Awful, awful naval battles......

[Maleficus]

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks naval battles on ETW are atrocious, can I?

When my 5th and 6th rates are being beaten by indiamen and fluyts, there must be something wrong.....



Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening?


Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral.


Someone tell me how that adds up.


Well, it obviously doesn't. Which is rather a shame as I was really looking forward to naval battles but, TBH, those on Sid Meier's Pirates are infinitely better, if only because it's actually possible to win them.....




Thoughts?

[Ordani]

Naval battles get better once you get serious ships. Galleys are bugged and Fluyt/Galleons are straight up better in combat than 5th rates. It's definitely a drag that you can't play a normal naval engagement until you're at endgame tech levels -- sloops and brigs are basically useless against anything but other sloops and brigs. You would expect a trade raiding fleet to be all smaller vessels, but no, the best trade raiding fleet is ... another trade fleet.

[Maleficus]

Fluyt/Galleons are straight up better in combat than 5th rates.

Which is just plain wrong: according to Wiki (A reliable source, obviously ) Fluyts typically carried 12-15 cannon. how a dozen guns can beat 40-odd is beyond me.

[Graphic]

They should have just copied the Sid Meier's Pirates! system from the remake. Historically inaccurate as all hell, but unlike ETW's naval battles, they were fun :)

[A Very Super Market]

Fluyts have 42 guns for some strange reason.

[Maleficus]

Fluyts have 42 guns for some strange reason.

I just sent CA an email suggesting they actually do a little research next time. I doubt they'll pay any attention now that they've made their money, but it had to be said.

[Murmandamus]

Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening?

Were you using chain shot by any chance? Chain shot gets fired up into the rigging in order to try and rip it all down. Round shot goes down into the hull, and grape shot gets aimed at deck level.

Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral.

How about the fact that the defenders have a strong defensive position? From what I've seen, most of the fighting takes place below decks. Storm a building in a land battle and you also take heavy casualties. A building is a lot more open than in a ship. Once boarded they seem to be pretty much a fight to the death, so morale might not come into play.

Try using more grape shot before attempting a boarding :)

[Maleficus]

Were you using chain shot by any chance? Chain shot gets fired up into the rigging in order to try and rip it all down. Round shot goes down into the hull, and grape shot gets aimed at deck level.

That problem's with both chain and round.

How about the fact that the defenders have a strong defensive position? From what I've seen, most of the fighting takes place below decks. Storm a building in a land battle and you also take heavy casualties. A building is a lot more open than in a ship. Once boarded they seem to be pretty much a fight to the death, so morale might not come into play.

Try using more grape shot before attempting a boarding :)

Grape shot seems to have almost no effect. Oh, sure, it might kill 4 or 5 each time, but if I sit there pounding away at them with grape shot for ages, they just respond with round shot and sink me.

[IRONxMortlock]

Surely I can't be the only one who thinks naval battles on ETW are atrocious, can I?
When my 5th and 6th rates are being beaten by indiamen and fluyts, there must be something wrong.....

Maybe it's the fact that virtually every shot i take seems to go straight over the enemy ship, rather than into it. How am I supposed to do any damage with that happening?
Of course, that still doesn't explain my boarding parties nearly always losing. In one recent battle, 120 men from my 5th rate were beaten by 67 from the enemy's battered sloop. I not only had the advantage of numbers, but also morale as I'd just killed their admiral.
Someone tell me how that adds up.
Well, it obviously doesn't. Which is rather a shame as I was really looking forward to naval battles but, TBH, those on Sid Meier's Pirates are infinitely better, if only because it's actually possible to win them.....
Thoughts?

I'm afraid I have to agree; Naval combat is an unpredictable, buggy farce. The crazy formation bugs where moving one ship out of the line causes the rest of the ships to loose their minds and never be able to reform or hold a formation really sucks away the fun.

The unit strengths are stupidly unbalanced. Fighting against two gun, gunboats with a 4th rate, 5th rate, and 4 brigs/sloops results in my whole fleet sunk and gunboats withstanding 22 gun, point-blank broadsides over and over again.

You never know what you'll get. I try to use legitimate tactics (holding the weather gauge etc.) and sometimes win, sometimes loose without really knowing why. Combine that with the loading times and the result is that I'm over naval combat in this game. I auto resolve every time now.

[crpcarrot]

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

[AussieGiant]

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

It's heading that way.

[Maleficus]

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

Maybe it wouldn't if CA had got it right........

[batemonkey]

Well i love them and i've not found controling them too difficult. Although it is a challenge

If you plan it right you can roll the enemy's line right up.

If i'm outnumbered i don't really try and capture untill the odds are better

Brigs and sloops are quite useful for chasing down fleeing ships

[crpcarrot]

edited cos it was supposed to have a quote but cant be arsed to reply to it anymore

[Malkut]

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

At least nobody's threatened to sue CA.

Yet.

[IRONxMortlock]

is it just me or is the .ORG starting to look like the .COM site??

Because being a member of the org requires us to mindlessly ignore and deny all discussion and description about issues with Total War games?

[AussieGiant]

No but the level of tolerance and some ability to appreciate the scope of the project would be nice.

You don't generally accomplish too much in life by simply slating people or organisations off.

