The Curia

[The Celtic Viking]

"Good senators of Rome! Listen to Avlvs words and mark them well, for they bear the hallmark of wisdom. Folly it would be to let Italian soldiers outnumber our own Romans, for they would fight us if they thought they could win. By sending them to Greece, we would only bolster the enemy's numbers!

But as for war in Greece, it has long been my opinion that we should follow Pyrrhos and kick his Molossan ass as soon as we have the chance. When Cisalpine Gaul and Massalia are secured, the time for it will be ripe. We will be able to afford enough ships for the operation by then, and we will have Legios freed up from their current mission in the north. But this can and should be debated later; lets all focus on the task at hand for now."

[Mooks]

All good points you have indeed. But you should note that I said I would not mind a pure itallic army, not that I reccomend one. And the confederation is not secure as you might think. The samnites went to Phyros side as soon as he landed troops on our shores, and they will go again if another army lands a army on our shores. The only place where they can be secure, loyal troops to Rome is in foreign lands.

If many troops die in Greece, the trading will be carried on by their sons, and the farming carried on by the slaves we send back. Numbers are not a issue.

*his tone turning more somber, he turns his focus to the senator's cousin*

Aemilus, would you support sending legio III to greece AFTER the business in the north is finished?

[SwissBarbar]

Avlvs answers

The first part of what you said is contradictory, you say they fought with Phyrros - which is true - but you still consider them loyal enough to fight for us in foreign countries. So the enemy does not even have to send diplomats to bribe them, because we send them to the enemy as a present, so he can send them back as a part of his army.

Numbers ARE an issue, because in war its not the fathers but its the sons, that die!

Apart from that: Yes. If business IS finished in southern Gaul, and the borders are secure, then I would not mind an armed holiday in Greece. But if we go there, not only with one legion. If we invade, we do it properly.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Blasio, there have been some misfortunes in Legio I's preparations for war - sabotage by spies, no doubt - which has delayed us while Legio II has marched on.* It is, however, my firm belief that they do not need our help to take Patavium. That's why I ask for permission to move west instead, and take it on me to secure Massalia instead."

*OOC: There seems to have been a misunderstanding since I in a PM asked Baen to move Legio I as well, but it would appear that he forgot about it or something. That's the real reason for Legio I's current inactivity.

[navarro951]

"Blasio, there have been some misfortunes in Legio I's preparations for war - sabotage by spies, no doubt - which has delayed us while Legio II has marched on.* It is, however, my firm belief that they do not need our help to take Patavium. That's why I ask for permission to move west instead, and take it on me to secure Massalia instead."

*OOC: There seems to have been a misunderstanding since I in a PM asked Baen to move Legio I as well, but it would appear that he forgot about it. That's the real reason for Legio I's current inactivity.

(OOC: ARRGHH ya i know i was going to move it for you as Baen may not of seen that SOT, i did. Okay well were using force_diplomacy on Massalia...so I guess you could go their as a RP thing?)

[Mooks]

*Scipio rises slowly, barely hearing Avlvs's speech.He remembers the comment he made earlier, insulting the Cornelius house. Scipio makes a note to hire the local boys to egg his villa*

The samnites want only one thing, their land back. They care nothing for foreign gold, or foreign interests. Away from our soil they are strangers and will fight just as well as our legionarres do.

On your other point: The proposal by Servus was not a invasion of the whole of Greece, such a thing would require much more then 1 legion. But merely taking southern greece. Which we firmly believe is possible. If you personally think we will need more, perhaps adding extra hastasti or skirmishers for garrison duty will be enough for you?

[The Celtic Viking]

(OOC: ARRGHH ya i know i was going to move it for you as Baen may not of seen that SOT, i did. Okay well were using force_diplomacy on Massalia...so I guess you could go their as a RP thing?)

OOC: Oh, I didn't know that. Well, yeah, we could make it RP, something like "they will become our allies, but wish us for our presence ensure their safety: taadaa", or the more mafia-stylized "ally with is or else...". Yeah. If you read this before ending the turn, please move me towards Massalia then.

