Gaza again

[Hooahguy]

Because it was gibberish not a question

really? funny. i asked a few mods and they said it was a perfectly reasonable question.

[Husar]

really? funny. i asked a few mods and they said it was a perfectly reasonable question.

Which he just answered...

[Hooahguy]

but he just said that it was gibberish.

[Tribesman]

but he just said that it was gibberish.

Thats because it was gibberish as you got it all arseways right from the start .

[Don Corleone]

Don't pay any attention to Tribesman, Hooah. He's an entertaining fellow, and one I have no doubt is quite engaging in the pubs. But he doesn't tolerate dissenting views too well. You either agree with everything he has to say as supremely inspired, or its. for you!

[Tribesman]

But he doesn't tolerate dissenting views too well.

Really Don ?
you wouldn't decribe the views of hooah in this topic not so much as dissenting but more as devoid of rational thought ?

[Lemur]

Tribes, hooah, do us all a favor and take it to PM, please.

[Don Corleone]

He asked you a reasonable question, and as Seamus suggested, you answered him in a nuanced way that more prostelyized your own position yet again rather than answering his question. He asked you for a more specific response, and you suggested that his inquiries were devoid of rational thought.

It's okay, old friend. After all these years, I've come to accept you for who you are. I know that you cannot possibly fathom how any intelligent person could possibly disagree with you, ergo, anybody who disagrees with you must not be intelligent (or if it's a particular issue on which they disagree with you, they've taken temporary leave of their senses).

I must admit, I suffer from the same malady myself from time to time, a condition from which I attempting to remedy myself.


Hooah, at the end of the day, what Tribesman is so obtusely getting at is that from his perspective, Israel has no hope in any military solution at all. In his estimation, Israel's only hope is to attempt to placate the anger of its foes, assuming it's not too late and the rage hasn't become too uncontrollable.

What I think he fails to consider is that his proposed solution has been attempted at various points in the 70s, the 80s, and the 90s, and each and every time, Israel's foes have used such period of magnamity to redouble the efforts against them.

I honestly don't know if the pervasive European thought is that Europeans don't believe the pan-Islamic world when they say their ultimate goal is to eliminate Israel and Jews in the Middle East, or you're content with that as a final result yourselves. All I know is I find it utterly amazing that Hamas fires rockets into Israel in direct violation of the most recently established ceasefire and the most popular European response is that Israel was to blame, followed with condemnation of Israel for suggesting that they might do ANYTHING to prevent future attacks.

[Hooahguy]

Tribes, hooah, do us all a favor and take it to PM, please.

will do, assuming he wants to reply to my PM's...

@Don
well put!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

Really Don ?
you wouldn't decribe the views of hooah in this topic not so much as dissenting but more as devoid of rational thought ?

And you taking shots at me and everyone else gets you what again...... Warning points? But wait, you just trying to stir up a debate, and besides, I'm just 16 years old, you a big boy adult, I don't know anything about these issues. I think it's time to put this guy on my ignore list so I don't get any points myself for aruging with him, a mute point it is.




Hamas will never learn though. If you bomb and kill innocent people, expect the same to be done to you. If US went to, say, Africa and just killed 800,000 Africans in a few year timespan, we would proably get attacked by at least terrorists, maybe even other nations, yet, if Hamas can want the deaths of all the Israeils and want to kill Men,women and children like they already did in Israel, it's ok to blame Israel for attacking Hamas and provoking Hamas, but.... Meh.

[Fragony]

Don't bother Husar , he has a mental block .
Its a simple process , so simple that anyone with a functioning brain should be able to understand .
Option A doesn't work , it will never work .
Option B has been shown to work repeatedly .
If in this instance option B fails to deliver the required results at the first attempt then you try option B again because option Awill never work .

Option A being, and option B being? Result being?

