CA I beseech you! (With poll)

[Vuk]

I have not played ETW, or a demo, so I obviously do not know much about the game yet, but, the impression that I have gotten looking at the reviews, interviews, screenshots/videos, etc was that the game may be being rushed a bit, and certain aspects of it not as developed as they should be. In particular, I mean naval combat and the SP campaign map. Naval combat is the flagship of ETW, and is something that fans have wanted for a very long time, so I am sure that know how important it is that it is as well developed as land battles and up to Total War standards. (I have not seen the naval combat, so I am not sure if it is up to par with land battles or not, but reviews have made me suspect that it is not) Also, MP campaign is something that everyone has wanted for a long time, and could be one of the largest and most popular features of the new game. This is something that SHOULD be included with the game, not added on later. It is also something that needs to be up to par with the SP campaign.
I am not writing this to bash you CA, but to tell you that if you need more time you should just postpone the release a month or two if possible. Everyone WILL still buy the game, AND they will probably like it a lot more. I know that your distributers have deadlines on you, but I do not think that it would be an unwise business move to delay it a bit IF you need to to make sure that those parts of the game are up to Total War standards. I have been a fan of Total War from the start, and am sure that you will deliver an excellent game again, but please, if you need the time and if it is possible, just take the time to get it out right the first time.

Vuk

[Polemists]

is that it is as well developed as land battles

The land battles have been through FIVE total war games, and countless expansion packs going back YEARS. To expect the Naval Combat to be as good as Land with only one internetation and a handful of naval simulators to feed off of is silly.

If it's playable, and a little fun i'm fine with it. No need for a delay that I see.

[Sir Beane]

I'm going to have to vote No, because if CA delay the game again then I will die a little inside.

Since I want my soul to stay intact they need to release it without delay.

If there are things that need changing and fixing I think we can probably leave it in the capable hands of the modders.

[Wausser]

Voted No, I just can't take anymore delay....

[Vuk]

I'm going to have to vote No, because if CA delay the game again then I will die a little inside.

Since I want my soul to stay intact they need to release it without delay.

If there are things that need changing and fixing I think we can probably leave it in the capable hands of the modders.

Modders cannot change hard coding. 2 months later you would enjoy the game even more, and a month from that you would have a higher opinion of CA, and not even care that the game was delayed a month or two.

The land battles have been through FIVE total war games, and countless expansion packs going back YEARS. To expect the Naval Combat to be as good as Land with only one internetation and a handful of naval simulators to feed off of is silly.

If it's playable, and a little fun i'm fine with it. No need for a delay that I see.

It cannot be as polished, definately, but it has to be solid. The first time CA did land battles they were solid, and they got better since then. A lot of things that they learned with land battles can be applied to naval battles as well, so there is no reason NOT to have a well developed naval combat system. (I know it does not have to be perfect, or as polished as land battles) I am not saying that it needs to be perfect the first time, just up to total war standards. And esp since naval combat is one of their biggest selling points, it would not be wise to go half butt.

[Sir Beane]

You are right about hard coded limits, but CA did promise that there are much fewer of those limits this time around.

I think my confidence in CA would be damaged more by them delaying the game again than the game having a few faults out of the box. Then can fix things in patches and expansions, but they can't give me a month or two of waiting time back.

It's all a matter of opinion though really, and if they really, really need to delay it to get something important working then I suppose I could live with it.

[Polemists]

Modders cannot change hard coding. 2 months later you would enjoy the game even more, and a month from that you would have a higher opinion of CA, and not even care that the game was delayed a month or two.

Actually you'd be surprised what our modders can do and actually no, since every other game just got delayed to Apri-June period I'd be playing something else by then. Mar only has Empire, so that'd be all I play.

It cannot be as polished, definately, but it has to be solid. The first time CA did land battles they were solid, and they got better since then. A lot of things that they learned with land battles can be applied to naval battles as well, so there is no reason NOT to have a well developed naval combat system. (I know it does not have to be perfect, or as polished as land battles) I am not saying that it needs to be perfect the first time, just up to total war standards. And esp since naval combat is one of their biggest selling points, it would not be wise to go half butt.

