Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Zett]

You don't see anyone putting up elephants, do you?

Surprinsingly bad unit. Very high recruitmencosts, high upkeep, die very fast against on of the cheapest units (Akontistai) and can run amok if not used correctly. That means you get a big Elephant, which needs much care, is very expensive and does a job which (except the frightens infantery/cavalery bonus) every cavaleryman with a xyston could do. You also have the risk, that it turns against your own men (one point more for the xystonboys).

Sure they look awesome and their charge is bigger then the one of a cavalery unit, but the high price makes them only to a "look how much money I have" unit. IMO they are not worth the money you need to recruit them. And I neither mentioned the two turns it takes to recruit them nor the limited recruitment area. But I have to admit it feels good to have the possibility to recruit them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[anubis88]

I must completly dissagree with you. The elephant's are one of the strongest units by far in EB if used correctly. There is no non pike army that can stand their charge.

I always saved lot's of my soldiers lives by using elephants

[machinor]

Any Hellenistic monarch has to have elephants in his army. Period. Of course it is the show-off factor but those beasts are weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare. Have them guarded by a unit of Peltastai who can chase away any enemy skirmishers. As soon as you disposed of them, you can bring the elephants into action. When the main battle lines are engaged, you can just steamroll the enemy line with your elephants. The best way to dispose of enemy elite infantry without getting overly high losses yourself. If the elephant charge will not break them, their line is in disorder and you can move in your elite infantry to chop them up.
Plus they are superior general killers if the enemy general is stupid enough to have his bodyguard unit engage into melee combat.

[Zett]

I still prefer my xystonboys



They are fast and cheap if compared to these "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare". BTW with "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare" you mean killing your own troops, right? Or is it just me who always fails in using them?

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Faramir D'Andunie]

Hippeis Xystophoroi, one gets to love em in KH campaigns.

As for elephants they are a double edged sword able to equally harm both you and your opponents. But such a sharp sword, able to inflict terrible wounds

[Ludens]

They are fast and cheap if compared to these "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare". BTW with "weapons of mass destruction in hellenistic warfare" you mean killing your own troops, right? Or is it just me who always fails in using them?

Elephants are tricky to use indeed. They cost an army and a leg, while cheap skirmisher units can and will kill them if you are careless. However, like chariots, they do have their uses. They are can bulldoze their way through pinned enemy phalanx-formations, tearing them up, destroying their formation and reducing their morale. They also are good at countercharging heavy cavalry. Personally, I use them to precede my heavy cavalry: this disrupts the enemy charging, making them easy pickings for my horsemen. Off course, you do need to keep light infantry and cavalry away, so always keep some skirmisher cavalry at hand (armed with bows or javelins, depending on the opposition). So, in brief:

1) Use elephants to destroy enemy formations and disrupting their charges: don't target a single enemy unit, keep them moving, and let other units do the killing.
2) Elephants work best in combination with light and heavy cavalry. Elephants cover and precede your heavy cavalry, light cavalry covers and precedes your elephants.

Using elephants against non-phalanx heavy infantry is a bit more risky, since these generally have a precursor weapon that can hurt an elephant. However, in my experience, if you keep your elephants moving they generally survive.

[BurningEGO]

Havent gotten my hands into those yet in EB, but THESE were weapons of mass destruction in normal RTW. I remember the countless Phalanx/Hoplites i smashed with them. Only thing that usually survived an Elephant charge were these damned Spartans.

But anyway, Elephants are expensive, yes, but they have devastating effects. Still remember how i usually blitzed Rome in the vanilla version. All these hastati fleeing in terror and awe from my elephants...

Although i must say that i find Elephants far more deadly using "Huge" sized units.

P.S: While your Phalanx line holds the enemy at bay, try a flank attack using your elephants... Nasty man, Nasty.

[antisocialmunky]

I was playing the Romans in custom and gave them two units of elephants. I was using a kinda realistic Macedonian army with some levies in it. The AI managed to punch a hole through a units of levies on the left flank with those elephants. Then they died but I was impressed that it managed to get that right.

No one mentioned my favorite use of elephants: Battering Rams so you don't have to sit for a season.

[machinor]

Using them as battering ram is a bit risky in my opinion. While one of them batters the gate, the others stand still, ideal targets for skirmishers (plus of course it's suicide to try to batter the gate of a city with stone walls with elephants). One has to be extra careful. If I don't want to wait to storm a city, I usually infiltrate it with spies, that's safer.

[Satyros]

Surprinsingly bad unit. Very high recruitmencosts, high upkeep, die very fast against on of the cheapest units (Akontistai) and can run amok if not used correctly. That means you get a big Elephant, which needs much care, is very expensive and does a job which (except the frightens infantery/cavalery bonus) every cavaleryman with a xyston could do. You also have the risk, that it turns against your own men (one point more for the xystonboys).