[Potocello]

*Scipio rises slowly, barely hearing Avlvs's speech.He remembers the comment he made earlier, insulting the Cornelius house. Scipio makes a note to hire the local boys to egg his villa*

The samnites want only one thing, their land back. They care nothing for foreign gold, or foreign interests. Away from our soil they are strangers and will fight just as well as our legionarres do.

On your other point: The proposal by Servus was not a invasion of the whole of Greece, such a thing would require much more then 1 legion. But merely taking southern greece. Which we firmly believe is possible. If you personally think we will need more, perhaps adding extra hastasti or skirmishers for garrison duty will be enough for you?

"What Scipio says here is true. I think that the objectives in going to Greece were severely
misunderstood. The plan would be to sail to the Peloponnese, land, and take Sparte. There, we would
establish friendlier and more profitable shipping routes to Roma. I do not want to go to Greece for
greater personal glory or for conquest, i want to ensure better shipping and more wealth is reaching
Roma.

I would also not mind waiting to go to Sparte until things are finished in the north but i will not be in
approval for continued conquest in the north, when Greece could be so beneficial now."

[SwissBarbar]

Unlike Scipio, Avlvs very carefully listened to what his opponent said, and answers.

"Well, in my opinion a Legatvs should make an official proposal here in the curia, when it is the time to think about the Geeks. He should define exactly what his targets are, what regions and cities he intends to take and of course what Legions he wants to take with him, how strong these legions are, what garrison troops are needed, how many soldiers from our allies he intends to recruit and by what time he will have fulfilled the task.

Then I can say if I'm satisfied. I will not let you pin me down in this matter here, by already making a decision.

Turning to Longvs

Dear Legatvs Servivs Sempronivs Longvs, with all due respect, what you are proposing here is an invasion, and nothing else, no matter how few settlements you intend to take."

[Potocello]

Turning to Memercvs, Longus speaks.

"Call it what you must, Memercvs. But as i said before, going to Greece would be be both beneficial to Roma and Greece. We would bring wealth to Roma while also uniting Greece under Roman rule. Both nations would be able to experience the diverse cultures and riches of each of our nations."

[Mooks]

I am against incorporating Greece into the empire. Let them govern themselves for the time being, and over time even let them have their own hellen troops as guards,merely replace their heads of states, and extract a alliance. With the Might of rome guarding them the makedonians and Epirotes will no longer terrorize the Greek Polis. Of course the current tyrants will never support this, but I agree that the people will once they see the benefits. All of this will benefit Rome and Greece.

I agree with you Avlvs, I shall confide privately Longus to formulate a official proposal.

[Tiberius Claudius Marcellus]

Having listened to the countering opinions of the Greek plan, Tiberius Claudius Marcellus stands slowly and paces about the floor of the Curia while he postures, dramatically showing off the thought process he had completed last night when he retired from the chambers. When enough of the private deliberation had quieted down, he began:

"Legatus Cotta and Legio I Apulia have been sabotaged by spies? How could this have happnened within our own sphere of influence? This brings to the forefront many of the questions so many of us have had in these past few months pertaining to the readiness and effectiveness of that command. A grumbling of support broke out amongst the senatores that this indeed was an issue that must be addressed. Tiberius waved his hand asking for silence. He continued, "Be that as it may, Heres Cicero was wise to remind the hotter heads, he markedly turned to face the Aemilii cousins and even gave a brief glance to the Dictator, "that contest our planned subversion of Greece towards a more open support of Roma, that this plan was not to take effect until after Patavium and the north were secured, as voted on and approved by this council.

"This proposed idea was simply, and purely, a desire to enlarge and enrich the Res Publica with all that Hellas has to offer. If those in league with the command of Legio I and II are troubled by such selfless desires because of greed or short sightedness, and wish to continue arguments against our grandiose plan, then please, continue. Allow the record to show that you stand in the way of greatness and destiny in order to better your own stations at the expense of the Res Publica and the people you represnt.