Firstly they are not the same lessons, since most people are whining about wind, movement, and tacking.

DId you play shogun? I did, and I remeber the reviews that described it as good but not perfect, and let's pull a quote here,

But the tactical game isn't perfect. There are a few formation problems. While it's pretty easy to arrange individual units, it's nearly impossible to move a whole army and maintain their facings and positions.

That's from IGN. Like I said, you guys completely forget how total war started with land battles. It was fun, not perfect.

That's all they are saying about naval, I did not see a single quote in that entire article that called it "broken", or "Unplayable" . The only comment I saw was "Chaotic" which is the exact same word they used to describe shogun land battles.

You expect to much, it's a fun game, I want it out and to play it. There is nothing else in march. CA can do patches and expansions later to address fan concerns.

[Vuk]

I do not want to wait anymore than you, but at the end of the day, I think that CA would be more appreciated if they took the time needed to get it right. Again though, I do not know if it is not at an acceptable standard now, I am just saying that if they really do need the time to get it to that standard, I wish that they would take it. I really do not like the idea of the campaign MP being added on later for instance. I would be willing to bet that there would be less limitations in it if they did it all together. Now if they get 3/4 through it and see that they need to change some hard coding, it will be too late.

You are right about hard coded limits, but CA did promise that there are much fewer of those limits this time around.

I think my confidence in CA would be damaged more by them delaying the game again than the game having a few faults out of the box. Then can fix things in patches and expansions, but they can't give me a month or two of waiting time back.

It's all a matter of opinion though really, and if they really, really need to delay it to get something important working then I suppose I could live with it.

[Vuk]

Actually you'd be surprised what our modders can do and actually no, since every other game just got delayed to Apri-June period I'd be playing something else by then. Mar only has Empire, so that'd be all I play.


Firstly they are not the same lessons, since most people are whining about wind, movement, and tacking.

DId you play shogun? I did, and I remeber the reviews that described it as good but not perfect, and let's pull a quote here,



That's from IGN. Like I said, you guys completely forget how total war started with land battles. It was fun, not perfect.

That's all they are saying about naval, I did not see a single quote in that entire article that called it "broken", or "Unplayable" . The only comment I saw was "Chaotic" which is the exact same word they used to describe shogun land battles.

You expect to much, it's a fun game, I want it out and to play it. There is nothing else in march. CA can do patches and expansions later to address fan concerns.

Polemists, you know as well as I that there is only so much that modders can do. Also, you know that you buy ETW if it was delayed, and you know that you would play it.
Also, it is like I said about shogun, the gameplay was not perfect, but it was SOLID. That is what I want from Empire, and I think that is what fans are expecting. Also, technology has improved, and CA has learned a lot since Shogun, so I think that most people would expect naval battles to be quite a bit more polished than Shogun's land battles. While wind and tacking does not apply, CA has made so many changes in morale, formations, AI, etc that a lot of will surely be applicable in naval battles, so it is not like they are starting as completely new as with Shogun.
I think you missed my entire point.

[Polemists]

Let's take these topics one at a time, shall we

Polemists, you know as well as I that there is only so much that modders can do. Also, you know that you buy ETW if it was delayed, and you know that you would play it.

That's a question of when. If it comes out in march, I buy it on day one, I have the money, they get my money. We are all happy.

If it comes out after april there are other games, and as much as I'd like to I can't buy everything , every month, I'd probably delay buying it a month or two if I felt another game was out I'd enjoy.

morale, formations, AI, etc that a lot of will surely be applicable in naval battles,

I don't think people would want to see ships sail in formation or you'd run into similiar facing issues as water is not a hard surface as land is in the bland battles. The AI has more smaller units, so it is less they have to get to move, restructure.

