light spear balance (vs. swords) in 1.2

[Woreczko]

That's interesting. Hypaspistai have sword as primary weapon and spear as secondary, Thorakitai Hoplitai have spear as primary and sword as secondary. And still they beat up Hypaspistai? Would be nice if someone could make some costume battle tests with Hypaspistai and Thorakitai Hoplitai.

That`s because non-phalanx infantry units with 2 melee weapons tend to switch to secondary arm durin melee. Thus hypaspistai were fighting mostly with spears and Thorakitai with ap swords. No wonder, that Th. hoplitai won. The above mechanics makes all sword@spear infantry (mainly elites) much weaker than it should be. They receive cavalry charges with swords, and melee other infantry with spears - exact opposite of what they should have been doing.

Spear as primary and sword as secondary works pretty well for the very same reasons.

[Zett]

Spear as primary and sword as secondary works pretty well for the very same reasons.

I think so too. Same goes for Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Indogreek Hoplites. How you already said, if a soldier is stoken down but not killed, he stands up and switch to secondary weapon. As human player you have to order the unit to attack again and again only to maintain the swordfight. Thorakitai Hoplitai are easier to use, if they are in melee with an infantery unit, only klick alt attack one time and they will fight with swords until you order something else.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Aper]

I think so too. Same goes for Massaliotai Hoplitai and the Indogreek Hoplites. How you already said, if a soldier is stoken down but not killed, he stands up and switch to secondary weapon. As human player you have to order the unit to attack again and again only to maintain the swordfight. Thorakitai Hoplitai are easier to use, if they are in melee with an infantery unit, only klick alt attack one time and they will fight with swords until you order something else.

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

A very long time ago I asked for help trying to switch spear as primary and sword as secondary for those elites: sadly people answered that the only way to do this is to change the model of the unit with 3D Max or similar...

There are two possible solutions:
1) change EB units with similar units of other mods that have spear as primary and sword as secondary
2) remove the spear

I use the second option and I'm quite satisfied: they suffer charges but in melee they perform better than before.

BTW, have you considered the idea of linking the reduction to soldier's radius to morale, giving a lesser bonus to levies and a greater one to elites?
I'm using this system with success in the development of Paeninsula Italica mod...

[Woreczko]

Yep, you need 3dmax to switch weapons. Unless you don`t care about the visuals - unit stats themselves can be easily swapped.

Personally I did, what you did - removed spears from said units. While celtic and germanic elites are ok that way, I feel hypaspistai-like infantry should be rather like classical hoplites, than swordsmen...oh, well.

Regarding spear units - I divided them into overhand, hoplite-like ones and underhand, anti-cavalry spearmen.
- First type has -4 attack, no light_spear attribute (no longer anti-cav) and 0.3 radius (except units, who naturally operate in loose formation, like ekdromoi)
- Second type has -4 attack. These are usually low-grade spear units (who aren`t expected to be good vs other infantry) or higher quality spear&sword infantry (who got swords for meleeing other inf.).
- All spears get lethality of 0.18

I changed a lot of lethality and attack values as well as distribution of "ap" attribute and numerous other things... so don`t expect above modifications to work flawlessly in vanilla EB. I thought of releasing a whole mod out of this, but i`m not sure yet.

[mcantu]

why change lethality values at all?

[Woreczko]

That`s a long story. As I said - I modified a lot of things, so 0.18 lethality of spears fits my version of EB well. Generally the outline is like this:
- spears have low to medium attack and 0.18 lethality. Overhand get a "density bonus", underhand are good vs. cavalry
- shortswords have medium attack values, low lethality (0.1-0.13) and are armour piercing (unless used by horsemen)
- longswords have high attack values and 0.2 lethality
- axes have low attack values and 0.25 lethality, no longer armour piercing.
- falcata, sica and other fancy sword-like weapons have very high attack values and medium lethality (0.16). No ap.
- 2-handed weapons got even higher lethality, than before, but lose the "ap" attribute.

The reasoning:
It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.

I was also dissatisfied with unnaturaly high attack values of spearmen - so I lowered their attack and gave them higher lethality - spear is surely a deadly weapon. Then I thought - are hoplites indeed an anti-cavalry arm? Sure, they are not. They evolved in theatre dominated by infantry combat, and so are trained and equipped to fight infantry mainly. No reason for "light_spear" attribute. And thus came the division of spear-armed units into "general-purpose" short, overhand spears and anti-cavalry, longer spears, not-so-good vs. other foot soldiers.

