Hoplitai and 0.2 density

**Phalanx300** · 03-04-2009, 16:11

Thanks Zett, and for the "Barbarian" units:

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Germanic Units:

Speutagardaz, 0.2
Druhtiz Herusku, 0.2

Dugunthiz, 0.23
Herunautoz, 0.23
Thegnoz Drugule, 0.23
Herthaganautoz, 0.23
Druhtiz Habukisku, 0.23
Dugunthiz Hattisku, 0.23
Gaizoz Alje, 0.23
Druhtiz Skandzisku, 0.23

Gaizoz Frije, 0.3

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Celtic Units:

Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Arjos, 0.2

Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Noricene Gaecori, 0.23
Milnaht, 0.23

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Getai Units:

Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23

I think thats about it

.

**Dutchhoplite** · 03-04-2009, 16:16

Nice work guys :)

I'm wondering what's best to do download this mod or change by hand. Only i have to know what to change

**Zett** · 03-04-2009, 17:37

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Thanks Zett, and for the "Barbarian" units:

------

Germanic Units:

Speutagardaz, 0.2
Druhtiz Herusku, 0.2

Dugunthiz, 0.23
Herunautoz, 0.23
Thegnoz Drugule, 0.23
Herthaganautoz, 0.23
Druhtiz Habukisku, 0.23
Dugunthiz Hattisku, 0.23
Gaizoz Alje, 0.23
Druhtiz Skandzisku, 0.23

Gaizoz Frije, 0.3

-----

Celtic Units:

Mori Gaesum, 0.2
Arjos, 0.2

Appea Gaedotos, 0.23
Noricene Gaecori, 0.23
Milnaht, 0.23

-----

Getai Units:

Ischyroi Orditon, 0.2

Getikoi Stratiotai, 0.23
Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai, 0.23

I think thats about it

.

Gaizoz Frije, unit description says nothing about shieldwall, they are Levy Spearmen "lacking in the organized training of the warbands that serve in a more regular capacity"
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) nothing about shield wall, and they fought with swords.
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) "work in close or open formation" and they have javelines
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) are bodyguards and not line Infantery, also the unit description says nothing about shieldwall
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) swordmen, I dont think they were able to fight in close formation and use their swords like the Romanii, they would fight individually.
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) swordmen and javeline, the unitdescription says "dense formations" but if they throw a javeline, they need space
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) they have javelines too
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) description says nothing about shieldwall or dense formation
Milnaht "Aside from their charge, they form an impressive, tight 'shieldwall' type of formation, to resist opposing charges." that can be better represented with guardmode, they would not charge in a dense formation

If you would give all those units lower density, you would need to give it all Romans too. I think only those units that fought in a very dense formation nearly all the time of a battle (no sword or javeline), for example all units that lost their phalanxability in 1.0 (not sure could be 1.1 too) should get a lower density.

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Density Mod 0.2 link

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

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Originally Posted by Dutchhoplite

Nice work guys :)

I'm wondering what's best to do download this mod or change by hand. Only i have to know what to change

Change it yourself or give me your unitlist and the density for each unit (but please not too many). You can do it easily, just open the EDU, search for the unit you want to give a lower density and add the density (for example: , 0.23) to the 'soldier' line.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Phalanx300** · 03-04-2009, 20:02

Originally Posted by Zett

Gaizoz Frije, unit description says nothing about shieldwall, they are Levy Spearmen "lacking in the organized training of the warbands that serve in a more regular capacity"
Druhtiz Herusku (Cherusci Swordsmen) nothing about shield wall, and they fought with swords.
Dugunthiz (Germanic Spearmen) "work in close or open formation" and they have javelines
Herthaganautoz (Germanic Bodyguard Infantry) are bodyguards and not line Infantery, also the unit description says nothing about shieldwall
Thegnoz Drugule (Germanic Heavy Infantry) swordmen, I dont think they were able to fight in close formation and use their swords like the Romanii, they would fight individually.
Herunautoz (Germanic Swordsmen) swordmen and javeline, the unitdescription says "dense formations" but if they throw a javeline, they need space
Dugunthiz Hattisku (Chatti Spearmen) they have javelines too
Gaizoz Alje (Celto-Germanic Spearmen) description says nothing about shieldwall or dense formation
Milnaht "Aside from their charge, they form an impressive, tight 'shieldwall' type of formation, to resist opposing charges." that can be better represented with guardmode, they would not charge in a dense formation

The Germanics were known to fight in very dense formations. The levy units were from childhood introduced to war, and being Germanics they would have a closer formation then most other levies.