I havn't heard a single AI comment. I've only heard it felt "arcadey". I don't mind that, that's how Sid Miers felt, heck I even enjoyed it. I don't want overly tactical to point I have to micromanage the wind flaps. Neither do most new players. New players beat vets, fact of marketing, more 12 yr old gamers then mature ones, if you don't buy that just talk to world of warcraft.

are starting as completely new

They are starting completely new, it's a brand new engine, brand new coding, lots of new.


End of the day I don't see a single justification to delay. Those of you who want a delay can just wait till a expansion.

If the game is addictive and getting high 90% reviews I think it will do just fine. There always are nay sayers, Ca can't make everyone 100% happy. They can however make some money and make the rest of us happy

[Fisherking]

I understand that we want a good playable game on release. And I understand the desire to have it as good as it can get when it comes out.

The down side of another delay is that it gives the appearance of incompetence. I don’t think that is a good image for a company to have.

Evidently CA felt that they could have the product ready with the additional month. Development is continuing with the multiplayer portion. It doesn’t mean it is limited to that, however.

I am sure they have weighed these options before making the decision to delay the first time.

Many games have delayed several times and still been crap on release. Time is not the only factor, unfortunately.

Naval Battles are new and the complexities of controlling many ships presents a hefty learning curve. 20 ships per side is huge for a naval simulator. If it plays well single ship or with a few then it should in theory play as well with the full number. The added difficulties are not going to be overcome at a development level, they have to be learned by the individual players.

People averse to the need to develop skills at a game are never going to love large naval battles and likely describe the land battles as needing micro management as well.

Some love this type of game while others stick to first person shooters…You don’t know which kind of person is writing the reviews but most have given us a reason to look forward to a great game and not to worry about an over complex half finished product.

[Vuk]

I don't think people would want to see ships sail in formation or you'd run into similiar facing issues as water is not a hard surface as land is in the bland battles. The AI has more smaller units, so it is less they have to get to move, restructure.

I havn't heard a single AI comment. I've only heard it felt "arcadey". I don't mind that, that's how Sid Miers felt, heck I even enjoyed it. I don't want overly tactical to point I have to micromanage the wind flaps. Neither do most new players. New players beat vets, fact of marketing, more 12 yr old gamers then mature ones, if you don't buy that just talk to world of warcraft.


They are starting completely new, it's a brand new engine, brand new coding, lots of new.

I know that, but I mean things like pathfinding for the crew on ships, morale, etc. They are things that their experience in the other games will help them develop, which is what I meant. I know they are starting with a new engine, but they have years of experience and knowledge, which is exaclty what I meant.

End of the day I don't see a single justification to delay. Those of you who want a delay can just wait till a expansion.

If the game is addictive and getting high 90% reviews I think it will do just fine. There always are nay sayers, Ca can't make everyone 100% happy. They can however make some money and make the rest of us happy

GIVE ME THE CANDY! NOW!
I see no justification for putting part of the game out on March and releasing the rest a little while later when it could be released all together as a complete game. You know that you will be happy (indeed, probably happier) if a complete game is shipped a later on. I do not know how good naval battles are, but I do not like the idea of campaign MP being release seperately. I have no doubt that the game will be great, but it should be released in (and hopefully will be) a solid, fun package.
People always whine about getting it out as soon as possible, then whine about CA not taking the little time it would have taken to fix this or that thing that is now causing problems or making the gameplay less enjoyable.

[Vuk]

I understand that we want a good playable game on release. And I understand the desire to have it as good as it can get when it comes out.

The down side of another delay is that it gives the appearance of incompetence. I don’t think that is a good image for a company to have.

Evidently CA felt that they could have the product ready with the additional month. Development is continuing with the multiplayer portion. It doesn’t mean it is limited to that, however.

I am sure they have weighed these options before making the decision to delay the first time.

Many games have delayed several times and still been crap on release. Time is not the only factor, unfortunately.

