks]

*Deciumus makes his reply*



First, I did not mention a attack on Carthrage. I should have made that clearer. Carthrage is the embodiment of everything poeni, when I said carthrage I meant in general all the forces they control. Just like in theyre senate, when they are discussing attacks upon us. Which no doubt they are, they mention Rome not meaning literally Rome, but the embodiment of rome, our soldiers and land holdings.

I drop the proposal to Corisica/Sardinia.

[everyone]

very well, but in that case, Edict 3.3 clearly stated war with Carthage, and her holdings in Sicilia.

And you have brought up a rather interesting point, Carthage's own senate or council, or whatever name they might call themselves may also be discussing attacks on our lands this moment; we must be decisive, deliberations and arguments here only delay time, allowing the enemy to strike quick and leave our forces crippled.

[Mooks]

very well, but in that case, Edict 3.3 clearly stated war with Carthage, and her holdings in Sicilia.

And you have brought up a rather interesting point, Carthage's own senate or council, or whatever name they might call themselves may also be discussing attacks on our lands this moment; we must be decisive, deliberations and arguments here only delay time, allowing the enemy to strike quick and leave our forces crippled.

Deliberations and arguements are the cornerstone of any republic. We must never censor our words, for we will become no better then the Estruscans. While I may disagree with Cotta, his arguemensts are just as valid as mine, even if it is inspired possibly by outsiders.

[/Bean\]

Cotta stands again.

Thnak you, Senators. I am not really sure what basis these allegations against me have, but never would I consider or have considered taking money from a foreign power to protect their interests. I am an honest Roman and a believer in her power. I am not sure why I can be accused of being on Carthage's payroll.

And also, there were numerious witnesses that relayed to the Dictator and the Senate of how I personally waded into the fight to claim Asina's body; not in any attempt to cement my own glory or to further my career, but because I could not stand by and simply watch my great commander and comrade taken down. In case you have forgotten, I was awarded the Corona Civica for my actions-a truely esteemed award I had no wish for at the time of the assault.
I feel it was necessary to defend myself against these accusations, and hope this need go no further.

[navarro951]

"Decimus Cornelius Scipio!..."Heres Blasio speaks..."I was at that horrific battle, and I awarded Legatus Cotta his Corona Civica personally! You mind your tongue when you speak to a young man I would bid my life on. At the moment, he may be the most honored man in this curia, aside from our honored dictator who has striven to expand this republic. Legatus Cotta let no man tell you of your valor in that siege. Consul Asina gave his life in taking of another, and Legatus Cotta risked his life in saving of a good friend. And I declare it here and now...no man will ever speak once more of rumor and nonsense of Legatus Cotta's actions, for we who stood there on that bloody day know the truth!"

"Yes...let no more be heard of this matter"

[/Bean\]

Cotta rises again, a smile on his face

I thank Heres Blasio for his honesty, loyalty and justice. Let no one doubt his word in Rome.

[navarro951]

Heres Blasio nods...he knows no more words are needed on that issue

"Let us drift from any more bickering, their are matters at hand. I wished to give leadership of Legio III to Legatus Servivs Longvs(OOC:Potocello), as he is next in line for a command post, but he has not yet excepted the offer so we must deal with this soon."

[/Bean\]

I will depart for the Campvs Martivs to relay this information to the masses, sir.

Cotta rises and walks briskly from the Curia.

[everyone]

Cicero abruptly rises

"I had just remembered that nobody has been assigned or elected to serve as consuls this term. Heres, who are to take up the positions?"