Ratzinger condemns condoms

[rasoforos]

The Pope certainly has a point and it is a solid one. One can argue that real experience may be different, but his role is to teach the absolute in ethical principles.

Banquo I think you are over simplifying this. One could argue that the most absolute ethical principle of the church is to 'do good'. I believe that this 'doctrine' is ahead of any more specific moral theological views as in 'do not throw your seed on the earth'. If we take it one step forward and agree that the pope's statement did more bad than good (as in more people will contract AIDS than if said statement was not made) then the pope is in error... ...and in contradiction will the 'good' nature of the church.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Anyhows I am kind of glad that our local flavour of Christianity does not care about such things (the Greek Orthodox church, having seen that religion is not a prosperous enterprise anymore , has mostly diversified into the real estate business )

[Banquo's Ghost]

Banquo I think you are over simplifying this. One could argue that the most absolute ethical principle of the church is to 'do good'. I believe that this 'doctrine' is ahead of any more specific moral theological views as in 'do not throw your seed on the earth'. If we take it one step forward and agree that the pope's statement did more bad than good (as in more people will contract AIDS than if said statement was not made) then the pope is in error... ...and in contradiction will the 'good' nature of the church.

I'm not sure that you are right. Our more learned theologians may differ, but I think the absolute ethical principle of the Church would be to do the will of God. We, the laity, may well have pre-conceived ideas of what is good, but his Holiness, as vicar of Christ on Earth, is there to tell us what is "right". If we believe, then it is a matter of our conscience and faith for us to follow that absolute, or in conscience, ignore that teaching at peril of our soul.

The Pope therefore, advocates no relativist teaching based on what might be "good" at this time or opinion, but what is "right" in his understanding of God's will. It is up to others to place their own relativist moral outlook on this ruling, if they wish to differ. Faithful Catholics may well observe the Holy Father's rulings to the letter - or mostly, be guided by such and their own consciences - which the Church also accepts may be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

This is not to say I agree with His Holiness on the issue of condoms, much less contraception in general, but I can understand why he might make such an argument and why it is valid.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Faithful Catholics may well observe the Holy Father's rulings to the letter - or mostly, be guided by such and their own consciences - which the Church also accepts may be influenced by the Holy Spirit.

I think that where Catholicism is a minority or opprossed religion, the Catholics take the letter of the law much more seriously. (The Irish, the Americans, the Poles)

In Latin Europe, most Catholics take a more relaxed attitude and realise that there are a) rules, and b) real life.

the Greek Orthodox church, having seen that religion is not a prosperous enterprise anymore , has mostly diversified into the real estate business

Catholicism has moved the other way. From the largest landholding, feudal intitution to a mostly moral institution.

Which, of course, I regret. It is the ancient dilemma of the anti-clericals. One the one hand, this shift is an expressed goal of anti-clericalism. On the other, the church needs to be involved in worldly affairs, with all the neverending scandals, orgies, and abuse that stems from having two feet firmly in the mud. Or else people will start to take all that superstition, magic and transubstantation seriously.

Besides, try to find a correlation between Catholic African countries and the worst AIDS rates/worst increases in AIDS rates. Good luck!

That is an excellent point.
Catholicism is only a small minority religion in Africa. Plus, the AIDS epidemic is strongest in the non-Catholic South and East of Africa.

[rvg]

I salute the Pope in his adherence to the basic Church principles. Expected nothing other than exactly that. Furthermore, this refusal to bow down to secular pressure is once again an indicator that the Catholic Church serves God and God alone, and there isn't a single government or social group capable of derailing the Church's commitment to the fundamentals of the Christian religion. Come to think of it, Orthodox Church is also pretty much the same way: they do not look kindly upon condom use.

Either way, if people do not like it, there are plenty of other religions out there. Nobody is *required* to be Catholic.

[rasoforos]

I salute the Pope in his adherence to the basic Church principles. Expected nothing other than exactly that.

Amen brother. And his holiness should finally do something about all those heretics that say the Earth is a Sphere. Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

Furthermore, this refusal to bow down to secular pressure is once again an indicator that the Catholic Church serves God and God alone

How do we know God does not like rubbers? No really, there is no verse about rubbers in the bible. It is a bit far fetched to assume that God agrees.

Come to think of it, Orthodox Church is also pretty much the same way: they do not look kindly upon condom use.

They know better than that... I have yet to see an archbishop issue anti-rubber decrees.

[rvg]

Amen brother. And his holiness should finally do something about all those heretics that say the Earth is a Sphere. Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

Church does not doubt the shape of the Earth. If fact, as far as Christianity is concerned, the shape of the Earth is irrelevant.

How do we know God does not like rubbers? No really, there is no verse about rubbers in the bible. It is a bit far fetched to assume that God agrees.

Genesis 38:6-10

They know better than that... I have yet to see an archbishop issue anti-rubber decrees.

So, if you ask an Orthodox priest whether or not it is okay to use condoms, will you receive an affirmative answer?

[rasoforos]

Genesis 38:6-10

γνοὺς δὲ Αὐνὰν ὅτι οὐκ αὐτῷ ἔσται τὸ σπέρμα, ἐγίνετο ὅταν εἰσήρχετο πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ ἀδελφοῦ αὐτοῦ, ἐξέχεεν ἐπὶ τὴν γῆν τοῦ μὴ δοῦναι σπέρμα τῷ ἀδελφῷ αὐτοῦ.

Ok first of all lets see the piece of story that this whole thing is based on.

There is this guy Judah who had three sons. One of them, Er, got married to Thamar. But God did not really fancy Er so he murdered him. He then went to his brother Onan and said 'Go your brother's wife so your brother has descendants but Onan would ejaculate on the earth because the descendants wouldn't be his. So God killed him. Then the father of the two boys said to the widow 'When my young son grows up you will get married to him'. But time goes by, the third son becomes adult and still Thamar doesn't get her third husband.

One day, after his wife died, the father goes to shear some sheep. Thamar gets covered from head to toe and goes to wait for him to pass by. When he does he thinks she is a prostitute and long story short he promises her a kid goat to have sex with her. She complies and gives birth to twins.

<---- This?! This is supposed to teach us morality...Women passed around and promised to people and tricking old men who don't mind visiting prostitutes soon after their wife died...ya...


There is no explicit mention to contraception or to condoms. It is however explicitly explained that:

a)If God wants you to have sex with your late brother's wife to have children then you have to do it.

b)Your sperm should not fall on the earth (and I have to say that condoms are a great means of making sure it does not)

[Rhyfelwyr]

Amen brother. And his holiness should finally do something about all those heretics that say the Earth is a Sphere. Also we should start burning witches again because it is a good old church tradition...

He was talking about principles, not traditions, there is a big difference.