[Drewski]

That`s a long story. As I said - I modified a lot of things, so 0.18 lethality of spears fits my version of EB well. Generally the outline is like this:
- spears have low to medium attack and 0.18 lethality. Overhand get a "density bonus", underhand are good vs. cavalry
- shortswords have medium attack values, low lethality (0.1-0.13) and are armour piercing (unless used by horsemen)
- longswords have high attack values and 0.2 lethality
- axes have low attack values and 0.25 lethality, no longer armour piercing.
- falcata, sica and other fancy sword-like weapons have very high attack values and medium lethality (0.16). No ap.
- 2-handed weapons got even higher lethality, than before, but lose the "ap" attribute.

The reasoning:
It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.

I was also dissatisfied with unnaturaly high attack values of spearmen - so I lowered their attack and gave them higher lethality - spear is surely a deadly weapon. Then I thought - are hoplites indeed an anti-cavalry arm? Sure, they are not. They evolved in theatre dominated by infantry combat, and so are trained and equipped to fight infantry mainly. No reason for "light_spear" attribute. And thus came the division of spear-armed units into "general-purpose" short, overhand spears and anti-cavalry, longer spears, not-so-good vs. other foot soldiers.

Sounds very interesting, like the ideas :)

[jhhowell]

To clarify, in my campaign the Lusos were reduced to NW Gaul well before this spear mod existed (big empire plus not a lot of playing time means rather slow progress, sadly...). So their presence there doesn't say anything meaningful about balance.

On the plus side, I noticed just before quitting last night that the Maks have displaced the Getai from their homelands. I find that impressive since the Makedonian armies I see lately are a few Phalangitai Deuteroi, a fair number of those Thracian levy spearmen, and an odd and unpredictable assortment of other troops (akontistai, or thracian peltasts, or lugoae, very rarely a rhomphaiaphoroi will pop up). Unless the AI started spamming rhomps a few turns ago, I find it very surprising that such a force could push the Getai around. Will send spies to see what's going on next time I play.

Drewski, that Parthia map you posted was what I was thinking of. I find that pretty impressive, both in absolute terms and especially considering their starting position in 272 BCE.

[Drewski]

To clarify, in my campaign the Lusos were reduced to NW Gaul well before this spear mod existed (big empire plus not a lot of playing time means rather slow progress, sadly...). So their presence there doesn't say anything meaningful about balance.

On the plus side, I noticed just before quitting last night that the Maks have displaced the Getai from their homelands. I find that impressive since the Makedonian armies I see lately are a few Phalangitai Deuteroi, a fair number of those Thracian levy spearmen, and an odd and unpredictable assortment of other troops (akontistai, or thracian peltasts, or lugoae, very rarely a rhomphaiaphoroi will pop up). Unless the AI started spamming rhomps a few turns ago, I find it very surprising that such a force could push the Getai around. Will send spies to see what's going on next time I play.

Drewski, that Parthia map you posted was what I was thinking of. I find that pretty impressive, both in absolute terms and especially considering their starting position in 272 BCE.

On your first point, I've played enough campaigns to know that the RNG holds more sway over the campaign map, than any little tweaks I (or anyone else) can add...e.g. play 5 campaigns as Casse, where u dont really influence anything for 30 yrs or so ...and sometimes The Arverni rule France and The Lowlands, sometimes The Aeudil, sometimes the Sweboz, sometimes even The Romans.., most of the time, they are all still slugging it out..

Its MOSTLY down to the great RNG.

Second point, yep that really is quite an impressive Parthian map. Point one, Id just got my Northern Getai army completely Nuked by Samartian HA and was very pissed off, Point 2a, don't EVER code ANYTHING when u are pissed off ;)

Point 3, in the cold Light of Wednesday, I still reckon the whole steppe factions need a little rebalance--HA secondary attack is equal to Princepes primary (with MIC taken into consideration), for friks sake ...

[Aper]

I changed a lot of lethality and attack values as well as distribution of "ap" attribute and numerous other things... I thought of releasing a whole mod out of this, but i`m not sure yet.

It seems like you just read my mind: the same thoughts occupied too much of my time in the last weeks... Maybe we can discuss about this through PMs and release a joint project...

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.

Well, actually until Romans fought Hellenistic kingdoms (vs. Phlilip V in 197 B.C. IIRC), heavily armored enemies were pretty rare, and however the broad point and blade of pre-Imperial Gladii don't suit well in an anti-armor role... I think your approach of raising the lethality of the most effective weapons should be more appropriate for the Gladium than the AP attribute.

It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

I totally agree

[Africanvs]

Well, actually until Romans fought Hellenistic kingdoms (vs. Phlilip V in 197 B.C. IIRC), heavily armored enemies were pretty rare, and however the broad point and blade of pre-Imperial Gladii don't suit well in an anti-armor role... I think your approach of raising the lethality of the most effective weapons should be more appropriate for the Gladium than the AP attribute.