[LittleGrizzly]

What I think he fails to consider is that his proposed solution has been attempted at various points in the 70s, the 80s, and the 90s, and each and every time, Israel's foes have used such period of magnamity to redouble the efforts against them.

Do you think the IRA dropped thier weapons the moment we started trying to make peace ?

You even said the other day you believed the real IRA was under the control of the IRA (i would disagree slightly, it was probably controlled by extreme elements of the IRA) the real IRA kept up attacks for years whilst britian was trying to make peace, if we had gone in there guns blazing we would have just set the whole thing back a few decades... hell they even did a huge bank robbery like a year or so back... this is years after peace had been made, its a long hard road, much easier to go in guns blazing and please the crowds baying for blood

What i think really helped with Britian is that the issue wasn't considered as important as it is in Israel, so we didn't have politicians being 'strong leaders' in an attempt to win votes the same way they can in Israel, this allowed leaders to work on solving the issues rather than simply posturing for the masses..

I honestly don't know if the pervasive European thought is that Europeans don't believe the pan-Islamic world when they say their ultimate goal is to eliminate Israel and Jews in the Middle East

Extreme situations cause extreme reactions, it is the same all over the world, if your taking outside of area's israel directly effects (like palestine and lebanon) then im sure the general population gets less and less anti-semitic, sure there are still some bad feelings, in the same way anti-muslim racism over here increased expotentially when we had muslims suicide bomb us, anti-semitic racism increase across the middle east everytime Israel attacks muslims, if it happens to the extent it does in a rich and educated country like britian then you can only imagine how much more it would affect the uneducated, oppressed people living in poverty.

or you're content with that as a final result yourselves.

yeah europeans hates jews and americans hate muslims... couldn't be anything to do with differing points of view...

All I know is I find it utterly amazing that Hamas fires rockets into Israel in direct violation of the most recently established ceasefire and the most popular European response is that Israel was to blame

You know whats even more amazing, logical intelligent people like yourself supporting israel trying the same failed plan repeatedly, why not turn around and say wait a second... this isn't working... maybe we need to try something else ?

I didn't actually mention the current event in my post, i was just generally giving my view on the conflict as a whole and criticising the repeated attempts at a failed strategy, infact thats what i noticed myself tribesman and a few others doing.

followed with condemnation of Israel for suggesting that they might do ANYTHING to prevent future
attacks.

I would love it if Israel actually did something to prevent future attacks, unfortunately all they seem to want to do is encourage them, the moment Israel engages in actual attempts to stop terrorism i will be full of praise!

I don't know anything about these issues.

I think thats the first time you have ever made anything close to approaching sense

[Don Corleone]

I've said this before and I'll say it again (and shame on me for invoking it in this thread) the Northern-Ireland/Palestine parallels break down in one fundamental sense: The IRA were never fighting for the end of the UK and the extermination of Englishmen. I submit that if the existence of the UK was the ante on the table, the British would have had a decidedly different approach.

For the record, I am NOT ruling out negotiation and attempting to find peaceful solutions. I'm trying to say that all sides SHOULD be doing that, and when one side decides to abandon the peace processs, there has to be consequences. There has to be.

I do believe the Israeli government should be negotiating with Hamas, or whomever the Palestinians select to lead them. In fact, I believe they are. But when the negotiations slow, Hamas cannot turn to rockets into Israel as a means to 'diplomacy by other means'. And when they (seemingly inevitably) do, they have to know that 1) it will not secure for them the results they desire and 2) they will experience negative consequences for negotiating in bad faith.

Now, perhaps I'm missing something, but what I seem to hear as the prevalent view coming from Europe is as follows:

-Israel should negotiate with Hamas on a peaceful, viable agreement (we agree here).
-When Hamas isn't getting what they want at the negotiation table, it's okay for them to resort to violence. Well, no technically, what I hear is "they shouldn't, but there shouldn't be any consequences for them to do so".
-Israel must never retaliate for any violence.
-Israel must not take measures to ensure their safety.