Naval Battles are new and the complexities of controlling many ships presents a hefty learning curve. 20 ships per side is huge for a naval simulator. If it plays well single ship or with a few then it should in theory play as well with the full number. The added difficulties are not going to be overcome at a development level, they have to be learned by the individual players.

People averse to the need to develop skills at a game are never going to love large naval battles and likely describe the land battles as needing micro management as well.

Some love this type of game while others stick to first person shooters…You don’t know which kind of person is writing the reviews but most have given us a reason to look forward to a great game and not to worry about an over complex half finished product.

Definately, and I agree that CA will probably release an excellent game, but if naval battles are not what they should be an a TW game and campaign MP is not ready, I think that they deserve and owe it to the fans to take the time to fix that. I do not think that it would make them look incompetent. In fact, the only time I have ever heard CA be called incompetent was in reference to rushing releases like M2:TW (a game that I particularly love).
A good game takes a complex thing and makes it simple; that is what is so good about the Total War games. Land battles were so complex, but they represent them with a simple gameplay formula, while not losing a lot of accuracy and realism at the same time. If they can do that with naval battles, they will have a winner. I guess we will just have to see.

[Zoring]

Far too late to delay the game now anyhow. Surely all the manufacturing, packaging and shipping is all taking place by now.

[Polemists]

I like candy


That said

You know that you will be happy (indeed, probably happier)

No I won't, i'm going to be pretty poed for those months I have to wait with no total war and just screenshots.

So I'd rather have my game now, which will make me about as happy as I can get

I'm perfectly fine with mp being released as a seperate feature. Espically since

That is what they already promised a MONTH AGO. Back when no one complained about it in the press release.

As for Naval Combat, it is what it is.

[Vuk]

A month ago I was living in a dirty apartment in Munich with no internet. :P
I am hoping that everything is good too, all I asked CA was if it DID need more work, that they would do it, and I hope that if it does they will.

I like candy


That said



No I won't, i'm going to be pretty poed for those months I have to wait with no total war and just screenshots.

So I'd rather have my game now, which will make me about as happy as I can get

I'm perfectly fine with mp being released as a seperate feature. Espically since

That is what they already promised a MONTH AGO. Back when no one complained about it in the press release.

As for Naval Combat, it is what it is.

[Polemists]

A month ago I was living in a dirty apartment in Munich with no internet.

See, Empire total war changed your life




I don't think it needs a delay though I assume it will always be a 50/50 bet on these forums as to whether people think yes or no. You've got your demo fanatics on par with your patch fanatics who will wait eons for a game.

I'm pretty tired of waiting myself, but to each thier own.

[Vuk]

I'm an easy going guy.

See, Empire total war changed your life




I don't think it needs a delay though I assume it will always be a 50/50 bet on these forums as to whether people think yes or no. You've got your demo fanatics on par with your patch fanatics who will wait eons for a game.

I'm pretty tired of waiting myself, but to each thier own.

[Polemists]

Well now that i've heard the CA comment

We've already responded to criticism about the naval battles since the reviewer wrote the article and have improved the fun factor at sea quite a bit.

Although the game is almost finished, we're still tweaking and improving until release (and will continue to do so after release, of course)!

I REALLY see no reason for a delay

[Fisherking]

Well now that i've heard the CA comment

Quote:
We've already responded to criticism about the naval battles since the reviewer wrote the article and have improved the fun factor at sea quite a bit.

Although the game is almost finished, we're still tweaking and improving until release (and will continue to do so after release, of course)!




I REALLY see no reason for a delay

Where did you find that?

[Vuk]

lol, it does help reassure me about naval battles that they are devoting more attention to it, but I still do not like the idea of campaign MP not being included in the full release.

[Sir Beane]

That is great to know! The first real sign something might have been badly wrong with the game and already we have reassurance.

I think it's also interesting that so far we have a 7/7 split in opinion.

[Polemists]

For those curious

I found it here

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=223984&page=5

Thamis, post # 87.