[Dogfish]

No but the level of tolerance and some ability to appreciate the scope of the project would be nice.

I appreciate and like the game, and still think highly of CA. But some of these issues are facepalmers. I only hope it is the fault of Sega demanding it get out the door, because otherwise I would feel slapped in the face by CA. So I think some level of intolerance is appropriate as well.

So when we're discussing these issues, do we need to include a caveat everytime so that you feel it's more balanced?

"This game is awesome and I love CA, but I beg them to please bless us with a working game. Thank you o mighty CA pleasedonthurtme."

You don't generally accomplish too much in life by simply slating people or organisations off.

Really? Bill O'Reilly and Rush Limbaugh don't agree with you. Among many others.

[ironanvil1]

Naval battles are a farce as it stands.

I had three 2nd Rates with a good admiral wiped out by 4 Galleons and 2 Fluyts

I also seem to have gun crews who always aim over the enemy ship while the AI uses special ship-homing cannonballs.

The only use I've found for sloops and brigs is suicide boardings so they blow up and take an enemy ship with them. Not, I believe, a standard naval tactic of the period.

[Zenicetus]

You never know what you'll get. I try to use legitimate tactics (holding the weather gauge etc.) and sometimes win, sometimes loose without really knowing why. Combine that with the loading times and the result is that I'm over naval combat in this game.

There's no point in trying to use the weather gage when wind and sailing are modeled as an arcade game, where ships can sail directly upwind, use 360-degree circling maneuvers, etc.. CA removed the one thing that would have imposed some order on the battle -- the "no go" zone of sailing directly upwind (or even at a modest angle to the wind direction with a square rigger), which would force both the AI and the player to use actual sailing maneuvers instead of steering around like powerboats. It sounds like there are some other glitches happening with respect to gunfire and so on, but that's the main reason the battles are so chaotic and unpredictable.

I auto resolve every time now.

How is that working? Do auto-resolved battles seem reasonable, based on stats comparison of forces? Or is there either a penalty or exploit for the player when sea battles are auto-resolved? I've been waiting to hear about that before buying the game, since I'm not interested in arcade game sea battles, and it's too early to tell if either CA or the modders can improve them.

[A Very Super Market]

Auto-resolve is surprisingly fair. There is the occasional upset battle (I've only seen one happen, and it just meant that I took slightly more casualties than they did), but it is completely intentional.

[IRONxMortlock]

How is that working? Do auto-resolved battles seem reasonable, based on stats comparison of forces? Or is there either a penalty or exploit for the player when sea battles are auto-resolved? I've been waiting to hear about that before buying the game, since I'm not interested in arcade game sea battles, and it's too early to tell if either CA or the modders can improve them.

It actually seems quite good. Trade ships (galleons especially) are probably still a bit too powerful in auto-resolve but nothing compared to when you try to fight them yourself in frigates. Basically the naval combat stopped becoming fun so auto-resolve saves me a lot of time and frustration. I recommend it to those who are having a similar experience.

[Arifel]

I cancelled my Pirates of the Burning Sea subscription at Empire Total War's release. I love the naval combat here. Pirates of the Burning Sea is all about simulating ship combat but they never simulated structure damage, and instead just used hit point system like a RPG. Here in ETW I get to deal lucky shots that desmast a flag ship even when I'm using ball shots because some idiot gunner aimed too high. I get to blow up a rated ship with a galley because a cannon ball hit the powder room. These things really spice things up. Although I wish the galley/bomb ketch/rocket ship line were reduced in availability.

[knoddy]

Although I wish the galley/bomb ketch/rocket ship line were reduced in availability.

galley fair enough, but im halfway through my grand camp, i only just got the tech to build the dock to train bomb ketchs n rocketships and i still havnt researched rockets? and im ahead of everyone in tech, how are they too available O.o

[Melvish]

Some people prefer to see the glass half empty, i prefer to see half full.

After years of requesting naval battle for TW we finally get it. Sure the system is flaw but it is a start, hopefully patches and mods will correct the balance.

[Callahan9119]

how do you have like 90 posts in less than 10 days

[Dogfish]

Haha, yeah, the OP is a pretty prolific poster. Most impressive.

I've been posting more since I'm not playing the game for a while. It's almost like the period pre-release, except my hype level is inversed. Actually fired up the game earlier, but quit before I had ended one turn -- holding off till the AI is fixed.

[Sir Beane]

how do you have like 90 posts in less than 10 days

Pfft. Depending on the day you can easily post upwards of 30 posts if you have enough free time .

What naval battles need is a properly functioning weather guage that can add a sense of order into the battle. And prevent silly tactics and motorboat-like movement.

[Didz]

I have also made the mistake of taking on on a Fluyt with a Brig and getting my arse handed to me.

Mind you I realised I was in trouble right from the start. This so called Fluyt, had 42 guns on two guns decks and was manned by pirates. It actually looked like a 3rd Rate not a merchantman, and I sure as hell was not planning to try and board it.

I've actually fought against pirates in the service of Morrocco during my Ottoman camapign and their melee ability is amazing.

[antisocialmunky]

Fluyts are scary. Also, I would formally like to request a pirate mod where you get to play as the pirates. :)