Find me a home (now focusing on biblical Israel & the talmud)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There is a difference, old testament is full of immoral texts, but (most of) it are old accounts if things that have already taken place, 'god wanted us to do it' 'god was with us' etc. You will find much worse in the Makkabees (sp?). Yet in the Quran it is written down as an timeless obligation, cannot be compared. It's the difference between telling someone what you have done and telling someone what he should do.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali spoke beautifully on the subject, I think it is on YouTube somewhere.

[Ironside]

There is a difference, old testament is full of immoral texts, but (most of) it are old accounts if things that have already taken place, 'god wanted us to do it' 'god was with us' etc. You will find much worse in the Makkabees (sp?). Yet in the Quran it is written down as an timeless obligation, cannot be compared. It's the difference between telling someone what you have done and telling someone what he should do.

I'm sure hooahguy or any of the other practising Jews residing here are fully up to the task of marrying thier older brother's wife should the brother die, banging the wife and naming thier first-born son after the older brother. Or selling thier under aged daughter off to permanent servitude with the intent of selling her as a wife.

Those are ageless RULES, commands by GOD.

It's all about interpretation and appearently Christianity and Judaism get a lot of leeway when it comes to interpretation, but Islam is trapped to it's millenia old ways. Or so some people claim.

[Hooahguy]

What was Jericho then, where every man woman and child were slaughtered? Ai, where the city was raised to the ground?

the people of jerico and Ai were part of the 7 nations within Cannan that G-D wanted us to destroy. numerous reasons why, such as one reason i heard somewhere, all the nations were offered the chance to become the chosen ones, but these 7 nations were ones who refused AND cursed G-d at the same time, thus he anted them destroyed. not sure where i heard that though.

[Hooahguy]

I'm sure hooahguy or any of the other practising Jews residing here are fully up to the task of marrying thier older brother's wife should the brother die, banging the wife and naming thier first-born son after the older brother. Or selling thier under aged daughter off to permanent servitude with the intent of selling her as a wife.

um, no. we have long since thrown away the practice of yibum and selling children/ourselves for slavery.

[Hax]

Those are ageless RULES, commands by GOD.

Hey, you're not allowed to say that name! STONE HIM!

the people of jerico and Ai were part of the 7 nations within Cannan that G-D wanted us to destroy. numerous reasons why, such as one reason i heard somewhere, all the nations were offered the chance to become the chosen ones, but these 7 nations were ones who refused AND cursed G-d at the same time, thus he anted them destroyed

Surely the sign of a just and merciful God.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I'm sure hooahguy or any of the other practising Jews residing here are fully up to the task of marrying thier older brother's wife should the brother die, banging the wife and naming thier first-born son after the older brother. Or selling thier under aged daughter off to permanent servitude with the intent of selling her as a wife.

Those are ageless RULES, commands by GOD.

It's all about interpretation and appearently Christianity and Judaism get a lot of leeway when it comes to interpretation, but Islam is trapped to it's millenia old ways. Or so some people claim.

Christianity is not bound by Mosaic Law, or any other pre-Christian Law aside from the Ten Commandments. The New Covenant itself is very vague about Laws in general, the only parts that deal with Christian laws are the Epistles, and you can get around them quite easily.

I'm really not sure about the justification for selecting from Mosaic Law in Judaism though.

I'm curious, why do Jews no longer offer sacrifice?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

It's all about interpretation and appearently Christianity and Judaism get a lot of leeway when it comes to interpretation, but Islam is trapped to it's millenia old ways. Or so some people claim.

I cannot speak for Judaism, though I am sure hooahguy can make an admirable case in its defence. However, Christianity does get a relatively large amount of leeway on the subject. Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla made an excellent post on the subject. Islam, on the other hand, seems to get relatively little - I am still trying to find the excellent talk made by Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the subject. She mentions it in passing at 4:04, though not in depth.

[Fragony]

but Islam is trapped to it's millenia centuries old ways. Or so some people claim.

You think it isn't? Let's just take it at face value and compare society's, backward is too agressive a word for the islamic world as a whole but archaic it certainly is.

