Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[Cullhwch]

Yeah, playing on Very Hard is much more difficult when you're playing a melee-based faction. The +7 bonus given to enemy defense is only applied to defensive skill, so your arrows still do full damage on Very Hard mode. Without horse archers you'll just get stomped.

[soup_alex]

This is basically what you are dealing with:

Jpeg artefacts? ~:P

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

(If you're editing with Paint, try saving as portable network graphics because the default .jpg compression is atrocious)

...and can we leave off the Prodromoi! They are surely better than my bloody Ezra'him Ponnim, at least, and I've discovered that even they have a role (though not against anything with a missile weapon, as some suggest: they work wonders against Illyrian pirates, though)

My next candidate for surprisingly bad unit would have to be either Dorkim Balearim; who despite having a respectable profile comparable to Iberi Caetrati, lack the armour-piercing crunch that can be critical; or every locally-recruitable Italian unit available to me (excepting Samnite Heavies). Why have Campanian Cavalry when you can get Iberian or Numidian?

[Tolg]

Real men only play the hardest mode. Sure, the AI units get some bonus, but even so battle generally speaking is hell easy.

You're free to play on VH, but stop insulting those who prefer it the way it is supposed to be played.

Also most of the people here (or at least many) use house rules to male the game more difficult without making it unrealistic.

[Mooks]

I think the people insulting the elephants dont know how to properly use them. They arent meant for every battle.

[Hax]

Hetairoi Aspidophoroi


These guys absolutely ROCKED!

I used them against Pyrrhos in the epic battle that decided the fate of Hellas, and they did an amazing job at routing the javelins, routed and chased the skirmishers on the Pyrrhic side and then crashed into the rear of the phalanx. I love them, I love them, I love them! <3

[Chloe]

The Scutarii are really tough, and so are the ambakaro elite cavalry, I just kicked Carthage out of Spain with those!
EDIT: The Celtic Lesser Kings are also pretty darn cool:D

[anubis88]

By the way. Playing VH battles with a faction such as carthage or seleucia or the romans is no problem. Try playing VH as the Sweboz or Aedui or the casse for that mather, It will be a whole other story when you can't train uber units and your opponents units are stronger by themselves.

I also played on VH/VH but when i faced horse archer armies they beated the crap out of me, and i couldn't even hurt them.

My surprisingly good unit must be the Leuce Epos. They're preety decent medium cavalry, and can change many battle outcoms between barbarian armies

[desert]

To understand my screenshot you have to watch Braveheart.

And it looks bad because it was a really small picture that I stretched out to 300% of it's original size.

[BurningEGO]

You're free to play on VH, but stop insulting those who prefer it the way it is supposed to be played.

Also most of the people here (or at least many) use house rules to male the game more difficult without making it unrealistic.

Hey, i wasnt insulting. Just joking.

Sorry if you felt offended, anyway.

Yeah, playing on Very Hard is much more difficult when you're playing a melee-based faction.

I only play melee based factions.

The trick is letting your phalanx engage the enemy, while going around with cavalry or with some elite infantry unit and rout them one by one (or routing them all at the same time if you are capable of).

The only problem i have had, was when facing terribly good generals, or when facing these naked wild men. The naked men simply fights to the last man, except in certain ocasions, and under a good general troops get a hell of a morale bonus.

Also one should remember that killing the general causes a big, big morale drop to the enemy. All my battles are won due to morale. I will try to fraps one "total rout" of mine one of these days. When the enemy is tired, and one or more of their divisions are fleeing, i usually charge all my men, even archers, and cause everyone to flee in panick due to awesome numbers.

I always win river battles like that. The proximity between each enemy division is huge and everyone's morale will be affected.

P.S: i did see braveheard but i dont understand that picture. Can you post the smaller picture then please?

[antisocialmunky]

Archers are awesome for the 'go chase this' mission when you need your heavies to roll up the flank.

[desert]

Gosh, having to explain this just ruins the joke!

Remember in Braveheart when Gibson says that William Wallace can shoot fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lighning from his "arse"?

[Zett]

I think the people insulting the elephants dont know how to properly use them. They arent meant for every battle.

No one insulted them. Many peaple said that they are good and only a few (including me, perhaps just me...) said that they are bad, but I also admitted that they have some good points. But I didn't insulted them. If it sounds like a insult for you, I will apologize. But IMO they are too expensive for that what you get from them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[soup_alex]

To understand my screenshot you have to watch Braveheart.

Aw, do I have to?

Remember in Braveheart when Gibson says that William Wallace can shoot fireballs from his eyes and bolts of lighning from his "arse"?

