Is Barack Hussien Obama purposely trying to destroy the US economy?

[seireikhaan]

Cut taxes to stimulate investment - capital spending and corporate income taxes. This and other measures to increase incentives to invest. I am skeptical of the benefits of income tax cuts to middle and lower class brackets.

Was not about 300 billion of the stimulus some form of tax cut?

Ensure credit in the banks by giving out the money with explicit contracts and guarantees from the banks that they would open the lines of credit.

Isn't that a bit... socialist?

I am unconvinced huge amounts of money spent by the government outside of this will do much good. It didn't in the US in the 30s or in Japan in the 90s. Of course, the lesson the Keynesians take from this always seems to be that we didn't spend enough. Though of course Japan did get out of the doldrums, and we are spending relatively significantly less than they did in the 90s, so I am scornful of their opinions, as is my wont.

Well, let's keep a few things in mind. First, some of FDR's first New Deal policies weren't actually Keynesian, but were undoubtedly a bad idea in retrospect- price locking, price floors, etc... Assuming, of course, that didn't somehow find itself into this bill. As for Japan's spending, I believe part of the problem was that the money often took ages to get through to the economy, such as roads that took 6 years to build and the like. As well, I seem to recall(though I could be wrong), that Japan actually started pulling itself out of its slump when it jacked the deficit up even higher than they already had. Now, is this causation, or just correlation?

I don't see why we need to rework our standard of living. As for 'too big to fail' - that's a myth. I believe the effects of trying to save dying companies are worse than simply letting them die. We should have let those lousy banks fail. Instead we spent hundreds of billions for nothing.

Amen.

However, I still approve of this particular stimulus bill, for a couple reasons. (with the giant caveat, if spending is done in a timely, efficient manner)

1) Infrastructure. I approve heartily of bettering the country's infrastructure, particularly energy grids and energy sources.
2) Tax cuts- even if temporary, the tax cuts are well needed.

[Xiahou]

However, I still approve of this particular stimulus bill, for a couple reasons. (with the giant caveat, if spending is done in a timely, efficient manner)

1) Infrastructure. I approve heartily of bettering the country's infrastructure, particularly energy grids and energy sources.
2) Tax cuts- even if temporary, the tax cuts are well needed.

We could certainly stand to upgrade our power grid- but what's in this bill to facilitate it? All I've heard about is money to extend the power grid to reach wind farms and other "green" sources. Electricity demands are going to continue to increase, and our decades old transmission lines can only handle so much.

[Meneldil]

Well, if Americans actually think scenes like this and this are preferable to relaxing in a train that takes you to where you want to go, then I don't really know what to say.
I know in certain areas that don't have a very dense population trains don't make sense but I doubt they want to connect swamp village one in Alabama with desert tent three in Texas.

You clearly don't understand the issue here: High speed trains are socialists. They are a way to enforce Barack Hussein Ben Obama's socialist (or rather, communist, that's where Dave made a mistake) agenda.
Furthermore, it is well known that train drivers are more often than not pinko leftist multicultural muslim terrorists.

The free-market didn't fail, a badly regulated free-market failed. America will fix the regulation (at least better than it was), and will continue to out-grow and outperform europe for the forseeable future.

Wut? Do I need to link you some GDP, HDI or other Oecd figures? Europe is already outgrowing the US, despite the 12 new rather poor (that's an understatement) members.

[Furunculus]

Wut? Do I need to link you some GDP, HDI or other Oecd figures? Europe is already outgrowing the US, despite the 12 new rather poor (that's an understatement) members.

.............. which is where all that growth is coming from, and who are the worst hit by the current crisis.

[rasoforos]

Yes the U.S is such a commie state right now. Already Lenin statues are being erected allover the place, everyone calls eachother comrade and has started growing a beard (indeed even the women)!

Get serious people. Isn't 20 years post cold war enough to give up believing to McCarthy?

The U.S, like every other western country needs to adopt a mixed economy model (Indeed there is no pure capitalism nor any serious economy supports such a contraption) and introduce controls and welfare elements. Being reluctant to do this, the U.S was forced into the blitzkrieg economical readjustment that we are seeing today. Let mistakes past become lessons learnt.

[LittleGrizzly]

Yes, you allow failure. When the people bought more house than they should of, you let them become homeless. When the banks made loans that they should not have to people who have a history of bad credit and are nothing more than lofelong losers, you let them go bankrupt. Those who have lived outside of their means and played Russian Roullete with their retirement in the stock market, you let the bullet pass through their skull. Why should I have to pay for everyone else's f-up? Bush was an idiot with the first bail out and his ridiculous spending. Obama is putting the nail into the coffin of personal responsibilty. All we are doing is causing more pain. We should have, before all the stimulus BS, was allow failure and this issue would be over a lot sonner.

Hell now this i can't get behind, i see no tin foil hats up to this point and i even think i agree, though im fully behind infrastructure building as part of the stimulus (high speed trains FTW!) i just don't really see why private corporations deserve this money, most western nations bend over backwards to have these companies in our countrys and then when things go badly were supposed to give them money...

Ask yourself.. how many corporations would bail out the goverment/country...

We are continueing the problem and only making ourselves more and more dependent on government assistance. People can call me nuts or a tin foil hat wearer, I don't care. This is his plan and its going to work because there are enough people who will believe the media and have been educated (indoctornated) into the belief that the government knows whats best. Its a bloodless revolution an no one cares because they've drank the kool aide...

I have to disagree here, i have heard the theory before (haven't got a clue where) that the republicans built up such a huge debt so that a future goverment would have no choice but to get rid of welfare programs in order to have a chance of paying such a debt...

