3. we would have less clout in the world were we part of federal europe because our differing opinion would be drowned out among the need for a consensus opinion, whereby we are only 60m voices in 350m rather one of five UNSC votes.

I think i worded my answer badly.

What i meant to say was that you seem to agree there would be more power there overall...

But your defining the clout as our say in this increased power, whilst i seperated into 2 different categorys, clout as in just how many solidiers guns tanks ect. and then how much say we have, being our ability to have the army do what britian (or the british) wants it to do...

Basically i think we sidetracked off into an argument over semantics instead of an actual issue... as we both (seem to ?) agree there would be a bigger more powerful army but britian would have less control over it...

5. by devolution i mean the devolving of powers generally

I can agree to local control being a better option in some areas

not the welsh/scottish woody with rediscovering their current self.

Something else we can agree on, seems nothing more than a pointless exercise in patriotism

that is a marvelous way to write of the sum-total of all the differences outlined in my post above............

Was this aimed at my american culture post ? and if so I don't quite understand what you are trying to say...