Err, no. Sorry!
My memories of "Braveheart" are now limited to the tie-in PC game ("ooh-keiyh") and infrequent references in achewood.

[Fluvius Camillus]

The trick is letting your phalanx engage the enemy, while going around with cavalry or with some elite infantry unit and rout them one by one (or routing them all at the same time if you are capable of).

The only problem i have had, was when facing terribly good generals, or when facing these naked wild men. The naked men simply fights to the last man, except in certain ocasions, and under a good general troops get a hell of a morale bonus.

Also one should remember that killing the general causes a big, big morale drop to the enemy. All my battles are won due to morale. I will try to fraps one "total rout" of mine one of these days. When the enemy is tired, and one or more of their divisions are fleeing, i usually charge all my men, even archers, and cause everyone to flee in panick due to awesome numbers.

I always win river battles like that. The proximity between each enemy division is huge and everyone's morale will be affected.

P.S: i did see braveheard but i dont understand that picture. Can you post the smaller picture then please?

I knew I was not the only one who played like this! I totally agree, the AI really sucks at guarding his general! Two full cavalry groups are usually enough to kill him (after some charges). This really was proven at my Epeiros campaign. I managed to kill THREE baktrian generals with a group of 25 bodyguards and two groups of mercenary horse archers, while I was totally outnumbered by him. Those three groups were all I had, he had a full stack army. I took three generals (!!!!) with me to my unavoidable grave!

You'r tactic sounds very familiar with mine, who cares if the enemy infantry has +7 whatever, if you have them pinned down by phalanghlites and a xyston/kontos using cavalry detachment charges their rear. Really, only the hardest men or wall battles (which I avoid) are fought to the very end. After my enemy starts routing the rest of the battle is just a chain reaction of routs!

About the wild men, just charge them from all sides with heavy cavalry, or shoot 'm to pieces. They have no fighting spears so they are not extremely good at charge blocking. And skin does not really block arrows or stones

Nice to hear someone who uses the same tactics!

[soup_alex]

It's starting to sound as though VH battle difficulty is only really tenable if your chosen faction has access to excellent missile troops and/or large phalanges.

[LordCurlyton]

Basically correct. Phalanxes and HAs are just too powerful in general in RTW; even EB couldn't fix that. Of course, in vanilla M2TW the "spear wall" is total crap; it stops all of jack didley, so CA overcompensated there.

[Fluvius Camillus]

Basically correct. Phalanxes and HAs are just too powerful in general in RTW; even EB couldn't fix that. Of course, in vanilla M2TW the "spear wall" is total crap; it stops all of jack didley, so CA overcompensated there.

Overpowered? I think that if a Seleucid general can just gradually walk through the phalanx I think it is underpowered. If you as a general can just walk through phalanx instead of being skerwered after the first stings, I don't actually think the phalanx is overpowered and if it is too overpowered, what makes it so unrealistic more powerful?

[BurningEGO]

I agree. In normal RTW, phalanxes WERE overpowered. I remember dropping a few near the city plaza and routing entire armies that way. Only Parthian Kataphrats were able to get through.

In EB, things are diferent. After a good while, and IF the enemy drops a crapload of men into a single point, the phalanx will eventually be broken (sometimes it doesnt even require a good quantity of men). That, or if a heavy cavalry unit charges through. Their armor points is terribly huge and even the phalanx cant kill them that fast.

About the wild men, just charge them from all sides with heavy cavalry, or shoot 'm to pieces. They have no fighting spears so they are not extremely good at charge blocking. And skin does not really block arrows or stones

Yeah i know, but sometimes i am unable to do such. Sometimes my archers are busy dealing with something else, and then the naked men manage to get engaged with some other troop of mine. I usually attack them from all sides but they keep on fighting.

Anyway about the elephants. I usually disband them at the start of my Epirus campaign, but this time i decided i would not. In a single HUGE battle against Macedonia, my elephants charged a division of Hippeis Thessalikoi and destroyed them all till they fled. They then charged an Hoplite unit, which quickly fled. Then i used them to charge yet another Hoplite unit (head to head), and a Phalanx unit from behind. They caused terrible casualties on my enemy, and i lost only 2 elephants!

They are expensive, yes, but they are battle winning troops. Damn, i just wish i could get my hands into these heavily armored bastards. Would make my army last for a very long time during these long campaigns in foreign territory since their armor rocks.

Curious stuff though, how did Pyrrhus get his hands in Elephants? If they are really indian ones, they came a LONG way. Also, how do you transport Elephants across the sea? Did the boats of that age permit such weight?

[desert]

There was a thread a month ago that has a link to Pyrrhus's elephants.

Basically, they were elephants that Alexander captured/received in India and were passed down through the successors until they reached Pyrrhus.