At that statement most of the Senate erupts into arguing amongst themselves. Clearly this is a hotbed issue. Tiberius takes it in and relishes every moment of seeing this discord, this disharmony amongst the various 'leaders' who seek nothing but glory and riches for themselves. He sips from a cup of water allowing his controlled chaos to continue. From somewhere in the back a voice rings out, "And what are your motives, Greek?" Tiberius looks up suddenly, his eyes darting to the faces of each member of the Senate to see who had uttered such an offense. The faces of the men were unrevealing and no one seemed to even be looking toward the direction the voice had come from. He needed to regain control, and regain it now. He placed his cup upon the table, clasped his hands behind his back and began to walk to floor.

"Such bold words from one who would hide in the shadows. If you've not the testicular fortitude to insult me to my face, then I suggest you find a differrent line of work. I hear told there is a shortage of pig farmers in Apulia, perhaps you would find comfort amongst your own kind there?"

There was much laughter yet no one came forward as the offending senator. Tiberius would extend his network of informants to catch the insect who did this and then destroy them when the time was right. Until then, there was still the issue of persuading the Senate to accept this foray into Greece.

"Noble Senatores, let us not be distracted by such childish outbursts, surely spurred on by those who contest this plan. As you all know, I am of the Gens Claudia, nobile Romans all. Though my particular branch of the family tree had resided in Tarentum for the past three generations there is no Greek blood in my veins. Though I am accustomed to and familiar with the culture, language, arts, and politics of Hellas, I and my family are Latins to the core. Any statement to the contrary is a lie. A filthy, unsupported lie. And if anyone here suggests or openly states that I or my family are of anything but Romani lineage, then they and their house shall answer to me. I expect no further deliberation on this matter.

"As my fellow Tribunus, my Legatus, and I myself have stated multiple times within this debate, this is not a conquest of Greece. The common people are of like mind that in Roma lies the future. It is simply their leadership in the various poli that need convincing. When they are toppled, the people shall rejoice and overthrow the last remnants of Greek leadership and support the Res Publica entirely. Some of this can surely be accomplished through diplomacy and diplomacy's lubrication: gold. Our Legio III Campania is simply there to assist those who would do our work for us, as well as to show the Greek peoples that Roma is sincere in its desire to have firm relations with them.

"The legion could be supported by various levies and auxilliary forces from the country side to augment our own troops, often fighting the battles themselves - a testament to their devotion to Roma and all that we embody. The fleets needed could indeed be supported by local merchants, and my family will be the first to offer ten such vessels to assist this endeavor. (ooc: use the command line to create one ship). Our first goal will be to help change the governments of the closest port towns, so that trade and resupply can be established immediately. As one who knows, the Greeks will not stand united against us. Each polis will attempt to consolidate its own holdings, and when faced with the threat of a powerful legion and the threat of rebellion of its own populace will crumble as a tower of unbaked bricks.

"Senatores, this plan cannot fail. The three commanders who have created this plan are the ones going to lead it and put their very lives on the line. There is much to gain through this course of action and little to lose. And for those who would twist my words and callously interpret them as having complete disregard of the soldiers we would lead, let me tell you that those who serve in our armies are volunteers. They seek out danger and battle purposely, and risk their lives for fortune and glory of their own volition. They know the risks but chose so accordingly. I ask you to not disregard the free-made decisions of our fellow citizens out of an unfounded hatred of those who would command them or out of a desire to obtain glory and riches for yourself. You, as their elected representatives owe them much more than that."

[SwissBarbar]

"My name is Mamercvs, Legatvs Longvs.

Tribunus Tiberius Claudius Marcellus, a nice speech you held. And i agree that Greece is rich, and that we could profit from it. But why Sparte? I don't understand, that respectable commanders like you, do not see this:

Sparte is not the richest town in Greece, but the one with the most redoubtable warriors, so our direct benefit would be minimal.

What concerns your indirect benefit, for example taking our culture there and trade..."

