Pirates seize U.S. freighter, hold captain for ransom

[Don Corleone]

Yes, many of them are pirates because it's a job, and there are no other jobs.
Attacking them now might mean all the sailors die, and sailors of other countries as well, countries that will then hate the US.

Putting armed men onto ships means you aren't allowed into many ports around the globe, this was discussed before.

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this. You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this. You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

It's a danish ship I believe, and I imagine they want to make money by trading.

[KarlXII]

Anyone here ready for the Third Barbary War?

In all seriousness, this is nothing surprising. The problem is, I don't think there's any one pirate port or base that can just be tooken out and the pirates die. This is a problem that will need to be addressed ship by ship, and possibly seaborne interdictions into Somalia. It would require a lot of manpower and money, but I have confidence a strategy like this would work. However, in light of the stretching of the U.S. Military and the economic situation, this is unlikely in the near future.

And I think Husar is right that these pirates are simply in it for the money, and not trying to push some ideological or political agenda. An offensive against piracy will undoubtedly turn them even more hostile against Western ships, but again, I think it's necessary we address the problem with gun boat diplomacy and force of arms.

[InsaneApache]

I'm going to ghast your flabber a bit more Don.

The point about varying ports not allowing armed guards on ships is a truism. How can I put it? Imagine an Iranian container ship docking in, say, New York. The port authorities board her to examine the manifest. On board they find 50 Iranian Revolutionary Guards armed to the teeth. What do you think would be the attitude of New York Port Authority? Never mind the CIA/FBI.

Husar also has a point about no jobs. I read somewhere that since the country disolved into anarchy, foreign fishing fleets, EU, Indian, Chinese etc. have moved into the vacuum and basically raped the ocean of fish. Many of these pirates are former fishermen. So the article said. Now I don't know if that's true or not but it would seem to make sense.

If it is true, then we in the west bear some culpability for this. Things are often not as black and white as they first appear.

I'll try to dig up the article, it may take some time. I'm a prolific reader of the t'interwebs.

[Louis VI the Fat]

It's a danish ship I believe

Which allows me to combine this thread with several others. Denmark alone can not protect its economic interests globally. Two dozen small and medium sized countries, however, can when they have the political will to cooperate:

Deeply concerned by the outbreak of acts of piracy and armed robbery off the Somali coast, the European Union launched military operation EU NAVFOR Somalia (operation "Atalanta"), which is conducted in support of UN Security Council Resolutions 1814 (2008), 1816 (2008), 1838 (2008) and 1846 (2008) in order to contribute to:
the protection of vessels of the WFP (World Food Programme) delivering food aid to displaced persons in Somalia; the protection of vulnerable vessels cruising off the Somali coast, and the deterrence, prevention and repression of acts of piracy and armed robbery off the Somali coast.

Operation EU NAVFOR reached its Initial Operational Capability on 13 December 2008.

This operation, which is the first EU maritime operation, is conducted in the framework of the European Security and Defence Policy (ESDP).

EU.

The US, Russia and China, and several others, are employing armed escorts as well. Which is excellent. Nonetheless, 'shoot them' is as much a complete solution to Somalian piracy as 'shoot them' is an answer to street muggins.

Video of French commandos venturing deep inland to shoot pirate.

[a completely inoffensive name]

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this. You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

As for telling countries to **** off because they refuse for others to bring guns into their ports...well I really don't know what to say to that.

[Don Corleone]

This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

As for telling countries to **** off because they refuse for others to bring guns into their ports...well I really don't know what to say to that.

Defending yourself is highly pompous and arrogant?

And no Karl, it didnt just become a problem. It just became a problem for us. And its going to get really bad, really quickly, because of the way we've chosen to handle it.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Defending yourself is highly pompous and arrogant?

And no Karl, it didnt just become a problem. It just became a problem for us. And its going to get really bad, really quickly, because of the way we've chosen to handle it.

Asking someone how could they even think of supporting the pirates is a bit pompous, yes.

[KarlXII]

And no Karl, it didnt just become a problem. It just became a problem for us. And its going to get really bad, really quickly, because of the way we've chosen to handle it.

No, it's always been a problem, for everyone. Unless you're fine with other ships being hijacked because they aren't American. I think that's shameful to just now consider piracy as a threat to the United States, and only the United States, without any regard to the numerous other nationalities who have suffered from it.

[Don Corleone]

No, it's always been a problem, for everyone. Unless you're fine with other ships being hijacked because they aren't American. I think that's shameful to just now consider piracy as a threat to the United States, and only the United States, without any regard to the numerous other nationalities who have suffered from it.