Let's take the checkpoints for a second... Do you think Israel likes shutting down highways, commerce, etecera? Let's not forget, the Palestinians are doing business with somebody... there must be somebody on the other side of that checkpoint that wants to sell or buy a good or a service.

So why the checkpoints? Hmmm, maybe stopping suicide bombers? Aaah, you say, well, just trust the Palestianian leadership to guarantee that it won't happen again. To which I reply, and when it does? The answer... well, eggs are going to break to make the omlette, Israel just has to learn to deal with a few suicide bombings.... Only by proving how much they will endure can they convince the other side they truly want peace... And meanwhile, Hamas interprets that as "Aaah, Israel is now more afraid of European condemnation than us. Let's ratchet it up some more."

Has it ever occurred to you and the rest of the folks over there that peace talks have failed because at the end of the day, they require a condition that is unpalatable to one side and always will be? Do any of you honestly, truly ever see a world in which Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israel to exist? In the absence of that, or the extermination of Israel, what else can you offer?

[LittleGrizzly]

I dont know if you've noticed but the IRA never actually achieved its goal, so if we can get extremists like the IRA to accept that thier fairly reasonable goal of an independent united ireland isn't happening, or at least not commit terrorism over, then it would be far easier to convince extremists like hamas that they can't achieve thier extreme goals.

I would imagine that the goal of a united independant ireland run much closer to most ira members hearts than killing all jews runs closely to hamas members hearts, i sometimes think people deliberately pick that at that one things as a good excuse to keep up the failed tactic rather than try the proven one...

L

[Hooahguy]

I don't know anything about these issues.

I think thats the first time you have ever made anything close to approaching sense

dont do that. thats tribesman-like behavior and its reprehensible.

[Lemur]

An interesting summation of just how ****** the situation on the ground is:

Where to begin? Palestinians are now divided between the West Bank and Gaza, with a secular Palestinian Authority based in Ramallah in the West Bank and a fundamentalist Hamas government based in Gaza. But Hamas is further divided between a military and political wing, and the political wing is further divided between a Gaza-based leadership and a Damascus-based leadership, with the latter taking orders from both Syria and Iran.

Are you still with me?

Best I can tell, the Palestinians from Gaza are simultaneously negotiating a cease-fire with Israel in Cairo, pursuing war-crimes charges against Israel in Europe, digging new tunnels in the Sinai to smuggle more rockets into Gaza to hit Tel Aviv and trying to raise money for reconstruction from Iran. Meanwhile, the West Bank Palestinian leaders are busy publicly collecting food and blankets to help all those Palestinian civilians brutalized by the Israeli incursion into Gaza, while privately demanding to know from senior Israeli officials why they wimped out and didn’t wipe Hamas in Gaza off the face of earth — casualties be damned.

Israel, meanwhile, has a government in which the prime minister, foreign minister and defense minister each has a different peace plan, war strategy and cease-fire conditions for Gaza, and the foreign minister and defense minster are running against each other in Israel’s election on Tuesday. Speaking of that election, a whole new party, Yisrael Beiteinu, led by Avigdor Lieberman, which has been accused of having “fascist,” viciously anti-Arab leanings, appears headed to make the biggest gains and possibly become the kingmaker of Israel’s next government. The other day, the Labor Party leader, Ehud Barak, was quoted in the newspaper Haaretz as criticizing Lieberman as a lamb in hawk’s clothing, asking: “When has he ever shot anyone?”

How did this conflict get so fragmented?

As I said earlier in the thread, Lt. Ellen Ripley has already given us the answer. Take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Gregoshi]

As I said earlier in the thread, Lt. Ellen Ripley has already given us the answer. Take off, nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

That might solve the global warming issue too, believe it or not.

[LittleGrizzly]

Fubar indeed!

If a viciously anti arab party got elected in Israel would that excuse arabs from negotiating with Israel in the same way that Israel cannot negotiate with hamas because they are viciously anti-semitic ?

