The Curia

[The Celtic Viking]

"Tiberivs, Legatvs Cotta has no blame in this. I fully take the blame for allowing agents to delay me and my army, so though your critique is just, it should be aimed at me, not him: and I take it, for I know I deserve it. My fullest apology to Blasio, and the whole Senate, for failing to stop this misfortune. Rest assured though that this problem has been taken care of: the spies have all been cought, and they were prudently punished for their crimes.

However, I am quite confused and disgusted by the rest of your speech. I am not against an invasion of Greece: in fact, I think I have made it quite clear here that I for a very long time have wanted one! While I accept blame for that which I am responsible of, I will not have you badmouth me for something I do not stand for! Your rhetoric is shameful, and far below that which should be the standard in these halls. Juno's cunt! Have you no honour? Show some respect! Your actions here is a disgrace for this great Senate you so unworthily call yourself a part of!" As he said that, a lot of clamour began, and loud agreements was heard from many a senator.

[navarro951]

"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.

On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.

If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."

[Potocello]

"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.

On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.

If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."

"Tell me dictator what was just about attacking Sicilia. We would betray a very strong relationship with Carthage that need not have been broken.

You talk about the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. Greece will give us the same jewels PLUS the wealth and culture of the east.

It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. How do you not see it?"

Servivs sits, adrenaline pumping from this poke at the Dictator

[Mooks]

You fail to note, dicatator, that Greece wont be nearly as fortified as Sicily. The City of Syracuse and the Mammertimes are not easy enemies, they have been fighting eachother for years and unlike Greece, have not a reduced military. They will stay behind their walls also. The Poeni also have a very strong navy, and the war with them will take years! (29 years in fact OOC)

You speak of Rome's maidens and children. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you judge so blindly.

[navarro951]

"Just? How about the Carthaginians harassing Messana. Their forces constantly scouting Rhegion for starters. When has Greece ever imposed their forces near our border. When has Makedonia treated us as a foe. Carthage's alliance with us is as strong as an ant is to my foot. You know full well when that alliance was made it was made on rocky terms that stand unfirm today."

[navarro951]

"I think of our women and children, so if husbands, sons, and brothers must die...they die for at leas one reason that carries truth. Greece is no enemy, cept the Epirotes, they are just a divided people whom you all have your money grubbing hands after."

[Mooks]

"I think of our women and children, so if husbands, sons, and brothers must die...they die for at leas one reason that carries truth. Greece is no enemy, cept the Epirotes, they are just a divided people whom you all have your money grubbing hands after."

Carthrage is no enemy! The many navies it would take even to reach the mainland of Carthrage is unconceivable compared to Greece! My fellow tribunes and me ask for 1 legio, and yet you stand before us today moaning about the orphans and maidens, sentiments on my heart also, when you dont understand that there would be thousands more if we went through on the attack on Sicily!

Perhaps you do understand, perhaps you are bitter about your failed edict.

*Scipio finishes the last sentence quietly, the other senators strained to hear it if they did at all*

[The Celtic Viking]

"Thank you for your forgiveness and understanding, Blasio, but I must agree with Servivs. Carthage are our allies, and we have agreements with them. It would be disgraceful of us to just throw that to the wind and break it. There is thus no hypocrisy in being against violating agreements and going to war against the allies we have and then supporting a continued war against an enemy. Yes, an enemy I say, for where I disagree with those wanting to take Sparta, is that I want to pursue Pyrrhos and take his holdings there instead. Surely you can appreciate my point without giving me names I do not deserve?"

[navarro951]

"If it is war you want with Phyrros, that I will fully allow. If it weren't for my respect for Dentatvs while his health was failing, I would of proposed a full-scale invasion last year. But whats done is done. I have put my plan for Carthage down, I will not support attacking the Makedonians or Koinon, but I will march with any man to slit the throat of Phyrros."