Avlvs almost shouted, but contained himself

"DO YOU.... do you really think, that if we took naught but Sparte - THE Sparte - the Greeks would just watch, and say: "Oh, the Romans are here, well, let's trade and make them rich." Not even the Gods could make that happen. They would gather and attack and attack again, the costs alone to defend the city would reach heaven, and we would not gain a single dirty Drachma out of Greece, but most likely even come to grief! I say, we may go to Greece if the time is right, yes! But when we're there, we have to take their land and their rich cities, like Athenai.

Fellow Senatores, we are Romans! We don't do things by half-measures!!! What say you?"

[Mooks]

If we didnt take sparta then we would be in between greek armies previosly fighting the Makedonians, and greek levys from sparta. In short, we would be sandwiched.

The official proposal is being worked at currently. All questions will be answered, all details examined, the costs ledged in the ledger, the speculations speculated, and the plans be planned.

[SwissBarbar]

Did you not listen to me AGAIN? Avlvs smiled I said take ALL of Greece, which includes Sparte.

[The Celtic Viking]

"Tiberivs, Legatvs Cotta has no blame in this. I fully take the blame for allowing agents to delay me and my army, so though your critique is just, it should be aimed at me, not him: and I take it, for I know I deserve it. My fullest apology to Blasio, and the whole Senate, for failing to stop this misfortune. Rest assured though that this problem has been taken care of: the spies have all been cought, and they were prudently punished for their crimes.

However, I am quite confused and disgusted by the rest of your speech. I am not against an invasion of Greece: in fact, I think I have made it quite clear here that I for a very long time have wanted one! While I accept blame for that which I am responsible of, I will not have you badmouth me for something I do not stand for! Your rhetoric is shameful, and far below that which should be the standard in these halls. Juno's cunt! Have you no honour? Show some respect! Your actions here is a disgrace for this great Senate you so unworthily call yourself a part of!" As he said that, a lot of clamour began, and loud agreements was heard from many a senator.

[navarro951]

"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.

On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.

If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."

[Potocello]

"Legatus Regvlvs, I understand. Men who are rats, vile rats, such as the spies you caught are an inconvenience we military men must deal with.

On this continued proposal for taking Greece, I stand firm, it cannot be allowed. So many of you who opposed my idea of invading Sicilia, now want to invade Greece. The hypocrisy of some of you makes me laugh. There was so much more to gain from Sicilia as it is closer, and the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. But no, many of you shot the edict down. And as a good leader, Dentatvs allowed a fair and balanced vote instead of overriding you younger senators.

If an invasion is what you want, I pray for the wives and children whom you leave widowed and orphaned on some unjust cause that you all wish to put into motion only for personal glory. You speak for yourselves not Rome."

"Tell me dictator what was just about attacking Sicilia. We would betray a very strong relationship with Carthage that need not have been broken.

You talk about the jewel of the Mediterranean trade routes. Greece will give us the same jewels PLUS the wealth and culture of the east.

It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. How do you not see it?"

Servivs sits, adrenaline pumping from this poke at the Dictator

[Mooks]

You fail to note, dicatator, that Greece wont be nearly as fortified as Sicily. The City of Syracuse and the Mammertimes are not easy enemies, they have been fighting eachother for years and unlike Greece, have not a reduced military. They will stay behind their walls also. The Poeni also have a very strong navy, and the war with them will take years! (29 years in fact OOC)

You speak of Rome's maidens and children. Perhaps you should look in the mirror before you judge so blindly.

[navarro951]

"Just? How about the Carthaginians harassing Messana. Their forces constantly scouting Rhegion for starters. When has Greece ever imposed their forces near our border. When has Makedonia treated us as a foe. Carthage's alliance with us is as strong as an ant is to my foot. You know full well when that alliance was made it was made on rocky terms that stand unfirm today."

[navarro951]

"I think of our women and children, so if husbands, sons, and brothers must die...they die for at leas one reason that carries truth. Greece is no enemy, cept the Epirotes, they are just a divided people whom you all have your money grubbing hands after."