I think you misunderstood me. When a Japanese ship get siezed, it is the responsiblity and right of the nation of Japan to determine how to proceed. If they ask for our help, then we might intervene, but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited.

[KarlXII]

I think you misunderstood me. When a Japanese ship get siezed, it is the responsiblity and right of the nation of Japan to determine how to proceed. If they ask for our help, then we might intervene, but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited.

This isn't about a nation's affairs. This is about international piracy.

but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited

Hasn't stopped us before.

[a completely inoffensive name]

Hasn't stopped us before.

That doesn't mean we should continue that policy.

[InsaneApache]

I think you misunderstood me. When a Japanese ship get siezed, it is the responsiblity and right of the nation of Japan to determine how to proceed. If they ask for our help, then we might intervene, but it's not our place to jump into their affairs uninvited.

It's the responsibility of all nations. Piracy is what is known as a universal crime. What's buggering it all up is what to do with them once you've captured them. Believe it or not, most times they are set free.

[ajaxfetish]

What's buggering it all up is what to do with them once you've captured them. Believe it or not, most times they are set free.

How about if they're set free a few miles out to sea?

Ajax

[Strike For The South]

Step 1: Behead pirates
Step 2: Put heads on USS Lexington.

There not only have we taken care of the problem but we look BA

[KarlXII]

Step 1: Behead pirates
Step 2: Put heads on USS Constitution.

There not only have we taken care of the problem but we look BA

Fixed. What better way to display the heads of pirates than on the ship that participated in pirate wars?

[Furunculus]

This attitude seems highly pompous and arrogant. You are acting as if these pirates are not humans themselves, with a side to tell. Piracy is the only way for many in that region to live a decent quality of life, they are not to be looked as monsters.

i don't care about their rights, sailors should have great leeway to use all necessary force to preserve themselves and their vessels from piracy.

[rory_20_uk]

I'm sure slave traders also had a story to tell about how the money helped pay off their son's gambling debts and secure their daughter's dowry...

Some things to help:

Convoys. Group friendlies together.
Some sort of system that informs the "good ships where they are in the ocean"... GPS possibly? With unique ID tags. These days they can be dynamically changed by the hour.

This is one time when acting together would make life oh so much easier. All ships tell one repository the information that is then relayed to the taskforce.

You might have the occasional time a system malfunctions, but then what about calling the ship to ask?
You might get a time that the systems malfunction so much that all comms are dead. Then investigate.


Suddenly "suspicious" ships go from possibly all to the pirates plus maybe a couple. Cross reference the suspicious ones with known friendly signals that have suddenly gone dead and these are either under attack or need help in any case.

How hot are engines at night (or duringt he day for that matter) for an IR satellite?
How far can radar sweep for contacts?

With one lot of ships keeping the friendlies safe and the faster ones hunting with the aid of satellites and drones to extend the range you'd quickly cut down on those taken and also those that are killed.

Do we have to relearn the lessons every time there's a naval war? Last time the enemy was underwater and the area was the North Atlantic! SORT THIS OUT

[HoreTore]

If I was a somali, I'd be a pirate! At least I have no moral qualms about being one. And why should I?

They're poor people who steal money from the rich at no risk to themselves. Who has moral issues with that?

The argument that we should arm ships is idiotic. Let's say I'm a captain of a merchant ship. The pirates never harm me. All they do is take money that isn't mine. Any reason why I should care about that? However, if I try shooting at them, they will of course shoot back and maybe kill me. So, for no gain, I put my life at risk. Lose-lose.

I work at a shop. There's no way I'll ever fight back if I get robbed. Honestly, they don't even need a weapon to rob me, all they need to say is that they want to register, and I'll hand it over in a second. It's not my money, so I see absolutely no reason to care. My life and my safety is worth more than a few bucks.

[Tribesman]

Hopefully, this is untrue or soon to be remedied.

Don't be silly , co-ordination is pretty much non existant and if France again publicises the opening of its local bases to the US then they will get the backlash .

[Husar]

We could send ninjas to fight them!



So on the next international talk like a pirate day, can I expect all of you to talk arabic?

[Furunculus]

If I was a somali, I'd be a pirate! At least I have no moral qualms about being one. And why should I?

and if i were a ship owner with a way to defend myself i would happily pull the trigger when your 'fishing' boat hove into view.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Somalia, like all maritime countries, has legal rights over an exclusive economic zone that extends 200 nautical miles to sea. And though it has no navy to enforce its control, it theoretically owns the fish and minerals in that area.

Many of Somalia's angry fishermen have picked up rifles and joined the pirate mafias that have seized more than two dozen vessels off the Somali coast so far this year, maritime security experts say.