[Mooks]

"If it is war you want with Phyrros, that I will fully allow. If it weren't for my respect for Dentatvs while his health was failing, I would of proposed a full-scale invasion last year. But whats done is done. I have put my plan for Carthage down, I will not support attacking the Makedonians or Koinon, but I will march with any man to slit the throat of Phyrros."

And where should we attack first in Epira? The north end or the south end? The middle maybe? The Epirotes will raise a vicious guerrila war against us. The Dalmatian coast is covered in pirates that are already good at this. They shall recall their armies from abroad and harass any city Rome captures. Our armies will have to go back and forth relieving seiges. And then what after we conquer Epira? We would have to leave a substantial garrison their to fend off any Makedonian attacks, barbarian raids, bandits on the roads.

Your plan is a shortsighted one bent on revenge. It would be costly too, the illyrian coast is not rich.

[SwissBarbar]

Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted

It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. [/I]

Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!

We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.

[Mooks]

Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted



Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!

We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.

It is my fault that we have not made it CLEAR that we do not intend to take all of Greece. I am merely waiting for the scribes to finish writing the official proposed edict so I can hand it personally to every senator here.

(OOC we are getting the nuts and bolts on it and it should be done shortly. Please Potocello answer your forum msgs)

[SwissBarbar]

Since the second legion soon reaches its target, I have to go now. My representative shall continue for me.



(OOC: since every turn has 3 months, he will be there in time ;-) )

[Mooks]

Since the second legion soon reaches its target, I have to go now. My representative shall continue for me.



(OOC: since every turn has 3 months, he will be there in time ;-) )

May lady fortuna look down upon you.

*Gives a roman salute*

[Potocello]

Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted



Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!

We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.

"Avlvs have you even been listening to what has been said here?! The Greeks are WEAK! They are locked in civil war with each other, they are too preoccupied with fighting each other that they will not have the resources to start a war with us. I require only one Legio because that is all that is needed to beat these weakened people.

And how dare you say that i am not worthy of my rank, tribvnvs . Have you experienced as much as i have? Have you felt the hot blood of your foe spirt onto your face? Have you watched your own commander slain at the hands of naked, crazed maniacs?! When you are a Legatvs you may come back and make judgments, but until then hold your tongue where rank is concerned!"

[SwissBarbar]

"Avlvs have you even been listening to what has been said here?! The Greeks are WEAK! They are locked in civil war with each other, they are too preoccupied with fighting each other that they will not have the resources to start a war with us. I require only one Legio because that is all that is needed to beat these weakened people.

And how dare you say that i am not worthy of my rank, tribvnvs . Have you experienced as much as i have? Have you felt the hot blood of your foe spirt onto your face? Have you watched your own commander slain at the hands of naked, crazed maniacs?! When you are a Legatvs you may come back and make judgments, but until then hold your tongue where rank is concerned!"

Avlvs already was in front of the door, when the Legatvs spat this words towards him. He answerd sharply

Have you been ever to Greece? They fight the Makedonians, yes? Do you REALLY think the Makedonians or the Epeirotes will tolerate Roman presence in Greece? Do you? I tell you what:

THEY WOULD RATHER THROW THEIR OWN BALLS TOWARDS OUR CITYWALLS UNTIL THEY'RE SMASHED, THAN LET US HAVE ONE SINGLE INCH OF THE LAND THEY REGARD AS THEIR OWN.

The Makedonians are in war with the Koinon Hellenon, because they want their land, so they'll never leave it to us just like that. We only would unify them with the Epeirotes. If you were the great tactican and warrior you say, you would see that. Yes, I dare question your intentions, Legatvs. I say you don't seek the best for rome, but only a chance to distinguish yourself. You better profile yourself by cleaning the latrines of my family's villa, instead of sending Roman brothers to unnecessary death! Don't YOU underestimate MY skills, for warfare and honour are in my family's blood. What is in your blood? The skill to get honourable men to lose their rag, maybe. You better watch, that it's not YOUR balls one day that are smashed into our City walls.



After this very sharp speech, he listened to the proposal of Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio and comments it calmly.

