Pirates seize U.S. freighter, hold captain for ransom

[Pannonian]

For some reason, the Pompey solution springs to mind. Scour the coasts and their hinterlands, then settle the pirates inland and provide them with a living that doesn't involve piracy. Reshape for modern realities and sensibilities.

[InsaneApache]

O/T.

I see the early release scheme has kicked in Tribes.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's a danish ship I believe

Which allows me to combine this thread with several others. Denmark alone can not protect its economic interests globally. Two dozen small and medium sized countries, however, can when they have the political will to cooperate:

Deeply concerned by the outbreak of acts of piracy and armed robbery off the Somali coast, the European Union launched military operation EU NAVFOR Somalia (operation "Atalanta"), which is conducted in support of UN Security Council Resolutions 1814 (2008), 1816 (2008), 1838 (2008) and 1846 (2008) in order to contribute to:
the protection of vessels of the WFP (World Food Programme) delivering food aid to displaced persons in Somalia; the protection of vulnerable vessels cruising off the Somali coast, and the deterrence, prevention and repression of acts of piracy and armed robbery off the Somali coast.

Operation EU NAVFOR reached its Initial Operational Capability on 13 December 2008.

This operation, which is the first EU maritime operation, is conducted in the framework of the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP).

EU.

The US, Russia and China, and several others, are employing armed escorts as well. Which is excellent. Nonetheless, 'shoot them' is as much a complete solution to Somalian piracy as 'shoot them' is an answer to street muggins.

Video of French commandos venturing deep inland to shoot pirate.

[Husar]

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this.

See Tribesey's response.

You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

Bah, I wouldn't like eating bugs. Bugs are disgusting and small, unlike african men.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

Starting a bloody campaign of death and destruction over some hurt pride was never something I support, pride is a completely artificial(/superficial) idea that does not warrant bloodshed at all IMO.
It may hurt a bit to take a beating now and then but if you respond calmly you will grow on it, remember what Jesus did when Paul cut off the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus.
You don't spread the love with carpet bombing and village raids.

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

So you support a policy of complete isolation?

Well, I don't actually have any data at hand but I can imagine a lot of ports would not like a bunch of armed guys running around, especially not in Europe and IA also gave a good example.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

Starting a bloody campaign of death and destruction over some hurt pride was never something I support, pride is a completely artificial(/superficial) idea that does not warrant bloodshed at all IMO.
It may hurt a bit to take a beating now and then but if you respond calmly you will grow on it, remember what Jesus did when Paul cut off the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus.
You don't spread the love with carpet bombing and village raids.

So, we've taken all their resources and they have a right to try to take them back?

Not buying into that. Not in favor of carpet bombing and the like, but focused violence probably IS part of the answer to curbing piracy a bit. I was never a fan of the "pay them off/appeasement" strategy, despite its historical tradition.

[KukriKhan]

If news reports are accurate, things should be coming to a boil today or tomorrow. I wonder if the resolution will free any other hostages and vessels.

Phillips is one of about 270 hostages being held at the moment by Somali pirates, who have been plying the busy sea-lanes of the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean for years.

They are keeping 18 captured vessels at or near lairs on the Somali coast -- five of them taken since the weekend alone.

All I can say is: if I were Sergeant Major of the US Marine Corps, which organization was founded to fight piracy - I'd be gnashing my teeth. Heck, I'm NOT Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent, and I'm still gnashing my teeth.

[Husar]

So, we've taken all their resources and they have a right to try to take them back?

Well, a man from Texas apparently had the right to shoot some guys who took his neighbor's ressources, weren't even his own ressources.

[rory_20_uk]

Unlike on land where random groups with guns in some areas of the world are commonplace (Iraq, Afghanistan, LA), small ships miles off the coast with gangs of armed men aren't.

Even if the fishing boats used to extend the range are more ambiguous these can be searched, and the smaller boats hundreds of miles off the coast with no other reason than banditry should be sunk.