Or are there different standards ?

As i get older i get more tired of this issue, im only 22 and i feel fatigued just talking about the thing, if i live to 50 and this thing is still going i will probably sit very much in the kill them all let god sort them out camp...

[Hooahguy]

Fubar indeed!

If a viciously anti arab party got elected in Israel would that excuse arabs from negotiating with Israel in the same way that Israel cannot negotiate with hamas because they are viciously anti-semitic ?

Or are there different standards ?

As i get older i get more tired of this issue, im only 22 and i feel fatigued just talking about the thing, if i live to 50 and this thing is still going i will probably sit very much in the kill them all let god sort them out camp...

well, israeli policies are decided on by the Knesset, which have a large variety of views.
but i will say that if Avigdor Lieberman is elected, it will be a disaster.

[LittleGrizzly]

If the people of Israel who are educated and relatively prosperus can get pushed to such extremes, can you understand why the people of palestine who are nowhere near as educated or rich can get pushed to thier extreme views ?

[naut]

My favourite quote from the whole mess ever:

"The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet," Dov Weisglass, Israeli Prime Ministerial Adviser, on the blockade.

Quick-fire (no pun intended) questions to my friendly pro-Israel Orgahs. Why is it that over 2 thirds of children killed in Gaza were killed by sniper rifle fire? Why is it that over 97 health clinics and 11 hospitals are being blocked off to the Palestinian populations they serve by the Israeli border wall? When was the first rocket fired? How many confirmed deaths have been caused by rocket fire? (You'll get both wrong, I assure you). What percentage of the Palestinian population was polled as wanting peace with Israel?

I always found the snippets of Muslim clerics used by news stations to portray a "balanced outlook" humourous. As Omid Djalili said, it's a bit like using the head of the KKK to get a "balanced outlook" on western views.

PS: Don't take any of this personally, I like y'all, I just want to gauge your opinions/knowledge.

[Lemur]

Personally, I think the stupid, selfish extremists in that region have proved that they are unfit to govern. And their people, by permitting them to govern, have demonstrated that they are unfit to rule themselves. The Israelis and Palestinians have had their chance, and they've blown it every time. Enough.

I say the world takes up a collection and pays the Brits to re-colonize Greater Israel. If the Brits don't want the job, we can ask the Italians, since the Romans did a good job back in the day. If the Italians don't want the gig, we can probably get the Russians to do it. They're all grumpy 'cause they lost their empire, and crushing dissent in a small Middle Eastern country might make them feel better.

Seriously. I've completely had it with the Israelis and the Palestinians. They've been busily killing each other and screaming "Foul!" to the world community since I was a baby, and I'm now a middle aged man. To hell with the lot of them. If we can't nuke them, let's re-colonize them.

[Husar]

What I think he fails to consider is that his proposed solution has been attempted at various points in the 70s, the 80s, and the 90s, and each and every time, Israel's foes have used such period of magnamity to redouble the efforts against them.

It's post number 120 that I mean, he sais if option A never works and option B works at least temporarily, they should keep trying option B.
Now if you replace "option A" with "revenge" and "option B" with diplomacy, you might get the idea.
And since we're about asking other people about viability and noone asks me anyway, i want to say that i find that a viable answer to Hooah's question about what Tribes would propose if neither option leads to peace. In other words, Tribes proposes to keep trying the option that works at least somewhat instead of the one that doesn't work at all.
I didn't really find it very hard to figure that out, but maybe I got a little Tribesman inside me.

I honestly don't know if the pervasive European thought is that Europeans don't believe the pan-Islamic world when they say their ultimate goal is to eliminate Israel and Jews in the Middle East, or you're content with that as a final result yourselves. All I know is I find it utterly amazing that Hamas fires rockets into Israel in direct violation of the most recently established ceasefire and the most popular European response is that Israel was to blame, followed with condemnation of Israel for suggesting that they might do ANYTHING to prevent future attacks.