[The Celtic Viking]

"Thank you for your forgiveness and understanding, Blasio, but I must agree with Servivs. Carthage are our allies, and we have agreements with them. It would be disgraceful of us to just throw that to the wind and break it. There is thus no hypocrisy in being against violating agreements and going to war against the allies we have and then supporting a continued war against an enemy. Yes, an enemy I say, for where I disagree with those wanting to take Sparta, is that I want to pursue Pyrrhos and take his holdings there instead. Surely you can appreciate my point without giving me names I do not deserve?"

[Mooks]

"I think of our women and children, so if husbands, sons, and brothers must die...they die for at leas one reason that carries truth. Greece is no enemy, cept the Epirotes, they are just a divided people whom you all have your money grubbing hands after."

Carthrage is no enemy! The many navies it would take even to reach the mainland of Carthrage is unconceivable compared to Greece! My fellow tribunes and me ask for 1 legio, and yet you stand before us today moaning about the orphans and maidens, sentiments on my heart also, when you dont understand that there would be thousands more if we went through on the attack on Sicily!

Perhaps you do understand, perhaps you are bitter about your failed edict.

*Scipio finishes the last sentence quietly, the other senators strained to hear it if they did at all*

[navarro951]

"If it is war you want with Phyrros, that I will fully allow. If it weren't for my respect for Dentatvs while his health was failing, I would of proposed a full-scale invasion last year. But whats done is done. I have put my plan for Carthage down, I will not support attacking the Makedonians or Koinon, but I will march with any man to slit the throat of Phyrros."

[SwissBarbar]

Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted

It has been made clear that sending the Legio III Campania to Greece would be extremely beneficial for Roma AND Greece. [/I]

Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!

We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.

[Mooks]

Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted



Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!

We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.

It is my fault that we have not made it CLEAR that we do not intend to take all of Greece. I am merely waiting for the scribes to finish writing the official proposed edict so I can hand it personally to every senator here.

(OOC we are getting the nuts and bolts on it and it should be done shortly. Please Potocello answer your forum msgs)

[Mooks]

"If it is war you want with Phyrros, that I will fully allow. If it weren't for my respect for Dentatvs while his health was failing, I would of proposed a full-scale invasion last year. But whats done is done. I have put my plan for Carthage down, I will not support attacking the Makedonians or Koinon, but I will march with any man to slit the throat of Phyrros."

And where should we attack first in Epira? The north end or the south end? The middle maybe? The Epirotes will raise a vicious guerrila war against us. The Dalmatian coast is covered in pirates that are already good at this. They shall recall their armies from abroad and harass any city Rome captures. Our armies will have to go back and forth relieving seiges. And then what after we conquer Epira? We would have to leave a substantial garrison their to fend off any Makedonian attacks, barbarian raids, bandits on the roads.

Your plan is a shortsighted one bent on revenge. It would be costly too, the illyrian coast is not rich.

[SwissBarbar]

Since the second legion soon reaches its target, I have to go now. My representative shall continue for me.



(OOC: since every turn has 3 months, he will be there in time ;-) )

[Mooks]

Since the second legion soon reaches its target, I have to go now. My representative shall continue for me.



(OOC: since every turn has 3 months, he will be there in time ;-) )

May lady fortuna look down upon you.

*Gives a roman salute*

[Potocello]

Avlvs leaped to his feet and shouted



Made clear? MADE CLEAR? I hoped you just understood why sending only one legion would be nothing but stupid. Your intransigence is outrageous and not worthy of a roman Legatvs!

We send far more than one legion and take all of Greece, or not only our soldiers will die for NOTHING, but also your so called "benefits" would go under compared with the costs keeping the city and defending it against the thousands of other non-spartian Greeks who will not just watch us taking their capital and do nothing.

"Avlvs have you even been listening to what has been said here?! The Greeks are WEAK! They are locked in civil war with each other, they are too preoccupied with fighting each other that they will not have the resources to start a war with us. I require only one Legio because that is all that is needed to beat these weakened people.

And how dare you say that i am not worthy of my rank, tribvnvs . Have you experienced as much as i have? Have you felt the hot blood of your foe spirt onto your face? Have you watched your own commander slain at the hands of naked, crazed maniacs?! When you are a Legatvs you may come back and make judgments, but until then hold your tongue where rank is concerned!"