If retaliation is only on the water the message is clear: banditry in the sea = death. Trying to attack on land will only imply that you might as well attack the ships for human shields as if you don't Delta Force / SAS / hellfire drones are only a matter of time.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Is that because it makes sense ?

So with have two current examples , one followed the guidelines set out and one didn't , one ship is sailing on its way with crew and cargo safe and intact , one is missing its captain .
So who got it right ?
The Isreali crew who rigged water hoses , lights and barbed wire so they drove off the pirates or the American crew who fought back without ensuring that all crew were safe .

My God, Tribesman is using a group of Israelis as a positive example in his posts, I thought I'd never see the day.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Husar:

My point was that sympathy for their condition should be irrelevant to the decision to stop piracy.

In our own countries, YOUR comparative poverty is not an acceptable excuse for you walking into some posh bloke's garage and driving off with his car. It may very well explain your motivation, it may spark some interest in reducing poverty in general, but it does not and cannot excuse the crime itself.

Piracy must be treated as a crime against all and must be pursued vigorously by all. Using electronic surveillance and other means, we need to identify pirate physical and personnel assets and remove them (not carpet bomb an 80% uninvolved fishing village for the actions of 3 families who live there) via destruction, confiscation or incarceration.

[Husar]

Seamus:

My point was not that they have a right to piracy but that there may be other solutions instead of bloodshed, like actually giving the people in that country other ways to earn money.
What they are doing is certainly not right but they usually do not kill anyone, yet everybody here wants to see them dead, that seems quite a harsh punishment to me in relation to the crime.
a kidnapper on land would not be shot on sight either, or would she?

[rory_20_uk]

Seamus:

My point was not that they have a right to piracy but that there may be other solutions instead of bloodshed, like actually giving the people in that country other ways to earn money.
What they are doing is certainly not right but they usually do not kill anyone, yet everybody here wants to see them dead, that seems quite a harsh punishment to me in relation to the crime.
a kidnapper on land would not be shot on sight either, or would she?

Rehabilitating everyone on the planet isn't economically possible.

They've chosen to break the law rather than sort out their cesspit of a country.

Call it a Darwin award or cleaning garbage, but the world is a slightly better place where they are fish food.

[Husar]

Rehabilitating everyone on the planet isn't economically possible.

They've chosen to break the law rather than sort out their cesspit of a country.

Call it a Darwin award or cleaning garbage, but the world is a slightly better place where they are fish food.

So you support the death penalty for thieves as well because they chose to become criminals rather than sorting out their cesspit of a life?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Just shoot them, you sissies. Third French attack on pirates, happening as we speak.

French hostages freed off Somalia

The families on board the Tanit were warned of the danger of pirate attacks
One French hostage has died and four others have been freed in a rescue operation by French troops on a yacht off Somalia, French officials say.

Two pirates were killed in the operation and three were captured, the French presidency said. Officials said the rescue was launched when talks with the pirates broke down and threats became "more specific".



"With the threats becoming more and more specific, the pirates refusing the offers made to them and the [yacht] heading towards the coast, an operation to free the hostages was decided upon," the president's spokesman said.

Mr Morin said his country had shown determination to oppose piracy.

"France has shown its determination not to give in to blackmail, [to] prosecute the criminal acts and liberate the hostages every time that a ship under a French flag is captured," he said.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Rehabilitating everyone on the planet isn't economically possible.

They've chosen to break the law rather than sort out their cesspit of a country.

Call it a Darwin award or cleaning garbage, but the world is a slightly better place where they are fish food.

This is very true. They can help fix their own country and be part of the solution instead of the problem.

[Tribesman]

My God, Tribesman

Yes my son ?

Even if the fishing boats used to extend the range are more ambiguous these can be searched, and the smaller boats hundreds of miles off the coast with no other reason than banditry should be sunk.

The problem there is that you are talking about a vast area with thousands of ships/boats in it only a minute proportion of which are engaged in illegal stuff .
There are very few warships to cover that huge area (and they are not co-ordinated in their operations) . They cannot board and search all the vessels and they can't really identify the dodgy ones until they do something dodgy .
Plus of course as the EU and US naval forces have said , modern navigation aids are benefitting the pirates , they only have to bother watching for vessels they might want to attack and vessels they really want to avoid being anywhere near , while the navies have to watch everything that floats .