Very well, Decimvs. Congratulations. Thats how a proposal should be built, even if it is a bad one. This is what I think about these points.

1)Send Legio III to southern Greece, below the Polis of Athens, with ships acquired from the merchant class. Legio III will land at a appropriate spot and will acquire the city's of Greece it see's fit, and if possible have the Greeks attack us when we are strategically positioned on a hill.

- Not Legio III is to be sent, but NEW Legions or at least Legio III without its current commander Legatvs Longvs, to prove, that its not Legatvs Longvs liability to distinguish himself, that makes him propose this. Important: Minimum TWO Legions

2)Legio III requests extra troops for garrison. Levys or skirmishers will suffice. If
Rome's treasury can not afford it at the time then disregard point 2.

- Agree with the extra tropps

3)When legio III gains control of a greek polis, it will immeditely stabilize it. Then proceed to pick a prominent citizen that is friendly to Rome out of its population. Immediate reopening of trade with Rome (OOC a client state). Taxes will be set as see's fit by the tribunes or by special command of the consul or dicatator. Levy troops will be raised as soon as possible for garrison duty to free up legionnaires.

- And while you are raising Levys the Macedonians, Epeirotes and Hellenons will send their heavy Phalangites and chop them into fish bait. I say we take Sparte, then Korinthos and then Athenai. So we have our backs free from enemies as we advance, and can defend the two straitened passages into our new lands. Possible, for we will have TWO legions there.

4)All spoils will be sent back to Rome immediately. Estimated amounts are in the thousands of talents. All cash made by the sell of slaves will be the general's as per tradition (OOC historically accurate, the general got the money made from slaves). Majority of slaves will be sold in the slave markets of Taras or to the east.

- They are, if we take all of their cities, yes. If we stick to your plan, then estimated amounts are in the thousands of Roman bodies.

5)Legio III is willing to wait until the capture of northern celtic settlements until the official order to march is given.

- And there in the north it shall stay, and defend our northern border against the Barbarians, for Legatvs Longvs is SUCH a GREAT fighter and is very experienced in fighting those Barbarians, right?

6) If this edict is passed. Legio 3 will proceed to forts outside of Taras to await eventual transportation to the greek mainland.

- You better prepare for cold winters in the north.


He turned to the senators

Senatores! I agree, we go to greece. But not in a suicide operation. Think about my words and make yourself clear, whats at stake here. Don't send our fellow Roman brothers into death, just to satisfy ONE mans greed!

With that he went out the door and rode to his Legion, hoping, that the other senatores were no fools and would see how unnecessarily dangerous this proposal was.



(OOC: Please note, that our Roman legions are not yet those tough chaps as they were in Caesars army 200 years later. They lost extremely many men against the Epeirotes, and though they won at the end, they respected Greek phalanx formation. And actually they did not know, that the AI will be stupid, and not unify against invaders ;-) )



.

[Potocello]

Avlvs already was in front of the door, when the Legatvs spat this words towards him. He answerd sharply

Have you been ever to Greece? They fight the Makedonians, yes? Do you REALLY think the Makedonians or the Epeirotes will tolerate Roman presence in Greece? Do you? I tell you what:

THEY WOULD RATHER THROW THEIR OWN BALLS TOWARDS OUR CITYWALLS UNTIL THEY'RE SMASHED, THAN LET US HAVE ONE SINGLE INCH OF THE LAND THEY REGARD AS THEIR OWN.

The Makedonians are in war with the Koinon Hellenon, because they want their land, so they'll never leave it to us just like that. We only would unify them with the Epeirotes. If you were the great tactican and warrior you say, you would see that. Yes, I dare question your intentions, Legatvs. I say you don't seek the best for rome, but only a chance to distinguish yourself. You better profile yourself by cleaning the latrines of my family's villa, instead of sending Roman brothers to unnecessary death! Don't YOU underestimate MY skills, for warfare and honour are in my family's blood. What is in your blood? The skill to get honourable men to lose their rag, maybe. You better watch, that it's not YOUR balls one day that are smashed into our City walls.