[Hax]

I cannot speak for Judaism, though I am sure hooahguy can make an admirable case in its defence. However, Christianity does get a relatively large amount of leeway on the subject. Philipvs Vallindervs Calicvla made an excellent post on the subject. Islam, on the other hand, seems to get relatively little - I am still trying to find the excellent talk made by Ayaan Hirsi Ali on the subject. She mentions it in passing at 4:04, though not in depth.

Don't be ridiculous, please. How would you know this? Do you know any Muslims in the west? I spoke with my father (who is Islamic, yes) about praying, and he said that it is more a form of meditation than real prayer, and he acknowledged that there are always irrelevant things. Also know that some Arabic words are difficult to translate into the Germanic and Roman languages, and as thus some parts from the Qu'ran could be mistranslated. The best way to read it is to learn Arabic and then read the Qu'ran in Arabic.

Islam is different from Judaism and Christianity due to the fact that its origins are very clear. After Muhammed's death virtually everything he had said was recorded and written down in the series of stories we know as the Qu'ran. Judaism's history is very unclear as we cannot state when exactly the Old Testament was really made. Dates range between 3,000BC and 40BC. The new testament was finally recorded in Nicaea in 325AD (if I'm not mistaken). As such, Islam is the only monotheistic religion whose origins are fairly well known.

But seriously, Fragony, EMFM..have you ever been to an Islamic country?

Islam, on the other hand, seems to get relatively little

None of the Muslims I know have tried to kill me.

[Fragony]

Yes, been to Turkey and Marocco, guess what I have dated maroccan girls, and I have muslim friends nah they never believe that.

Islam is different from Judaism and Christianity due to the fact that its origins are very clear. After Muhammed's death virtually everything he had said was recorded and written down in the series of stories we know as the Hadith

fixed

[Ironside]

um, no. we have long since thrown away the practice of yibum and selling children/ourselves for slavery.

Sorry, bad case of sarcasm not going through the internet. That you don't do it anymore is the whole point.
Why did (all?) Jews stop following that part of the Bible btw?

You think it isn't? Let's just take it at face value and compare society's, backward is too agressive a word for the islamic world as a whole but archaic it certainly is.

I'm mainly suspicious about the implying about Islam never being able to change, that the societies built on an islamic fundation are archaic in some ways I can agree on (interestingly it's often a relativly new movement that created the most archaic ways though).

Was thinking of millenium old, but missed the singular grammar.

Islam is different from Judaism and Christianity due to the fact that its origins are very clear. After Muhammed's death virtually everything he had said was recorded and written down in the series of stories we know as the Hadith

Still not something that goes against my thesis that there are considerble space for reforms inside Islam.

[Tribesman]

Still not something that goes against my thesis that there are considerble space for reforms inside Islam.

well the thing is that fundamentalism , which is the problem in all of the big three , is a reaction against the reforms which have taken place .

[Rhyfelwyr]

well the thing is that fundamentalism , which is the problem in all of the big three , is a reaction against the reforms which have taken place .

Hardly true for Christianity - fundamentalism was a result of the Reformation. Not necessarily man-walked-with-dinosaurs fundamentalism, but the Reformed theologians at Geneva termed themselves as 'Biblicists'.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I'll get back to your righteous outrage in a moment Hax.

[Hax]

I'll get back to your righteous outrage in a moment Hax.

Righteous outrage?! I'll take that as a compliment, my dear friend.

No sarcasm.

[Tribesman]

Hardly true for Christianity - fundamentalism was a result of the Reformation.

Very true for Christianity , after all what were they upset with in the way the church had developed and changed over the centuries

[Rhyfelwyr]

Very true for Christianity , after all what were they upset with in the way the church had developed and changed over the centuries

Not really, some of the bad practices which emerged might have tipped the balance, but few of the reformers viewed themselves as trying to return to an earlier, purer church. This is in contrast to many Muslims who look back to the Caliphate.

[Tribesman]

Not really, some of the bad practices which emerged might have tipped the balance, but few of the reformers viewed themselves as trying to return to an earlier, purer church.

Yes really , luther was well pissed with some of the changes and developments , he even changed some the words in the bible to show everyone how pissed off he was . He wanted a return to a "purer" church .

This is in contrast to many Muslims who look back to the Caliphate.

