citizens of EU member states - what do you think of galileo GPS competitor?

[LittleGrizzly]

we don't have more clout if we don't agree with the consensus opinion on the continent.

With the Iraq war we slightly favoured continent's opinion to USA's, but our elected officials took us in... obviously we could disagree on things, but what if newcastle was deadly against the iraq war... should it break off and be able to have its own say... or should it stay part of a larger collective for mutual benefit and more clout but having to live with differences of opinion...

that is a very sad lack of confidence in your nation

Its the politicians i have the lack of confidence in... public just about agreed with me on this one...

bunch of unelected quangocrats

I don't now who you refer too but most are elected are at least chosen by elected officials...

make your countries decisions for you.

Its not quite like that, It is us making our desicions, kinda of like how the british goverment tells every part of britian what to do but we contribute by choosing the goverment that tells us what to do, same principle applies...

[Furunculus]

we don't have more clout if we don't agree with the consensus opinion on the continent.

With the Iraq war we slightly favoured continent's opinion to USA's, but our elected officials took us in... obviously we could disagree on things, but what if newcastle was deadly against the iraq war... should it break off and be able to have its own say... or should it stay part of a larger collective for mutual benefit and more clout but having to live with differences of opinion...

bunch of unelected quangocrats

I don't now who you refer too but most are elected are at least chosen by elected officials...

i go with the Gov't on this one, not in that i agree, but that i accept we elect a gov't to make tough decisions for us. do you want apple pie? *cries of yes* do you want dead soldiers? *cries of no*

do you want a consensus of euro nations deciding your foreign policy for you?

[LittleGrizzly]

but that i accept we elect a gov't to make tough decisions for us.

do you want a consensus of euro nations deciding your foreign policy for you?

And nothing would be different with an EU goverment, majority (basically) rules and if your opinion is different try and change it... but don't try to claim that somehow we would be ruled from abroad anymore than newcastle is ruled from london... if we were going to be following EU policy without any representation you would have a point..

i seem to remember people said there could never be another world war after the first................

Your much older than i thought

The situation in Europe was vastly different to the situation now, no country within the eu would attack, they are joining together if anything, so it would have to be a more distant power... USA have capability but i really don't ever see that happening... or at least in my lifetime... Russia ? China ? Firstly theres not really much good motive for any big power to attempt to take over britian, it would certainly annoy the rest of the eu for one, there are much easier less well connected country's to go for.

BTW I wasn't advocating no military spending, i was arguing that calling it a first duty given our geo political situation is wrong imo

I think the budget could use a little trim though... of course we have to see out of military commitments first..

[Furunculus]

but that i accept we elect a gov't to make tough decisions for us.

do you want a consensus of euro nations deciding your foreign policy for you?

And nothing would be different with an EU goverment, majority (basically) rules and if your opinion is different try and change it... but don't try to claim that somehow we would be ruled from abroad anymore than newcastle is ruled from london... if we were going to be following EU policy without any representation you would have a point..

but that is exactly what i do argue.

the foundation of the nation state is the community of spirit, that shared culture which allows you to accept the decisions made in your name. blah blah blah*........ to cut a long story short; that does not exist in europe.

so yes, that is exactly what i am saying, it would be a very different thing for me to happily abide by the decisions of europe, there would be no quicker way to make a terrorist of me.







* this is democracy 101, explained by me here too many times for me to bother typing out again

[LittleGrizzly]

the foundation of the nation state is the community of spirit, that shared culture which allows you to accept the decisions made in your name. blah blah blah*........

You look at people living in different extremes in britian, from city dwellers to people living on remote scottish islands, if you count Gaelic and Welsh we don't even share a common language, about the only uniform thing i see is the currency and goverment, which we would have in common in europe if we joing and futher integrated... Our city dwellers would have more in common with europe's city dwellers than our rural folk and the same applies to our rural folk having more in common with european rural folk. Overall we seem to have slightly different political views but they aren't hugely different to majority european opinion....*

*or as i like to call it the newcastle choice... they can control thier own policy completely but have very little effect, so join the rest of britian to have more effect...

it would be a very different thing for me to happily abide by the decisions of europe, there would be no quicker way to make a terrorist of me.

thats kind of creepy...

[Furunculus]

the foundation of the nation state is the community of spirit, that shared culture which allows you to accept the decisions made in your name. blah blah blah*........

You look at people living in different extremes in britian, from city dwellers to people living on remote scottish islands, if you count Gaelic and Welsh we don't even share a common language, about the only uniform thing i see is the currency and goverment, which we would have in common in europe if we joing and futher integrated... Our city dwellers would have more in common with europe's city dwellers than our rural folk and the same applies to our rural folk having more in common with european rural folk. Overall we seem to have slightly different political views but they aren't hugely different to majority european opinion....*

*or as i like to call it the newcastle choice... they can control thier own policy completely but have very little effect, so join the rest of britian to have more effect...

it would be a very different thing for me to happily abide by the decisions of europe, there would be no quicker way to make a terrorist of me.

thats kind of creepy...

that simply has no bearing in reality.
there is far more that binds us as a nation than divides us through demographic differences.


Why? if i am no longer governed by those whose decisions i can accept then i have two choices:
1) learn to live with it (why should I, its my country)
2) fight against it (to re-install governance of my country, by my country, for my country)


It would seem you might be best served by accepting membership of Husar's merry little band of one-world-government groupies.
However, while i can understand it from him coming from a part of the western world that has been governed in a totally dysfunctional manner for the last hundred years, i am a little surprised that you would take that position.

