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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    From Spiegel Online:

    In the Gaza Strip people are returning home -- or to the rubble that was once their home. Many are blaming Hamas for the destruction because the militants hid among civilians and attracted Israeli fire. Yet no one dares to speak out openly.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    'Who Has Won Here?'

    By Ulrike Putz in Beit Lahia, Gaza

    In the Gaza Strip people are returning home -- or to the rubble that was once their home. Many are blaming Hamas for the destruction because the militants hid among civilians and attracted Israeli fire. Yet no one dares to speak out openly.

    What is left over when a person is hit by a tank shell. Blood, tissue, bone splinters, splatters on the wall.

    And anger.

    Mohammed Sadala's rage is aimed at the man, whose remains he found in his bedroom: a Hamas fighter. He and a comrade broke into the home which had long stood empty after the Sadala family fled. The Hamas men shot at the approaching Israelis from the balcony. The soldiers fired back, killing the militants and destroying the house of the 10-strong family in the process.

    When Sadala came back to survey the scene he found his property in ruins: the younger children's bedroom was burnt out, while the living room and hallway were strewn with bullet holes and blackened by soot from the fire. In the bedroom lay the corpses: one had bled to death, the other was hit by a tank shell.

    Beside the bodies lay the assault rifle which they had used to try to stop the tanks.

    "I used to support Hamas because they fought for our country, for Palestine," says Sadala. Hamas stood for a new start, for an end of corruption, which had spread like cancer under the moderate Fatah. In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: "That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years."

    Through the hole in the wall of his house, Sadala sees a landscape in gray and brown. This is where a neighbourhood had stood, his neighbourhood. Now there is a snake of sand around the bomb crater. It is impossible to tell where the streets once stood. Family houses have turned into piles of debris. People have built refuges using cloth and rubble. They stand alongside dead donkeys and sheep, whose stomachs swell up. No one here has time to remove rotting corpses.

    The people from Beit Lahia are starting from zero again: children load wood from broken trees onto their back. Their mothers bend over fires and bake bread. Young women carry water in petrol canisters. Only the men stand around looking numb, smoking, staring blankly. Many people here, like Sandala, had placed their hopes in Hamas -- now they are gazing into nothing, ideologically as well as materially.

    Everything Is Lost Now

    And it is not just buildings that lie in rubble in the Gaza strip, it is the livelihoods of many thousands of people. In Arabic societies a home is usually everything a family possesses. Often several brothers build a house for the entire family. Living at close quarters has its advantages: when the costs of building the house are paid off, there is more money left over to feed the dozens of family members.

    Everything is lost now.

    "When Hamas came to power, they came to our aid with packages of groceries," says Abu Abed. The 60-year-old's sons, all of whom are trained hospital nurses, have been without work for years. That is true of many in the Gaza Strip. Now Abu Abed stands before the rumble of the house where he lived with four generations of his family. All that remains are the ground floor pillars. The Israeli navy had its eye on the building from the very beginning of the war. After all, its clear view of Gaza City and the sea would have provided a good base for Hamas.

    "I've changed my mind about Hamas," Abu Abed says. "I can't support any party that wages a war that destroys our lives." He is particularly pained by the fact that Hamas is still selling the cease-fire as a victory.

    "Who has won here?" he asks and points to the debris that was once his home.

    One of his neighbors weighs in: "Many people are now against Hamas but that won't change anything," he says. "Because anyone who stands up to them is killed." Since they took power Hamas has used brutal force against any dissenters in the Gaza Strip. There were news agency reports that during the war they allegedly executed suspected collaborators with Israel. The reign of terror will go on for some time, says the neighbor who doesn't want to give his name. "There will never be a rebellion against Hamas. It would be suicide."

    Others swallow their anger. Hail's house is just a few streets away and only suffered light damage. There are a few bullet holes in the living room walls and all of the window panes are broken. Hail also found out after the cease-fire that the militants had used his house as a base for their operations. The door to his house stood open and there were electric cables lying in the hallway. When Hail followed them they led to his neighbor's house which it seems Hamas had mined.