Sure they look awesome and their charge is bigger then the one of a cavalery unit, but the high price makes them only to a "look how much money I have" unit. IMO they are not worth the money you need to recruit them. And I neither mentioned the two turns it takes to recruit them nor the limited recruitment area. But I have to admit it feels good to have the possibility to recruit them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

I totally disagree good sir .

In my recent campaign a unit of these chaps with the support of a unit of Illyrioi Hippeis and another of Tarantine cavalry butchered ( starting game cavalry units as Epeiros ) every roman they could get their hands on , they creamed slightly tired roman lines , reaching all the way from the flank to the roman general and then proceeding to beat the crap out of him too .

After the last Roman city fell after a 4 year Epeirote offensive ( don't count the early stages of the Epeiros-Romani war defending Taras as at that time the elephants were campaigning in northern Greece , being used mainly as siege weapons ) I had one elephant ( unit str 3 ) left with 2 golden chevrons , and as soon as I retrained them they became a force of doom . I was so happy with them , I even trained another unit for another stack to go campaigning against the Ptolemaioi , in my attempt to keep the allied Seuleukeia in the game . A single unit per stack is more than enough , and definetely worths its money .

So you might want to reconsider , I wouldn't have been able to defeat the Romani without my elephants , that's for sure . No way .

"Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam" : a reality , thanks to Elephantes Indikoi .

Satyros

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Indian elephants got chewed by a unit of asian axemen and tourephoroi in my campaign. Sure they killed about 60-80 soldiers, but my soldiers won the day. It's 13000 mnai to build, isn't it? With those mnais i could build up enough units to kill them all.

[option]

Indian Elephants are all about correct usage. You NEVER have them stand and fight, you start them at the flanks of an enemy battle line while they're engaged with your line and let them rip through the formation all the way to the other flank. The morale effect is also amazing, merely having elephants in the vicinity of a hammer and anvil strike will almost always make the enemy unit rout, and it's easy to start chain routs. Love them.

[Mikhail Mengsk]

Indian Elephants are all about correct usage. You NEVER have them stand and fight, you start them at the flanks of an enemy battle line while they're engaged with your line and let them rip through the formation all the way to the other flank. The morale effect is also amazing, merely having elephants in the vicinity of a hammer and anvil strike will almost always make the enemy unit rout, and it's easy to start chain routs. Love them.

With elephant's cost and upkeep you can use cataphracts or other heavy cavalries. You'll have a much more versatile force. They simply aren't cost-effective.

[Watchman]

Matter of taste. Plus, most factions don't get cataphracts either so meh.

[Maion Maroneios]

Indeed, it is a matter of taste. When used correctly, elephants can be a war-winning force. They scare enemy infantry and cavalry, they have a huge morale impact upon the enemy because of their high killing ratio when charging an enemy line, plus they can stand their own for quite some time.

But speaking of elephants, I believe they were more or less like nuclear weapons of our time. That's a very rough analogy, but let me explain it; Even though some nations may have had elephants in their disposal, they weren't always used because of the dangers that come with using them on the battlefield. That's something everyone who had experience with elephant warfare knew as a fact. But being able to afford to train and feed a considerable number of elephants, meant that the nation was very powerful and not to be taken too lightly. More or less like a symbol of their military prowess. Same as nuclear weapons nowdays. The USA have nuclear weapons in their disposal, though I doubt it if they are ever going to use them because of the destruction if will cause and which in turn might affect them directly or indirectly as well. But just having the techonolgy and funds to make and maintain such weapons, is a symbol of their high military, economical and technological level.

Maion

[Ca Putt]

I just had a hard fight against Phyrros als the KH my army was largely composed of levy hoplites and I had almost no cavalry the AI managed to keep my Hippakontistai away from their Elephants and they routed my only unit of proper hoplites and one of my ekdromoi without taking any losses. not even my Peltastai could bring them down :( in the end they were killed by a tired unit of Hoplitai Haploi with only taking very few casulties(ok they were hurt from the peltasts but the peltasts did not kill one) but once the elephants were dead the bulk of the Epirote Army routed or were routed by the remains of my cavalry. I won the battle and Phyrros fell on the battlefield like the lion share of his troops. Still the League of the Hellens lost many sons that day.
imo those Levy hoplites should be Picked into the ranks of the Epilektoi :DDD but unfortunately I can't train them yet :(

conclusion: Hoplitai Haploi surprisingly Awesome^^
Indian Elephants Deadly scary almost Immortal but extremely unreliable. I like units that I can trust thus troops that only rout/die if you expect it. that's basically why I play KH and Sweboz^^.