You can see his info beneath his name

Jan van der Crabben
Game Designer on Empire: Total War
Creative Assembly UK

They use a little CA emblem to say which one devs post in.

Fyi, there is more then one empire forum, for those of you who did not know

[Vuk]

That is great to know! The first real sign something might have been badly wrong with the game and already we have reassurance.

I think it's also interesting that so far we have a 7/7 split in opinion.

lol, I did not say that I changed my mind though. ;) I still do not like the idea that they are having to make these major last minute tweaks, and of course the campaign MP.
I think the split gets down to what people want. The main reasons that I would buy E:TW is as follows:
1 CA impressed me with good gameplay before and I trust them
2 I like the time period
3 Naval combat
4 MP campaign map

When two of those are missing or not up to TW standards, I see no reason to buy the game until they are either fixed or added.

[Fisherking]

I am going now to read it…but first let me say that I hope they didn’t change it based on how much fun a reviewer had with it.


CA has always been too willing to take out or change a feature because some loudmouth didn’t like some perfectly legitimate aspect of one of the games.

Never mind what everyone who enjoyed it thought…and therefore were not screaming their silly heads off!

Hearing Fun Factor scares me much more than some jerks review…

[Polemists]

MP campaign map

Except this never was a feature of the game and has never been stated it will be part of release so I see no point. It's like saying you want downloadable content for a game that's not out yet, they say it's coming but it's never been part of the game until very recently.

and you just lose as it's 7 to 6 now No to yes just to spite you lol.

I take it all with a grain of salt, this is tw veterans posting for the most part, so they are the usual group of, let's wait 25 years until it's perfect.

I'm not willing tho, so I say release now.

That's just me tho

[Vuk]

Except this never was a feature of the game and has never been stated it will be part of release so I see no point. It's like saying you want downloadable content for a game that's not out yet, they say it's coming but it's never been part of the game until very recently.

and you just lose as it's 7 to 6 now No to yes just to spite you lol.

I take it all with a grain of salt, this is tw veterans posting for the most part, so they are the usual group of, let's wait 25 years until it's perfect.

I'm not willing tho, so I say release now.

That's just me tho

It is something though, that I have been wanting since I first played a total war game many years ago, and something that got me syched as soon as I heard about it. As I said, missing any TWO of these things...

I take it all with a grain of salt, this is tw veterans posting for the most part, so they are the usual group of, let's wait 25 years until it's perfect.

As I said, I do not expect a perfect game, do not like to wait, and do not want them to wait. If they do NEED to though, to deliver a solid experience, I think that they should. You are not understanding me one bit.

[Polemists]

Yes but you bought MTW 2 even though they had mentioned at one point in time they considered a MP feature, you didn't consider it a CORE part of that game.

I just don't think it's a core part, a side feature at best. I know alot of people have wanted it for a long time, but whether Empire comes out in March or June, I doubt you'd get it, between beta testing, this crowd, and tweaking, winter at best.

[Vuk]

Yes but you bought MTW 2 even though they had mentioned at one point in time they considered a MP feature, you didn't consider it a CORE part of that game.

I just don't think it's a core part, a side feature at best. I know alot of people have wanted it for a long time, but whether Empire comes out in March or June, I doubt you'd get it, between beta testing, this crowd, and tweaking, winter at best.

I am a Medieval historian, and I love medieval combat. THAT is why I bought M2: TW. Because of the setting and time, and only because of the setting and time. I bought kingdoms ONLY because of hotseat (though I ended up loving the damage rebalance).
I am not a big enough fan of the time period to buy Empire for that reason. I am buying Empire for Naval combat, and MP campaign.

[Polemists]

Well maybe, but I just don't think CA is going to add the MP campaign into the main game. They've stated multiple times it's a add on feature and still requires beta testing.

They've announced release date twice, (three times if some of us remeber) and despite all the back lash they still have it as a add on feature.

I think you'll get 3 of those 4, just not the fourth one.