Palestinians in Gaza blaming ... Hamas?

[Hooahguy]

That's the problem. "Death to Israel" etc is used in the ME as a standard rallying call in some circles. But it's as tired a mantra as the "Axis of Evil" tbh. The paranoia may well have saved a lot more. It may not. Who knows. Right now it's causing as many problems as it is solving.

The US has tried to wipe a few places off the map over the years - but those countries have managed to forget about it and move on. It's killed millions of Vietnamese, millions more Cambodians. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. And had a pivotal role in countless brutal proxy wars and suppressions in Africa and Central/South America. But none of those countries have become paranoid or devoted their existences to defending themselves against the next wave of US attacks.

israel was founded upon survivors of the Holocaust. if israel did let down their defenses, there wouldnt be an israel.
also, the countries which the US supposedly tried to destroy arent now threatened seriously by others and there arent millions who are chanting for its destruction, at least, AFAIK.
i dont see thousands chanting for the destruction of 'nam or cambodia in the US. but i do see thousands chanting for the destruction of israel in multiple arab countries.

why do you find a problem with us jews being hell bent on survival?

[rory_20_uk]

why do you find a problem with us jews being hell bent on survival?

Off the top of my head it would be the thousands of deaths of others, by intentional neglect and military action.

[Tribesman]

What is your purpose in making this statement, because it certainly does nothing to refute or invalidate mine.............?

It does , unless you can show that the media didn't run with 56 killed in london attack since you seem to support Thompsons line that a headline of 3 killed in west bank attack is a sign of bias .

I described my experience of unbalanced beeb reporting on israel/palestine from years of watching the TV, and provide an example which i liken as typical to that which i have experienced.

Actually you are just showing your own bias , in the same way as the people that complained that the BBC were biased on the Iraq war ...complaints from both the people who supported the warand those who oppose it each claiming the BBC was biased against them , actually its just like the people who launch complaints that the BBC is too pro-Israeli .

israel was founded upon survivors of the Holocaust.

Is that todays daily myth from hooah ?

[Furunculus]

It does , unless you can show that the media didn't run with 56 killed in london attack since you seem to support Thompsons line that a headline of 3 killed in west bank attack is a sign of bias .

Actually you are just showing your own bias , in the same way as the people that complained that the BBC were biased on the Iraq war ...complaints from both the people who supported the warand those who oppose it each claiming the BBC was biased against them , actually its just like the people who launch complaints that the BBC is too pro-Israeli .

that has nothing to do with the question of how israeli vs palestinian attacks are presented on beeb news.

the comment was by way of explanation to another poster as to why i was pleased to see the der-spiegel article, and was not a provable or disprovable due to the fact it was based on my perception of tv news, so what is the point of this great circumlocution?

[Fragony]

It does , unless you can show that the media didn't run with 56 killed in london attack since you seem to support Thompsons line that a headline of 3 killed in west bank attack is a sign of bias .

Kidding me? Where is the media when rockets hit Israel? Where is the media about the butchering in Darfur? Where was the media when muslim hordes were attacking serbs? The media is the leftist ministery of truth and they have made their choice they are just another stain on the wall.

[rory_20_uk]

Kidding me? Where is the media when rockets hit Israel? Where is the media about the butchering in Darfur? Where was the media when muslim hordes were attacking serbs? The media is the leftist ministery of truth and they have made their choice they are just another stain on the wall.

Cost to get British reporters to the Capital: None.
Difficulty: None
Interest in the UK: massive

Cost to get reporters to Darfur: Considerable
Difficulty: Very - unsafe to boot
Interest in the UK - minimal

Yes, there are loads of conflicts. The safety of reporters in Israel is quite good (as long as you stay a long way from the borders as media crew vans are difficult to see with a modern tank's scope).

Getting the media in to the area is an issue you appear to be wilfully ignoring - as well as them not dying.

[Fragony]

Not talking about real journalists, they have zero chance to make it they are condemned to freelance, I am talking about whorenalists.

[rory_20_uk]

Not talking about real journalists, they have zero chance to make it they are condemned to freelance, I am talking about whorenalists.

Oh, the unclean business of earning a wage.

What exactly is it that you do which allows you to sneer at everyone who has to compromise between what they'd like to do and what they have to do to earn a living?

[Hooahguy]

Is that todays daily myth from hooah ?

nope. no myth. do you really want to argue this? you know you are wrong. where do you think most of the survivors went? america pretty much closed its doors, and Europe is in shambles.
where else to go? israel. duh.

im not talking about the actual founders. im talking about the people who made up most of the immigrants to israel.

ok tribesman, where do YOU think they went, if you think that comment was a myth?

[Tribesman]

nope. no myth. do you really want to argue this? you know you are wrong. where do you think most of the survivors went? america pretty much closed its doors, and Europe is in shambles.
where else to go? israel. duh.

Once again you show how clueless you are , most of the survivors returned to their countries though a fairly large proportion ended up in america .
Perhaps your "research" is letting you down again , have you tried any of the places that study the shoah by any chance ?
Have you considered trying the Jewish documentation center for a start

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Looks like you're both right to an extent.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Looks like you're both right to an extent.