[Hosakawa Tito]

Just shoot them, you sissies. Third French attack on pirates, happening as we speak.

Good for the French. Enough of this "buns up kneeling" to a bunch of criminals. Confront them, catch them, demand their surrender...prosecute them, and if you must, kill them. They're in the pirate business strictly for the money not to kill people or make a political statement, so stop making this crime pay so well. Eventually most will seek a new career choice.

[Tribesman]

Florent Lemacon and his wife Chloe were "repeatedly warned" not to travel through the area.

Yet they did .

"It is difficult to understand why these warnings were not heeded,"

No it isn't , look....

We don't want our child to receive the sort of education that the government is concocting for us.

...they didn't like what the government had to say about things so obviously they woudn't listen if the government told them not to do something .

So the question is .....

It is unclear whether Mr Lemacon was killed by his captors, or by a stray French bullet.

Whats the opinion ? A French bullet for being an idiot ?

[ajaxfetish]

Not in favor of carpet bombing and the like, but focused violence probably IS part of the answer to curbing piracy a bit.

Why is it always about curbing piracy? Am I the only one here who cares about the future of the earth?
We Need Moar Piratz!!

Ajax

[FactionHeir]

I was wondering, how accurate would snipers be if stationed on those destroyers? I mean 4 pirates in a boat and maybe 4 snipers on the ship would take care of the situation? Or is the wind too unpredictable for this?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I was wondering, how accurate would snipers be if stationed on those destroyers? I mean 4 pirates in a boat and maybe 4 snipers on the ship would take care of the situation? Or is the wind too unpredictable for this?

That's 4 near-simultaneous shots, all of which must incapacitate their targets, from a moving object to another moving object at a considerable distance. I'm guessing the difficulty factor is pretty well up there. Moreover, the heavy sniper rifles that would provide the best stability of shot at the ranges in question are heavy enough to go through a target to hit the person -- maybe a merchie captain -- behind it.

Not undoable, but I think we're talking a very tough call and fairly steep difficulty factor.

[KukriKhan]

That's 4 near-simultaneous shots, all of which must incapacitate their targets, from a moving object to another moving object at a considerable distance. I'm guessing the difficulty factor is pretty well up there. Moreover, the heavy sniper rifles that would provide the best stability of shot at the ranges in question are heavy enough to go through a target to hit the person -- maybe a merchie captain -- behind it.

Not undoable, but I think we're talking a very tough call and fairly steep difficulty factor.

S.E.A.L.S. I've known (sounds like a memoir, don' it?:)) used to train rigorously for such up-close-and-personal contingencies on the water. I wonder what they're doing now?

A personal anecdote: at work today, the workroom floor (populated by about 20 formerly-active Marines, amongst we few Army, Navy & AF 'formers') were livid at the seeming inaction, LOUDLY. For once, management did not impose a gag order. Smart move, I thought, as I sorted mail to 3101 Clarence Street.

[Shaka_Khan]

That's 4 near-simultaneous shots, all of which must incapacitate their targets, from a moving object to another moving object at a considerable distance. I'm guessing the difficulty factor is pretty well up there. Moreover, the heavy sniper rifles that would provide the best stability of shot at the ranges in question are heavy enough to go through a target to hit the person -- maybe a merchie captain -- behind it.

Not undoable, but I think we're talking a very tough call and fairly steep difficulty factor.

Plus, there are big waves. And the pirates are riding a small ship, which makes it a difficult target from far away. Meanwhile, pirates could fire RPGs at large tankers.

[Husar]

I think he meant snipe them on the merchant ship but I think it would never work, too much movement and those ships are usually not glass pavillions with windows everywhere.

And even then I thought in hostage situations you usually negotiate first before you open fire, I don't know why a bunch of bank robbers get a negotiation but somehow when it all happens on a ship everybody goes around screaming kill, kill, we want blood! Or is it just because those guys are somalian sub-humans who don't deserve a negotiation or arrest?