"It's almost like a resource swap," said Peter Lehr, a Somalia piracy expert at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland and the editor of "Violence at Sea: Piracy in the Age of Global Terrorism." "Somalis collect up to $100 million a year from pirate ransoms off their coasts. And the Europeans and Asians poach around $300 million a year in fish from Somali waters."

Personally, I say good for the pirates

[Husar]

I have absolutely no way to respond to viewpoints like this.

See Tribesey's response.

You're a nice guy Husar, I've come to appreciate your views over the years, but the above... you could tell me you eat bugs and I'd be less flabbergasted.

Bah, I wouldn't like eating bugs. Bugs are disgusting and small, unlike african men.

How do you defend the kidnappers? How do you blame the U.S. for protecting its sailors?

I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

Starting a bloody campaign of death and destruction over some hurt pride was never something I support, pride is a completely artificial(/superficial) idea that does not warrant bloodshed at all IMO.
It may hurt a bit to take a beating now and then but if you respond calmly you will grow on it, remember what Jesus did when Paul cut off the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus.
You don't spread the love with carpet bombing and village raids.

As for countries that would deny port entry to ships that actually capitalize on their right to defend themselves.... perhaps we're better off not trading with such self-loathing people with no instinct to survive.

So you support a policy of complete isolation?

Well, I don't actually have any data at hand but I can imagine a lot of ports would not like a bunch of armed guys running around, especially not in Europe and IA also gave a good example.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I'm not defending the kidnappers, I'm saying you should not carpet bomb villages because some people were kidnapped. It's not like the pirates are bloodthirsty monsters who eat bugs and then the kidnapped people after receiving the money. They're a bunch of guys who have no jobs but little boats so they think they can make some money off these rich westerners who come buy with expensive ships that they afforded by selling ressources they got out of the pirates' country. Yes, they do fumble around with sticks and shoot rockets but that just shows how insecure they are because they are afraid someone on the ship might use a water hose on them otherwise. They play big gorilla to scare their prey because otherwise they don't have a chance, that a bunch of sailor can overwhelm them or scare them away now and then just reinforces that.

Starting a bloody campaign of death and destruction over some hurt pride was never something I support, pride is a completely artificial(/superficial) idea that does not warrant bloodshed at all IMO.
It may hurt a bit to take a beating now and then but if you respond calmly you will grow on it, remember what Jesus did when Paul cut off the ear of a soldier who came to arrest Jesus.
You don't spread the love with carpet bombing and village raids.

So, we've taken all their resources and they have a right to try to take them back?

Not buying into that. Not in favor of carpet bombing and the like, but focused violence probably IS part of the answer to curbing piracy a bit. I was never a fan of the "pay them off/appeasement" strategy, despite its historical tradition.

[KukriKhan]

If news reports are accurate, things should be coming to a boil today or tomorrow. I wonder if the resolution will free any other hostages and vessels.

Phillips is one of about 270 hostages being held at the moment by Somali pirates, who have been plying the busy sea-lanes of the Gulf of Aden and Indian Ocean for years.

They are keeping 18 captured vessels at or near lairs on the Somali coast -- five of them taken since the weekend alone.

All I can say is: if I were Sergeant Major of the US Marine Corps, which organization was founded to fight piracy - I'd be gnashing my teeth. Heck, I'm NOT Sergeant Major of the Marine Corps Carlton Kent, and I'm still gnashing my teeth.

[Husar]

So, we've taken all their resources and they have a right to try to take them back?

Well, a man from Texas apparently had the right to shoot some guys who took his neighbor's ressources, weren't even his own ressources.

[rory_20_uk]

Unlike on land where random groups with guns in some areas of the world are commonplace (Iraq, Afghanistan, LA), small ships miles off the coast with gangs of armed men aren't.

Even if the fishing boats used to extend the range are more ambiguous these can be searched, and the smaller boats hundreds of miles off the coast with no other reason than banditry should be sunk.

If retaliation is only on the water the message is clear: banditry in the sea = death. Trying to attack on land will only imply that you might as well attack the ships for human shields as if you don't Delta Force / SAS / hellfire drones are only a matter of time.

[ajaxfetish]

Not in favor of carpet bombing and the like, but focused violence probably IS part of the answer to curbing piracy a bit.

Why is it always about curbing piracy? Am I the only one here who cares about the future of the earth?
We Need Moar Piratz!!

Ajax

[FactionHeir]

I was wondering, how accurate would snipers be if stationed on those destroyers? I mean 4 pirates in a boat and maybe 4 snipers on the ship would take care of the situation? Or is the wind too unpredictable for this?