After this very sharp speech, he listened to the proposal of Decimvs Cornelivs Scipio and comments it calmly.

Very well, Decimvs. Congratulations. Thats how a proposal should be built, even if it is a bad one. This is what I think about these points.

1)Send Legio III to southern Greece, below the Polis of Athens, with ships acquired from the merchant class. Legio III will land at a appropriate spot and will acquire the city's of Greece it see's fit, and if possible have the Greeks attack us when we are strategically positioned on a hill.

- Not Legio III is to be sent, but NEW Legions or at least Legio III without its current commander Legatvs Longvs, to prove, that its not Legatvs Longvs liability to distinguish himself, that makes him propose this. Important: Minimum TWO Legions

2)Legio III requests extra troops for garrison. Levys or skirmishers will suffice. If
Rome's treasury can not afford it at the time then disregard point 2.

- Agree with the extra tropps

3)When legio III gains control of a greek polis, it will immeditely stabilize it. Then proceed to pick a prominent citizen that is friendly to Rome out of its population. Immediate reopening of trade with Rome (OOC a client state). Taxes will be set as see's fit by the tribunes or by special command of the consul or dicatator. Levy troops will be raised as soon as possible for garrison duty to free up legionnaires.

- And while you are raising Levys the Macedonians, Epeirotes and Hellenons will send their heavy Phalangites and chop them into fish bait. I say we take Sparte, then Korinthos and then Athenai. So we have our backs free from enemies as we advance, and can defend the two straitened passages into our new lands. Possible, for we will have TWO legions there.

4)All spoils will be sent back to Rome immediately. Estimated amounts are in the thousands of talents. All cash made by the sell of slaves will be the general's as per tradition (OOC historically accurate, the general got the money made from slaves). Majority of slaves will be sold in the slave markets of Taras or to the east.

- They are, if we take all of their cities, yes. If we stick to your plan, then estimated amounts are in the thousands of Roman bodies.

5)Legio III is willing to wait until the capture of northern celtic settlements until the official order to march is given.

- And there in the north it shall stay, and defend our northern border against the Barbarians, for Legatvs Longvs is SUCH a GREAT fighter and is very experienced in fighting those Barbarians, right?

6) If this edict is passed. Legio 3 will proceed to forts outside of Taras to await eventual transportation to the greek mainland.

- You better prepare for cold winters in the north.


He turned to the senators

Senatores! I agree, we go to greece. But not in a suicide operation. Think about my words and make yourself clear, whats at stake here. Don't send our fellow Roman brothers into death, just to satisfy ONE mans greed!

With that he went out the door and rode to his Legion, hoping, that the other senatores were no fools and would see how unnecessarily dangerous this proposal was.



(OOC: Please note, that our Roman legions are not yet those tough chaps as they were in Caesars army 200 years later. They lost extremely many men against the Epeirotes, and though they won at the end, they respected Greek phalanx formation. And actually they did not know, that the AI will be stupid, and not unify against invaders ;-) )



.

"Avlvs I find your lack of respect disgusting not worthy of even a Roman tribvnvs! You criticize my leadership and yet you have never experienced it. You speak of your FAMILY'S warfare and honor but how come i do not see yours? You vile piece of pig shit, you have not proven yourself on the battlefield for if you had, you would be able to speak to me eye to eye as a legatvs. I have lost all respect for you and i am ashamed that you are even called Roman. he mumbles under his breath so only few can hear him. Perhaps the Greeks were onto something by ostracizing people, I would surely cast my vote for this...child.

I find it despicable that us civilized Romans have sunk to such extremes as this. The order and respect of this Curia has gone right out the window. The Legio III Campania has made a simple proposition and instead of discussing it like the noble Romans we are, we have all trashed our honor with these insults. How would the rest of the world feel if they saw us in this pitiful state? We would be a Joke! I will lose faith in our political system if this is the way the Curia continues to operate."

Servivs sat down with fiery fury in his eyes. He wished he had his gladius to run this man through.