I agree with Hosakawa Tito here, try to arrest them, but only kill when necessary.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Plus, there are big waves. And the pirates are riding a small ship, which makes it a difficult target from far away. Meanwhile, pirates could fire RPGs at large tankers.

You may be right about the waves, I haven't been assiduously tracking local sea conditions and such.

As to the RPG's, that's a non-starter. The USN will have warned all ships to steer clear of the situation AND an RPG wouldn't do a lot beyond scratching the paint on a VLCC. The RPG's are a threat to the crew of the vessel at close range, not to the vessel itself. The chances of a "golden bee-bee" shot from and RPG crippling a VLCC are almost incalcuable.

[Hosakawa Tito]

Here's another interesting development.

Now they can bag the lot. There is technology out there *since the early 90's* that can disable a vehicle's engine using high voltage radio frequency, seems like a perfect use for it. Disable the ships, using the SEAL teams, and wait them out. Offer the pirates a turkey bologna sammich and a bottle of Dasani for each hostage released. When they get hungry & thirsty enough they will comply. Allowing them to leave the area is not an option. Stop the lucrative ransom merry-go-round and this type of criminal activity will wither on the vine.

Underscoring the high stakes involved, France’s navy freed a sailboat seized off Somalia last week by other pirates, but one of the hostages was killed, along with two of the bandits. Three pirates were captured. In Paris, Armed Forces Chief of Staff Jean-Louis Georgelin dismissed the notion of coordination between the French and Americans on the two incidents.

Hopefully, this is untrue or soon to be remedied. All the major nation's navies patrolling this area must coordinate their efforts to be truly effective.

[Marshal Murat]

So this argument boils down to either:
"We prevent piracy by inserting troops into Somalia to prevent them from launching ships to grab international ships" versus "We prevent piracy by reforming Somalia".

Either way we call in the Marines.

[Furunculus]

This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

i don't care about their rights, sailors should have great leeway to use all necessary force to preserve themselves and their vessels from piracy.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm sure slave traders also had a story to tell about how the money helped pay off their son's gambling debts and secure their daughter's dowry...

Some things to help:

Convoys. Group friendlies together.
Some sort of system that informs the "good ships where they are in the ocean"... GPS possibly? With unique ID tags. These days they can be dynamically changed by the hour.

This is one time when acting together would make life oh so much easier. All ships tell one repository the information that is then relayed to the taskforce.

You might have the occasional time a system malfunctions, but then what about calling the ship to ask?
You might get a time that the systems malfunction so much that all comms are dead. Then investigate.


Suddenly "suspicious" ships go from possibly all to the pirates plus maybe a couple. Cross reference the suspicious ones with known friendly signals that have suddenly gone dead and these are either under attack or need help in any case.

How hot are engines at night (or duringt he day for that matter) for an IR satellite?
How far can radar sweep for contacts?

With one lot of ships keeping the friendlies safe and the faster ones hunting with the aid of satellites and drones to extend the range you'd quickly cut down on those taken and also those that are killed.

Do we have to relearn the lessons every time there's a naval war? Last time the enemy was underwater and the area was the North Atlantic! SORT THIS OUT

[HoreTore]

If I was a somali, I'd be a pirate! At least I have no moral qualms about being one. And why should I?

They're poor people who steal money from the rich at no risk to themselves. Who has moral issues with that?

The argument that we should arm ships is idiotic. Let's say I'm a captain of a merchant ship. The pirates never harm me. All they do is take money that isn't mine. Any reason why I should care about that? However, if I try shooting at them, they will of course shoot back and maybe kill me. So, for no gain, I put my life at risk. Lose-lose.

I work at a shop. There's no way I'll ever fight back if I get robbed. Honestly, they don't even need a weapon to rob me, all they need to say is that they want to register, and I'll hand it over in a second. It's not my money, so I see absolutely no reason to care. My life and my safety is worth more than a few bucks.