On the spear and swordsmen, they were known to form a shieldwall/very dense formation, at the very least a very dense formation. They have javelins yes, but that does not change that they fought in the shieldwall as well. The Germanics were all around troops.

The bodyguard units would essentialy be the heavy form of the spear and swordsmen.

On Milnaht, then we might as well give Hoplites just guard mode at well. I don't really like this preference for Hellenic units.

After all, this is EB, all factions should get equal treatment

.

If you would give all those units lower density, you would need to give it all Romans too. I think only those units that fought in a very dense formation nearly all the time of a battle (no sword or javeline), for example all units that lost their phalanxability in 1.0 (not sure could be 1.1 too) should get a lower density.

Not really as all those units I posted fought in a Phalanx/Shieldwall/Dense formation.

**Zett** · 03-04-2009, 20:33

I don't think that all Germanic units fought in dense formation, so if the unit description says nothing about it we should not give them a lower density. In doubt leave it out. And about the bodyguards, to give them lower density only because thei are elites makes no sense. If we have no sources about them fighting in dense formation we should leave them at they are. They also have small shields which would be less effective if used in shieldwall then other shields. There for we should represent them as assualt infantery.
And about swordfighting. I think to hold a dense phalanx like formation while fighting with a sword is only possible if you stab. But if you want to slash with full power you need more space, same goes for javelines. Because we can not change the density in battle to represent the switching between javelin and close combat spear we should leave them at thei are, thats more realistic then let them throw their javelines in dense formation.

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Not really as all those units I posted fought in a Phalanx/Shieldwall/Dense formation.

Even if they fought in dense formation, that doesn't mean that they always fought in that way. And if they carry javelines, they would not throw them while in close formation. (fighting in close combat with spear in loose formation possible, throwing a javeline in close formation...dangerous

).

**Phalanx300** · 03-04-2009, 21:29

Well Germanics did usually fought in a more dense formation. About swordsmen, it says that they fought in the shieldwall. And swordsmen would perfectly be able to do so, just look at the Viking and Saxon shieldwalls etc.

And about small shields, well as you've seen from all Germanic units, there wasn't exactly a standard shield design, the EB team wanted some variety, at least thats what I think.

Even if they fought in dense formation, that doesn't mean that they always fought in that way. And if they carry javelines, they would not throw them while in close formation. (fighting in close combat with spear in loose formation possible, throwing a javeline in close formation...dangerous).

Then we could say that about all units who did fought in close formation.

And trowing a javelin, well it wouldn't be exactly impossible you wouldn't be able to trow it far or effective. Though they probably trew it when not in shieldwall and afterwards forming one.

Also, the Romans also sometimes used dense formation and also wore Javelins, it isn't exactly impossible.

**Zett** · 03-04-2009, 21:46

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

And about small shields, well as you've seen from all Germanic units, there wasn't exactly a standard shield design, the EB team wanted some variety, at least thats what I think.

We shoudn't give all units a lower density if we think it fits to them, if the unitdescription say nothing about it (and in that case it says nothing) we shouldn't give them a lower density. And the shields have to be of a proper size to form a shield wall, so the bodyguard unit shouldnt get lower density.

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

And trowing a javelin, well it wouldn't be exactly impossible you wouldn't be able to trow it far or effective. Though they probably trew it when not in shieldwall and afterwards forming one.

Thats the point, we are not able to let them change their density during battle, so it would be unrealistic if they throw javelines in dense formation (at least as dense as they would be if we give them 0.2 or 0.23). Thats why I say, fighting in loose formation would be possible and not unrealistic for them, throwing javelines would.

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

Then we could say that about all units who did fought in close formation.

Yes we could, but Hoplites don't carry javelines (normaly) and there for they would fought more often in dense formation then a germanic unit with javelines. If we could not represent the change during battle we should vote for the most realistical way to represent them. Throwing javelines in dense formation would be more unrealistic then fighting in loose formation (I'm starting to repeating me).

Originally Posted by Phalanx300

And swordsmen would perfectly be able to do so, just look at the Viking and Saxon shieldwalls etc.

http://www.regia.org/shields.htm Here they speak mostly from spears that were used in the shield wall (of course, different time frame then EB), same here http://homepage.ntlworld.com/echoblue/Theshieldwall.htm
wiki say that there ARE problems with swords and only shortswords could be effectively used in shieldwall.

And to all others (yes im looking at the 'hits' for thit thread and they are increasing) tell us what you think about that idea and how we should represent the Germanic units.

**Dutchhoplite** · 03-04-2009, 23:31

Hmm it's well beyond the EB period but at Strasbourg (357 AD) the Roman infantry *might* have carried the spatha and still fight in a shieldwall. So fighting in close formation and still use a longer sword is not impossible.