    As Hail, in his mid-30s, sat on his porch and thought about what to do a man came by: He was from Hamas and had left something in Hail's home. He let him in and the man then emerged with a bullet proof vest, a rocket launcher and an ammunitions belt. An hour later a fighter with Islamic Jihad called to the door, then disappeared onto the roof and reappeared with a box of ammunition. "The abused civilians' homes for their own purposes. That is not right," Hail says with disgust while trying to remain polite.

    In contrast to many of their neighbors the Sadala family is doing comparatively well. They have all survived and the house could theoretically still be repaired. Mohammed Sadala is of another opinion: "There is no way," he says. What happened in his bedroom cannot be covered up just by cleaning. The worst is that he now knows who died in the room. It was Bilal Haj Ali. Sadala knows this because the young mans brothers came to visit a few days ago. They wanted to see the place where Bilal became a martyr. "I did let them in but I hardly spoke a word with them," he says.

    The young men took photos of the remains of their brother with their mobile phones. "But they didn't want to clean it up," Sadala says. "I told them not to show their faces here ever again."


    Gee, I seem to remember an awful lot of people claiming that this war would lead to vastly increased recruitment for Hamas. But it seems likely there will be no such recruitment from Gaza, where people actually have to live with the actions of Hamas, and the Palestinians quoted in this article are asking the tough questions of Hamas that some anti-Israel people refuse to ask.

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  2. #2
    Horse Archer Senior Member Sarmatian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    You sum up the text as "Hamas hides behind civilians" and in the text it says that Hamas militants/fighters/whatever occupied an empty house. You remark at the end how this won't increase recruitment for Hamas because Sadala is angry at Hamas not at Israel, at yet in the same paragrapgh it says that two brothers of the dead guy came to honour their brother as martyr
    Last edited by Sarmatian; 01-25-2009 at 04:36.

  3. #3
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    CR I simply have to point out that you can't handle the truth

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    Arena Senior Member Crazed Rabbit's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sarmatian View Post
    You sum up the text as "Hamas hides behind civilians"
    No, I did not.
    and in the text it says that Hamas militants/fighters/whatever occupied an empty house.
    Which got blown apart by Israel trying to kill the fighters within. The house was destroyed, a family's home was destroyed and now they have nothing.

    You remark at the end how this won't increase recruitment for Hamas because Sadala is angry at Hamas not at Israel, at yet in the same paragrapgh it says that two brothers of the dead guy came to honour their brother as martyr
    I said any recruitment will not be of the vastly higher type predicted by several people on this site. Kindly cease your repeated misunderstandings.

    The fact that two men came to take pictures of the body of their brother and then leave it where it lay does nothing to refute that.

    Why, exactly, is this simple concept so confusing?

    CR
    Ja Mata, Tosa.

    The poorest man may in his cottage bid defiance to all the forces of the Crown. It may be frail; its roof may shake; the wind may blow through it; the storm may enter; the rain may enter; but the King of England cannot enter – all his force dares not cross the threshold of the ruined tenement! - William Pitt the Elder

  5. #5

    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Beit Lahia ?
    That was pretty solid Fatah territory wasn't it (apart from the little Islamic Jihad enclave) the only reason Hamas got a foothold there in the last election was because Fatah split its voters with the arguement between the new and old guard candidates on the list .
    So I suppose going there and finding someone who doen't like Hamas would be as hard as going to New York and finding someone that doesn't like Bush .

  6. #6
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    I don't believe either side completely, we will see the results when the next bloodshed comes around I guess, has been like that for a while now.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crazed Rabbit View Post
    From Spiegel Online:

    Gee, I seem to remember an awful lot of people claiming that this war would lead to vastly increased recruitment for Hamas. But it seems likely there will be no such recruitment from Gaza, where people actually have to live with the actions of Hamas, and the Palestinians quoted in this article are asking the tough questions of Hamas that some anti-Israel people refuse to ask.

    CR
    In the previous thread i accused the Palestinians of unmitigated stupidity in electing Hamas, that may have been unfair.

    While electing Hamas was an act of extreme stupidity, it might appear that the Gazans are emerging from their period of derangement in light of their new appreciation of what glorious benefits Hamas have brought them.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Less than 50% elected Hamas. The other option isn't exactly rosey.