Building up huge debts is definetly not going to advance the welfare state, the goverment will continue to build up huge defecits until spending has to be cut drastically, then which is the goverment going to cut... military or welfare, in a country like USA i would imagine it would much more likely be the latter....

[Furunculus]

Hell now this i can't get behind, i see no tin foil hats up to this point and i even think i agree, though im fully behind infrastructure building as part of the stimulus (high speed trains FTW!) i just don't really see why private corporations deserve this money, most western nations bend over backwards to have these companies in our countrys and then when things go badly were supposed to give them money...

Ask yourself.. how many corporations would bail out the goverment/country...

you understand the concept of the moral hazard.................?

[LittleGrizzly]

Europeans *do* love Barack Obama so he must be a socialist, right?

People are just very happy for the change from the last guy, most wouldn't really want his policys in thier country...

you understand the concept of the moral hazard.................?

Yes.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Yes the U.S is such a commie state right now. Already Lenin statues are being erected allover the place, everyone calls eachother comrade and has started growing a beard (indeed even the women)!

Get serious people. Isn't 20 years post cold war enough to give up believing to McCarthy?

The U.S, like every other western country needs to adopt a mixed economy model (Indeed there is no pure capitalism nor any serious economy supports such a contraption) and introduce controls and welfare elements. Being reluctant to do this, the U.S was forced into the blitzkrieg economical readjustment that we are seeing today. Let mistakes past become lessons learnt.

You're not terribly familiar with the economic realities in the US, are you?

We have welfare and lots of government regulations over the economy. Indeed, it was federal policies aimed at increasing home ownership and the reckless loans given by the semi-governmental financial institutions Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that caused most of the underlying problems.

Being too laissez faire has nothing to do with this.

CR

[Ironside]

Unfortunately, we don't have a control experiment to check against. We tend to interpret the Great Depression through our own beliefs. I don't know of a major economy that has tried to step away entirely and let the whole thing go to the wall to see what happens, but maybe a keener student of economics can illuminate.

Subject to the caveat noted above, I don't disagree. But the effect of letting the banks go bust is not measurable given the nature of the over-reliance on financial services for the latest spurt of growth. I think you are optimistic to think that such a go-to-the-wall philosophy wouldn't hugely impact on standards of living. If I understand it, the significant moment propelling the sharp downturn was the hands-off decision on Lehman Brothers.

While I can't really illuminate what it means, banking and thus a better credit flow has been vital for the growth of the "modern" economy for about 800 years (I might be a bit off on dates, but the riches of the templars came through banking). Risking a cascade effect that takes out most of the banking system would then probably be extremely bad.

Well, lots of corporations are in danger of losing lots of money. Corporate tax cuts let them keep more money, so the business is healthier. Capital gains tax cuts encourage stock market investment.

That's a bigger cut of a smaller pie (companies get taxes on thier profit). I recall the opposite argument when tax cuts are mentioned. And stock market investments? They would then be built on nothing concrete, thus having market bubbles tendencies (that might survive if the stimulus is enough to make the consumption grow again though).

According to some theories, tax cuts and burrowing have the same effect in terms of deficits. The difference is how the money you spend/give back to people affects the economy. This new stimulus, IIRC, offers great new amounts of funds to welfare and makes it easier for people to get on welfare.

As a temporary action it makes sence, people will feel slightly more secure and thus spending more. And the people that end up on welfare as the get fired atm can steel maintain some levels of spending.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

True getting them as permanent welfare recivers would be bad, but increased welfare during hard times are logical, it's in fact intended. Getting them off welfare when the times improves are intended as well though.

I never really gotten they idea that making unemployed dirt poor will somehow make them create work, I mean you only need to look at eastern Europe to see that the concept if flawed and that other factors are much more influencal.

You're not terribly familiar with the economic realities in the US, are you?

We have welfare and lots of government regulations over the economy. Indeed, it was federal policies aimed at increasing home ownership and the reckless loans given by the semi-governmental financial institutions Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac that caused most of the underlying problems.

Being too laissez faire has nothing to do with this.

CR

Actually it does. If you haven't missed it, the bubble of the US house market were the catalyst and not the cause of the current situation. It viewed the flaw of the whole system (eternal growth).

[gaelic cowboy]

Dev Dave trust me you dont want to live in a country where your ideas are are put into action.

[Yoyoma1910]

What we need to do is start a war between some sneetches, which can all profiteer from.



Especially amongst the ones with bellies with stars, and the ones with none upon thars.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Dev Dave trust me you dont want to live in a country where your ideas are are put into action.

Don't worry, we'll burn this country to the ground before we lower government intervention.

[woad&fangs]

I must say that I have a bit more confidance in the stimulus plan after watching Obama give his speech last night. The investment in science, infrastructure, and education is long overdo anyways. It also seemed like he truly is thinking long term and already making plans about how to deal with the debt.

However, I did turn it off before he finished his whole speech. Pelosi jumping up and applauding like a neurotic hamster every 2 minutes became very annoying

[Xiahou]

I must say that I have a bit more confidance in the stimulus plan after watching Obama give his speech last night. The investment in science, infrastructure, and education is long overdo anyways. It also seemed like he truly is thinking long term and already making plans about how to deal with the debt.

That's all standard claptrap anyhow. Sure, he delivered it well- but it still seemed pretty empty. Take education- we've been pouring cash into it for decades. How is throwing more money at the problem going to fix anything?

[CountArach]

This thread confirms my suspicions that Dev Dave is a master satirist. Well done sir.