I tried to explain that myself, it's post number 103, you might want to read it.
On the issue of the pan-islamic world being serious about their threads or not I myself am not very sure, I think some probably are, but I do not think bombs are a solution for them, arrests or assassinations with small squads are more dangerous but they are what civilized nations use when some citizens act up. As Tribesman said before, when someone takes a bank hostage, you don't just fire with artillery at the building to end this, do you?
What Israel should attempt with negotiations is a free Palestinian state that is not occupied, has access to important ressources and then hold the government responsible for terrorist acts when they happen, but right now it's a miserable place that reminds you of mad max and Israel expects it to be a peaceful place where law and order flourish and everybody has to love the ones who are cutting off their water and electricity.

I would also like to hear what you think should be done about settlers who settle in a foreign country that is not theirs and then throw stones at the locals and/or expulse them at gunpoint?
Now are the locals right to fight back or would you gladly leave your own house to a russian communist when he comes and moves in?

[Hooahguy]

Why is it that over 2 thirds of children killed in Gaza were killed by sniper rifle fire?

standard israeli procedure for when militants hide behind kids is to brng in a sniper, to try to take out the terrorist behind them. unfortunately the targets move, so its kinda hard to always hit.

Why is it that over 97 health clinics and 11 hospitals are being blocked off to the Palestinian populations they serve by the Israeli border wall?

first of all its a fence, not a wall. only about 5% of the fence is actually a wall.
EDIT: to add to my incomplete thought, the checkpoints are very necessary. they have cut down on suicide bombings drastically, and unfortunately, the heath clinics are cut off.

When was the first rocket fired?

16 April, 2001

How many confirmed deaths have been caused by rocket fire?

still looking, will get back to you.

What percentage of the Palestinian population was polled as wanting peace with Israel?

i read somewhere that only like 25% of them wanted peace in a poll taken a few years back. ill find it for you if you want.

[naut]

standard israeli procedure for when militants hide behind kids is to brng in a sniper, to try to take out the terrorist behind them. unfortunately the targets move, so its kinda hard to always hit.

No offence, but you made that up didn't you. (Nothing personal, it just sounds made up).

16 April, 2001

Close but no cigar. October 2001. Scratch that, the one you mention, is correct.

still looking, will get back to you.

Take your time.

i read somewhere that only like 25% of them wanted peace in a poll taken a few years back. ill find it for you if you want.

80%.

[Strike For The South]

Without sources. Both yours and Hooahs information is suspect.

[Fragony]

I am kinda confused on how people believe that diplomacy has always worked?

[Husar]

I am kinda confused on how people believe that diplomacy has always worked?

Please read, noone said it has always worked, we just said it works better than revenge, at the very least it leads to a short period of peace while revenge leads to a short period of death and destruction.
Diplomacy can also potentially arrive at a solution for the whole thing, while a final solution through war and destruction, well, final solution says it all, doesn't it? Last time someone tried that he didn't find much support outside his country.

[Fragony]

Please read, noone said it has always worked, we just said it works better than revenge, at the very least it leads to a short period of peace while revenge leads to a short period of death and destruction.
Diplomacy can also potentially arrive at a solution for the whole thing, while a final solution through war and destruction, well, final solution says it all, doesn't it? Last time someone tried that he didn't find much support outside his country.

What makes you think I want a final solution. I never made a case for that not even remotely that must be your inner Tribes speaking. Diplomacy with Hamas is sitting back while you are being shaved.

[Hooahguy]

No offence, but you made that up didn't you. (Nothing personal, it just sounds made up).

nope. i swear to you that is the correct procedure. ask an IDF soldier who has seen stand-offs like these. i have many.

80%.

kind of. most want peace, but dont want to recognize israel. but you cant have peace if you dont recognize israel, IMO.