[Cute Wolf]

Untowered elephants are bad.... why did the Carthies are soo dumb to let their elephants didn't carry the tower it deserve?

at least the archers can kill some couple of skirmishers on the run...

[Banzai!]

Dude! Elephants don't cause friendly damage. So you are supposed to send in the elephants after your main line has engaged, at which point most of the enemy skirmishers should be stuck in melee with your troops. As long as they don't get hit by javs elephants are virtually invulnerable.

[LordCurlyton]

Actually, if you are super-heavy cav and feel the urge to charge a phalanx head-on, your best bet is probably to "walk in slowly". Most of the kills a spear/phalanx unit would get would likely be the initial impact of cav onto spear/pike. Negate the suicide part and your ultra-heavy armor gives you a good chance of being able to make it in closer since the pikemen/spears can only apply one human's worth of force to each strike instead of human + charging horse. That still doesn't make it smart to do so, and every time the AI tries that tactic at best they usually only get a trickle going, which are then swiftly overwhelmed by numerous phalangites.
Even then, a phalanx facing non-phalanx infantry in EB is still basically invincible. I have never once lost or even suffered major casualties from a non-phalanx infantry unit when pitting a phalanx of any quality against it. At best the non-phalanx can only hope to tire them out and hope their morale wavers, something which has happened before to me when I couldn't break the flanks quickly enough.
Its especially gratifying to watch Gaesetae or Tindanotae waste themselves on pikes.
The thing with pikes is that are basically a very cumbersome, unwieldy weapon. That's why the Galatians used their shortswordsmen to go under the pikes and get in close (to which pike users did teach new tactics to deal with that, obviously). Sadly, EB is unable to simulate that sort of "getting close". An infantry (and most cavalry) unit hits the front, it STAYS in the front, far away from the troops. The crapload of enemies that need to be dropped in a single point is far too counterproductive to be useful; I'll happily let them and encircle their troops with my unengaged phalanxes. Granted, on VH the number probably drops somewhat but is likely to still be far more than is useful.
And, of course, arrows can't have a lethality other than 1, making every arrow hit at least thrice as deadly as every hit from a xyston/kontos. If you are finding VH/VH the only way to challenge yourself, then play Sweboz (or better, Casse) on that difficulty and see whether you keep the same opinion. Heck, even Rome after it enters mid- to late-game and has to go up against the pumped up phalanxes of the Hellenes.
I'll readily admit, I find H/M to be the most enjoyable as you can still reason with the AI at times in diplomacy, the AI still hires mercenaries, and spawned Eleutheroi stacks will still on occasion besiege your cities. I can't play harder battle difficulties not through inability but because I hate "artificial" challenge boosters. I'd gladly play harder battle difficulty if each level unlocked tougher AI algorithms to face, but alas it is just stat boosting. Incidentally, this is why I loved the Galactic Civilization games since their more difficult levels actually unlocked more complex AI.

[antisocialmunky]

If you form high moral heavily armored infantry into columns and order them to run through a phalanx, it can work but you need to focus a ton of mass at a single point - something only the Romans can really do.

[Cute Wolf]

Silly answer against heavy cavalry charging your phalanx.....

If your enemy plays a lot (or even all) of HC army, you just need to form a box of pikes, with archers inside... and watch the enemy suicide before your pikes...

*. Borrowed from Vanilla greek cities tactic...

[A Very Super Market]

Do not even get me started on vanilla phalanxes. I basically made a wall, and was invincible for the rest of the game. NO ONE could get through, the Horse Archers ran out of arrows after killing 10 guys (And losing a lot more from my mercs) and I eventually added artillery, which just destroyed everything before it even got to my 3 gold chevron Spartans. But I couldn't attack anyone at all

[Dutchhoplite]

These guys:



I use them in my Casse campaign but they never do what i expect of them

[Fluvius Camillus]