EVFM:

Be careful sir, continued efforts to be reasonable such as the one displayed above might be cause for a warning.

[Tribesman]

Are you saying those are the same situations, with the same public perception of the context behind each event?

What I am saying is that if there are two similar headlines over two similar events how can one be biased and the other not .
If both follow the headline with a story saying terrorist and two people killed and 4 terrorists and 52 people killed then all it demonstrates is not bias but the simple everyday practice of using short headlines .

[Hooahguy]

Once again you show how clueless you are , most of the survivors returned to their countries though a fairly large proportion ended up in america .
Perhaps your "research" is letting you down again , have you tried any of the places that study the shoah by any chance ?
Have you considered trying the Jewish documentation center for a start

whoooaaaaa.... i guess i just cant stand up to revisionist history, can i?

dude, study the holocaust. the previous statement that you said proves that youve done no research of the aftermath. I learn my history from people like Dr. Lipstadt and such (just btw). of the people in israel in 1948, most were survivors.
btw most did not return to their homes in europe. most had no homes to go to. they were taken over by germans or poles.
more to come.

[Tribesman]

dude, study the holocaust. the previous statement that you said proves that youve done no research of the aftermath.

[Crazed Rabbit]

It does , unless you can show that the media didn't run with 56 killed in london attack since you seem to support Thompsons line that a headline of 3 killed in west bank attack is a sign of bias .

Are you saying those are the same situations, with the same public perception of the context behind each event?

CR

[Idaho]

..but i do see thousands chanting for the destruction of israel in multiple arab countries.

why do you find a problem with us jews being hell bent on survival?

I don't have any problem with us jews being hell bent on survival. I just have a problem if us jews decide that we need to kill 200 children as collective punishment for 10 Israelis dying.

[Hooahguy]

I don't have any problem with us jews being hell bent on survival. I just have a problem if us jews decide that we need to kill 200 children as collective punishment for 10 Israelis dying.

its not just 10 jews dieing. its many more. just from the start of the operation, 10 jews have died.
do you know that the people in sderot only have 10 seconds to get to shelter? do you know that life has stopped there? no buisness, very little goes on in the streets. people are terrified to go out. no one should live in terror, which they have for since the rockets first started falling.

btw, what do you mean by "us jews" when i said that i was referring to myself and other jews.

[Idaho]

its not just 10 jews dieing. its many more. just from the start of the operation, 10 jews have died.
do you know that the people in sderot only have 10 seconds to get to shelter? do you know that life has stopped there? no buisness, very little goes on in the streets. people are terrified to go out. no one should live in terror, which they have for since the rockets first started falling.

You won't find me justifying that. The rocket attacks need to stop. But killing hundreds of kids? Is that really contributing to the solution or merely adding to the injustice?

btw, what do you mean by "us jews" when i said that i was referring to myself and other jews.

Me too

[Hooahguy]

Me too

you are jewish?

[rory_20_uk]

you are jewish?

No!!!!!!!!! He...... Can't...... be!!!

I mean, he's saying random killing isn't a good thing...

There must be some impure Gentile blood in there somewhere

[Hooahguy]

No!!!!!!!!! He...... Can't...... be!!!

I mean, he's saying random killing isn't a good thing...

im not saying that being jewish automatically makes you a supporter of israel. i was just surprised that he was. is being surprised a crime?

i do not believe that the IDF randomly kills kids. the 200 + dead children is very tragic, but i do not believe that the IDF goes on missions with the aim of killing children. that is not what my friends who have served in Gaza and the IDF have said, and there isnt anything that you can say that will make me think otherwise, unless the IDF says "our purpose is to kill children," which they have never said.

[Idaho]

you are jewish?

Enough of one to qualify for Israeli citizenship.

[Don Corleone]

I'm curious folks, and I'm taking an informal poll, tangentially related to the thread topic. We have a 'usual suspects' list of those who play apologist for the IDF versus those who play apologist for Hamas. While the degree of defense (and denial) varies among members on each side, at the end of the day, I believe the lines are pretty set.

Normally in politics, 1/3 argues with the other 1/3 for mindshare of the undecided 1/3 in the middle. On this particular issue, there is no middle, and it's rare, if not strictly hypothetical, for somebody's views to shift on this issue.

I know Idaho and Tribesman are always going to agree with the Palestinians. And I know CR & Hooahguy are going to come down on the side of the Israelis. There's never going to be any deviation from that predetermined result.

So, like Sisyphus with his rock, we roll this debate out about once a month. I'm as guilty as anyone. But I find myself asking, myself and all of you, why do we continue to debate this? Do any of us really honestly believe we're not in the Verdun of backroom conversations? Do any of you have any hope of climbing out of the trench and advancing, or of evolving your own line of thought, for that matter?

I'm serious about this... I'm really curious regardless of your stance, whether you have any marginal hope or belief that you might actually influence anyone's views on this issue, and if so, what supports you in that delusion?

Please respond to this post of Don's in the thread created for this discussion. Thanks. SF

[Furunculus]

I don't have any problem with us jews being hell bent on survival. I just have a problem if us jews decide that we need to kill 200 children as collective punishment for 10 Israelis dying.

now now, you know that israel did not collectively punish palestinians by killing 200 gazan kiddies.