[Husar]

do you want a consensus of euro nations deciding your foreign policy for you?

A nation is just a subdivision of a continent state similar to how in the middle ages(around 1800-2100) certain regions or countries were subdisvisions of nation states.
So basically what you elected leaders in the US decide is your policy and you are the one to decide it with your vote just like in the old nation states.
Don't pretend to have anything like referendums and also note that your politicians who you voted into office are among the ones pushing this, so if politicians of nation states always do what you want and is in your best interest then surely the EU is what you want.
If you're now going to say you didn't vote for the current government and do not agree with what they do then how is that going to be any better or worse in the EU?

To me it's all the same mess, just on a different level.

[Furunculus]

i make the distinction that while we elect a government to act in our name, and agree to abide by and accept the consequence of those decisions, if the gov't wishes to give away the power granted to it by the by the people then it should ask our permission directly via referendum, or a general election made on that specific platform.
we give of our authority to the gov't in order that they may act in our name, not so that they may give away that authority to some unknown third party.

and the sovereign nation state produces a better result than the EU because it is MY government, formed from people with whom i have a shared history, which informs the many shared values and cultural norms, and ultimately leads to a similar world-view and thus decision making process. because of this I consent to be governed by my peers, and most importantly i accept the consequences of the actions taken in my name.

OT - you are the second person in recent times to mistake me for a yank, why is that?

[rory_20_uk]

The government is doing its best to undermine that shared identity, placing no one way of life above another (OK, all above the English way as to support English / British would be of course deeply offensive to everyone else and we wouldn't want that, would we?).

The EU is almost totally divorced from individuals. But having said that, so is Westminster.

[Furunculus]

what i'd like to know is if the one world government types even consider my reasoning a rational basis from which to accept governance, whether they agree with it or not?

[LittleGrizzly]

and while you may think that i fear you will find few people rallying behind your call for a post-sovereign world order.

I don't think many people do want one world goverment...

because it is MY government, formed from people with whom i have a shared history, which informs the many shared values and cultural norms, and ultimately leads to a similar world-view and thus decision
making process.

I don't see what's any majorly different about ours and europeans, of course there are slight differences but you can't tell me that someone living in london has more in common with some farmer loiving right at the top of scotland than someone living in paris...

because of this I consent to be governed by my peers, and most importantly i accept the consequences of the actions taken in my name.

Well the actions would be taken in your name regardless of you consenting or not...

what is wrong with the view that your government has betrayed you if it gives away the cratos which the demos bestowed upon it to an unrelated third party without seeking the consent of the people?

The people knew the goverment were pro eu and still they won all the seats if alot of people were that worried then surely they would show it with thier vote...

they are not all the same by any stretch of the imagination, and how is it logically possible for you to have more clout if you are veered away from your desired position by an enforced consensus dictat?!?!?

Imagine Liverpool withdrew from britian. Because Liverpools foriegn and domestic policy is now decided by only 100,000 people these people have much more say in thier goverments actions, but much less clout. Imagine if you will a goverment does something bad and various rich western goverments are threatening sanctions... and then comes the threat from liverpool... not much clout at all....

you already admitted you can't by wishing we were governed by the EU foriegn policy so that we could not invade iraq.

Well the main reason alot of mp's supported it was because of the drummed up threat Blair and various others created, they wouldn't have been able (or less likely) to get away with this in a european parlimentand thus the european parliment would have done what the majority of the public wanted...

how can you possible argue against devolution

Welsh parliment... huge waste of money, wales cannot stand on its own as an independent state so we have just elected a whole big new batch of politicians who can do a little bit of tinkering here and there but nothing major as an independent wales is unworkable for the forseeable future...

and for a centralising state

I want less goverment. I don't mind various levels of goverment to a point, you could for example in a one world goverment have 3 levels of goverment. Firstly local council, bin services and the like. Secondly 'state' goverments these have a certain amount of control to set regional policy. Lastly the world goverment, which undertakes things like major disaster relief, research research and more research, into every kind of medicene/surgery and new ways to extract energy and every ever thing which can advance the human race.

But in terms of goverment budgets, with a one world goverment it would be alot easier to lower the budget, no need for much of a military or missles (i suppose maybe keep a little) no need for immigration. Could have a tax system that the rich can't simply dodge, they will have to pay thier share like everyone else. In lots of other ways i personally would cut things of the budget but this is advantadges to one world goverment

what i'd like to know is if the one world government types even consider my reasoning a rational basis from which to accept governance

I don't agree on your shared values point, i think your wrong on it, but i guess i can see the viewpoint. If for example we were thinking of merging with a nation of cannibals.. i would be think thier way of life is just too different...

[Furunculus]

A nation is just a subdivision of a continent state similar to how in the middle ages(around 1800-2100) certain regions or countries were subdisvisions of nation states.
So basically what you elected leaders in the US decide is your policy and you are the one to decide it with your vote just like in the old nation states.
Don't pretend to have anything like referendums and also note that your politicians who you voted into office are among the ones pushing this, so if politicians of nation states always do what you want and is in your best interest then surely the EU is what you want.
If you're now going to say you didn't vote for the current government and do not agree with what they do then how is that going to be any better or worse in the EU?

on the subject of british views on the EU in general, and regionalism in particular, JFYI:
http://www.johnredwoodsdiary.com/200...p-with-the-eu/