Actually, if you are super-heavy cav and feel the urge to charge a phalanx head-on, your best bet is probably to "walk in slowly". Most of the kills a spear/phalanx unit would get would likely be the initial impact of cav onto spear/pike. Negate the suicide part and your ultra-heavy armor gives you a good chance of being able to make it in closer since the pikemen/spears can only apply one human's worth of force to each strike instead of human + charging horse. That still doesn't make it smart to do so, and every time the AI tries that tactic at best they usually only get a trickle going, which are then swiftly overwhelmed by numerous phalangites.
Even then, a phalanx facing non-phalanx infantry in EB is still basically invincible. I have never once lost or even suffered major casualties from a non-phalanx infantry unit when pitting a phalanx of any quality against it. At best the non-phalanx can only hope to tire them out and hope their morale wavers, something which has happened before to me when I couldn't break the flanks quickly enough.
Its especially gratifying to watch Gaesetae or Tindanotae waste themselves on pikes.
The thing with pikes is that are basically a very cumbersome, unwieldy weapon. That's why the Galatians used their shortswordsmen to go under the pikes and get in close (to which pike users did teach new tactics to deal with that, obviously). Sadly, EB is unable to simulate that sort of "getting close". An infantry (and most cavalry) unit hits the front, it STAYS in the front, far away from the troops. The crapload of enemies that need to be dropped in a single point is far too counterproductive to be useful; I'll happily let them and encircle their troops with my unengaged phalanxes. Granted, on VH the number probably drops somewhat but is likely to still be far more than is useful.
And, of course, arrows can't have a lethality other than 1, making every arrow hit at least thrice as deadly as every hit from a xyston/kontos. If you are finding VH/VH the only way to challenge yourself, then play Sweboz (or better, Casse) on that difficulty and see whether you keep the same opinion. Heck, even Rome after it enters mid- to late-game and has to go up against the pumped up phalanxes of the Hellenes.
I'll readily admit, I find H/M to be the most enjoyable as you can still reason with the AI at times in diplomacy, the AI still hires mercenaries, and spawned Eleutheroi stacks will still on occasion besiege your cities. I can't play harder battle difficulties not through inability but because I hate "artificial" challenge boosters. I'd gladly play harder battle difficulty if each level unlocked tougher AI algorithms to face, but alas it is just stat boosting. Incidentally, this is why I loved the Galactic Civilization games since their more difficult levels actually unlocked more complex AI.

Yes but extremely heavy cavalry is supposed to survive a head on charge in the phalanx. Do this with hellenic cataphracts vs pantodapoi phalanx and they'll charge through them. I think that is supposed to happen, but a single general gradually walking through seems pretty unrealistic to me. But really, what is so unrealistic about infantry not breaching the pikes? Just imagine, 120 people, holding extremely long spears poking all in your direction from a fortified position, I don't really see how you should get through then.

About the difficulty, I don't always play VH/VH, on my Pontos campaign for example I am trying H/H, to let the AI have some bonuses and I heard that Hard campaign only makes the AI less aggressive

I agree. In normal RTW, phalanxes WERE overpowered. I remember dropping a few near the city plaza and routing entire armies that way. Only Parthian Kataphrats were able to get through.

If your enemy plays a lot (or even all) of HC army, you just need to form a box of pikes, with archers inside... and watch the enemy suicide before your pikes...

*. Borrowed from Vanilla greek cities tactic...

Oh how I love the box formation, saved cities from the house of bruttii/scipii with that!

These guys:



I use them in my Casse campaign but they never do what i expect of them

Hmm, they usually do when I use them. Just another mercenary group which can come in quite handy or hold the line.

[Mooks]

No one insulted them. Many peaple said that they are good and only a few (including me, perhaps just me...) said that they are bad, but I also admitted that they have some good points. But I didn't insulted them. If it sounds like a insult for you, I will apologize. But IMO they are too expensive for that what you get from them.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Apologize? I wouldnt accept it, since you have nothing to apologize for. And this here is the internet, no need to be so polite.

Elephants are well worth it (Unless as garrisons). They are able to destroy both phalanx and Close combat troops. Sometimes though they do peform very poorly.

--

Hellenic factions arent "Melee" based factions in my book. Dacians, sweboz, the gauls are. Its ridiculously easy winning with a phalanx army and most of the troops dont really get in "Hand to hand" combat but just push their stick a few feet foward and repeat.

Granted, I despise phalanx troops though. Dont understand how someone can have fun with them.

[richardfburton]

I find that elephants if used correctly are an awesome unit well worth their cost. They can be decisive in a battle. If the enemy has skirmishers, especially javelins, then these must be destroyed before sending in the elephants. Likewise, they are at their most effective when taking pinned units in the flank or in the rear, backed up if needed by flanking infantry and cavalry to ensure that units that rout are not able to rally.

[Fluvius Camillus]

I find that elephants if used correctly are an awesome unit well worth their cost. They can be decisive in a battle. If the enemy has skirmishers, especially javelins, then these must be destroyed before sending in the elephants. Likewise, they are at their most effective when taking pinned units in the flank or in the rear, backed up if needed by flanking infantry and cavalry to ensure that units that rout are not able to rally.

Imagine your phalanx is pinned down with enemy phalanx and the enemy morale is not really high. Well I know how it feels if you charge the enemy phalanx from the back with elephants then, it is awesome and elephants are fantastic units!

"It's raining men"