Many Muslims ? I thought this was about the fundies . say for example the saudi fruitcakes who harp on about a return to the good old Caliphate yet follow a sect that opposed the good old Caliphate

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yes really , luther was well pissed with some of the changes and developments , he even changed some the words in the bible to show everyone how pissed off he was . He wanted a return to a "purer" church .

Yes he wanted to sort out some of the corruptions which had emerged such as indulgences and some funny doctrines, but he was quite disillusioned with the whole Papal-style church system by the end of his life, not just its incarnation during his time. And Luther only represents the first phase of the Reformation, Calvin could harldy be said to be looking backward to a mythic past church, his doctrines were all new, even if he was influenced somewhat by Augustine.

Many Muslims ? I thought this was about the fundies . say for example the saudi fruitcakes who harp on about a return to the good old Caliphate yet follow a sect that opposed the good old Caliphate

There's nothing wrong with looking back to Islam's golden age. If Christians and Muslims could get on in Andalusia a millenia ago, you would think they could do it nowadays. There's nothing wrong with Christians or Muslims looking back to such times, at least not from a secular point of view.

[Hooahguy]

I'm curious, why do Jews no longer offer sacrifice?

because we no longer had the Temple in Jerusalem. the concept of altars besides th eones in the Mishkan and the Beit Hamikdash was, and still is, looked down upon. if there is no holy temple for G-ds spirit to reside in, we clearly are not worthy of offering sacrifices. but our substitue is daily prayer, which we do 3 times a day, to replace the 3 daily sacrifices: at morning, afternoon, evening.

Why did (all?) Jews stop following that part of the Bible btw?

well, for one thing, society changed. what was then normal practice became a taboo. same goes for many of the practices. also, when the Jewish courts (called the Sanhedrin) no longer became the head of the judiciary system (especially around the times of the Romans), there was no way to do this, plus the hethens prevented us, trying to stamp out judasim.

Surely the sign of a just and merciful God.

if he wasnt a merciful god, he would have smote my people countless times, like after the sin of the golden calf, for example. if you want i can give many, many times in which G-d was about to smite all the Jews, but then decided not to.

just curious Hax, why did you bring up the 7 nations thing?

[Fragony]

Not really, some of the bad practices which emerged might have tipped the balance, but few of the reformers viewed themselves as trying to return to an earlier, purer church.

That's not true that was more or less the point, reformers were inspired by the thinkers of the renaissance who believed that the closer you were to the life of Jezus and his apostels the better, to yes return to a purer form of christianity.

[Rhyfelwyr]

That's not true that was more or less the point, reformers were inspired by the thinkers of the renaissance who believed that the closer you were to the life of Jezus and his apostels the better, to yes return to a purer form of christianity.

A purer form of christianity yes, but not a purer past form of the Roman Catholic Church. Otherwise, why would they not establish their own Papacy?

[Fragony]

my bad misunderstood you

[Hooahguy]

i learned a very interesting piece on the 7 nations issue.
the rambam answers that G-d needed a monotheistic society in Israel. he offered to the 7 nations that if they would believe in him they could stay, but if not, they had to be expelled.

[KarlXII]

the people of jerico and Ai were part of the 7 nations within Cannan that G-D wanted us to destroy. numerous reasons why, such as one reason i heard somewhere, all the nations were offered the chance to become the chosen ones, but these 7 nations were ones who refused AND cursed G-d at the same time, thus he anted them destroyed. not sure where i heard that though.

I heard one reason in one place from that one guy who knows this one thing about that.

You haven't provided a reason for the "defence" against Jericho and Ai.

[Hooahguy]

well Jerico and Ai were part of those 7 nations.
and when did i say it was defense?

[KarlXII]

[QUOTE=hooahguy;2217399]certain nations that were in disgust of G-d and tried to destroy us,QUOTE]

Guilt by association, eh?

[Hooahguy]

guess so.

[KarlXII]

guess so.

So Jericho and Ai, two cities whose people did not attack the Israelites nor bear any offense to them, were still deserving of destruction in a war of religious conquest?

[Hooahguy]

So Jericho and Ai, two cities whose people did not attack the Israelites nor bear any offense to them, were still deserving of destruction in a war of religious conquest?

that is debatable.