    Is all of the UK stupid for voting in Labour and hence causing the current mess?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    the people who voted labour did not vote to elect a terrorist group whose principle aim was the destruction of the superpower next door, and do so by launching attacks on said superpower from the civilian homes and infrastructure of its electorate.

    that is rank stupidity.

    p.s. while i understand and approve of the conservatives losing power in 97, i do indeed hold the hardcore labour voter to a very stupid creature.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-25-2009 at 13:40.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Darkside Medic Senior Member rory_20_uk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    I thought that most often the rockets were fired from the fields.

    I agree that professing to hate the superpower next door that is chocking off power, water and food is immflamatory, but I imagine an election manifesto of "Israel is our misunderstood friend" would get few votes. There's a reasonable chance that the populace are upset about being treated the way they are.

    In the situation I don't know who I'd think would make a difference. What would you suggest?

    An enemy that wishes to die for their country is the best sort to face - you both have the same aim in mind.
    Science flies you to the moon, religion flies you into buildings.
    "If you can't trust the local kleptocrat whom you installed by force and prop up with billions of annual dollars, who can you trust?" Lemur
    If you're not a liberal when you're 25, you have no heart. If you're not a conservative by the time you're 35, you have no brain.
    The best argument against democracy is a five minute talk with the average voter. Winston Churchill

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    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by rory_20_uk View Post
    I thought that most often the rockets were fired from the fields.

    I agree that professing to hate the superpower next door that is chocking off power, water and food is immflamatory, but I imagine an election manifesto of "Israel is our misunderstood friend" would get few votes. There's a reasonable chance that the populace are upset about being treated the way they are.

    In the situation I don't know who I'd think would make a difference. What would you suggest?

    i would suggest that the previously delusional people of Gaza are finally realising what their vote bought them, along with a clear perception that they will have to live with the fact that israel lives next door and will always be the godzilla of the neighbourhood, so why keep sticking pins in his side.

    it is possible that this recent conflict has created conditions more conducive to a future peace, in that it has allowed Kadima the breathing room within israels stifling system of coalition governance to push on with a peace process, and that it may finally have cause palestinians to realise that israel isn't going to go away, whatever they do or wish.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 01-25-2009 at 13:50.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    the people who voted labour did not vote to elect a terrorist group whose principle aim was the destruction of the superpower next door, and do so by launching attacks on said superpower from the civilian homes and infrastructure of its populace.
    In fairness, I doubt the Hamas voters did that either. I think they rather voted in the guys who actually built some of that infrastructure and civilian homes, and provided food and medical care, and compensation when when injury/death occured - versus the previous lot who kept all the cash (meant to do all that social stuff) to themselves.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  13. #13
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    In fairness, I doubt the Hamas voters did that either. I think they rather voted in the guys who actually built some of that infrastructure and civilian homes, and provided food and medical care, and compensation when when injury/death occured - versus the previous lot who kept all the cash (meant to do all that social stuff) to themselves.
    In fairness, I accept what you say, however it is rank stupidity to believe your 'nation' exists in a vacuum from which its actions towards the outside world have no consequence within.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  14. #14
    Headless Senior Member Pannonian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    In fairness, I doubt the Hamas voters did that either. I think they rather voted in the guys who actually built some of that infrastructure and civilian homes, and provided food and medical care, and compensation when when injury/death occured - versus the previous lot who kept all the cash (meant to do all that social stuff) to themselves.
    Something I've been wondering, if there is an unpalatable choice between one party who are palatable foreign policy-wise, but who are abysmal domestically, and the other, who are good domestically, but who are abysmal foreign policy-wise, why doesn't the EU or US just formally take over Palestine? Declare the situation there as unfavourable to all in the region, including the Palestinians themselves, and formally take over the government and the wellbeing of the Palestinian state. Sure, it's colonialism all over again, but is it that much worse than the basket case it currently is?

  15. #15

    Default Re: Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

    not very surprising that most neo-nazi's vote for the SP

    Fragony you really are out of the loop since your old "lets beat up immigrants" days , why not visit some of those nice dutch neo-nazi websites and see how happy the scum there are that the Israelis are confronting the muslim menace .
    You will see Frag that they have the same "muslims gonna getya" line of errrrrrr......"thought" that you exhibit .



    I know Idaho and Tribesman are always going to agree with the Palestinians.
    Its not that I agree with the Palestinians Don , its just that those who are most vocal in support of Israel are usually the ones with gaping great holes in their arguements which are easier to rip apart .

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