I agree with you here. I think all of his changes make a lot of sense, but the gladius was effective because of the scutum. The Romans would hide behind that shield and thrust the gladius into the neck/face or slash the hamstring, not necessarily stab through armor.

[Drewski]

Re: KH

@Zett in particular.

Playing a massive campaign as KH at the moment (with Spear changes). I have to agree that KH probably suffer the most. But I'm absolutely loving it. The KH get SO many other bonuses that say the Romans don't. Almost anywhere you conquer early on, has a least one mid level barracks you can instantly recruit from. And what a wonderful myriad of troops to choose from. Plus, you can get "super lance cavalry", which are the real killers, almost anywhere (with a lvl 2 home MIC), with a MUCH lower MIC than other factions' elite troops( and yes in my view they are extremly elite).

My plan (which worked nicely), was to run up through Makedonia, and into Tylis, making Tylis my sole LVL 4 Gov, and growing it as fast as possible. In 25 yrs from the start of game, I am churning out Elite Thracians every turn. 3 per 20 stack, and 3 Noble Cav, plus a good mix of heavy/light hoplites make an awesome army. I even started adding a 30 mnai stome thrower to each army. Yes that's incredibly expensive, but as the KH, you get so rich so fast, you can afford it, and it's so much more fun than the boring old Romani ;)

And then there's Syracusian hoplites, distinguished hoplites (both veritable tanks), and of course, home grown non merc Kretian Archers, and Rhodsian Slingers. What more could a leader want? Yes it's pretty hard in the early days (isn't it for most factions?), with 8 or 9 attack Levy Hoplites, but that's when your Generals earn their mettle. I haven't had a General actually fight in a battle for many a year now.

Took Dalminion and Syracuse, sat there for 15 yrs with mutual Romani borders (some kinda record) without them attacking, and when they finally did, it was with a 20 stack, almost all Pedites Extras, with a few cavalry plus 8 star general. I thought (gulp), here's the test, my Dalminion Army of mostly hoplites, a few illyrian spears, some Rhodes slingers, Kretan Archers, requistite Elite Thracian, wing Galatians Shordswords and lance cavalry absolutely massacred them. And the full stack right behind it.;)

My new favorite faction to be sure :)

Back on the post topic, giving all these guys 4 attack back, would make it so easy as to be almost pointless fighting..........

[Zett]

Re: KH

@Zett in particular.
Plus, you can get "super lance cavalry", which are the real killers, almost anywhere (with a lvl 2 home MIC)

Level 3 MIC if you mean these guys

Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry)

After I thought a while about the +4 attack bonus I have to agree, that it is not necessary for KH. Nice to hear, that you like KH.

There is a additional point that speaks for KH, they have only one unit (if you leave the artillery out) that requires a level 5 MIC, Spartiatai Hoplitai (only recruitable in Sparte). All other "elite" units (Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hopitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai) only need a level 4 MIC.

And back to the Hippeis Xystophoroi, if you compare them with their counterparts, they are mostly slightly inferior, but you can recruit them (how you already said) nearly everywhere and you only need a level 3 MIC.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)


Area of Recruitment

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

[Drewski]

Level 3 MIC if you mean these guys

Hippeis Xystophoroi (Greek Noble Cavalry)

After I thought a while about the +4 attack bonus I have to agree, that it is not necessary for KH. Nice to hear, that you like KH.

There is a additional point that speaks for KH, they have only one unit (if you leave the artillery out) that requires a level 5 MIC, Spartiatai Hoplitai (only recruitable in Sparte). All other "elite" units (Thorakitai, Thorakitai Hopitai, Epilektoi Hoplitai, Koinon Hellenon Phalangitai) only need a level 4 MIC.

And back to the Hippeis Xystophoroi, if you compare them with their counterparts, they are mostly slightly inferior, but you can recruit them (how you already said) nearly everywhere and you only need a level 3 MIC.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

From up to down: Hippies Xystophoroi (KH), Hippies Thessalikoi (Makedonia, Epeiros and KH), Agema Klerouchikon Hippeon (Ptolemaioi), Eqvites Extraordinarii (Romani), Hetairoi, Molosson Agema (Epeiros)


Area of Recruitment

Ceterum censeo Romam esse delendam

Didn't notice it was only a Lvl 3 GVT to recruit Xyst's ...excellent news !

I checked the files to make sure I had the right province to recruit Elite Thracians (as in Tylis), but I've put a self imposed ban on checking recruitment viewer and code for a while, it's good to get surprises still

Btw, excuse my mix of modern and ancient names for places and units, its part how I best remember them, and part lazyness ;).........now if only my PC would finish defragging my hard drive...I've been waiting almost 4 HOURS NOW and want to get back to the campaign....

[seienchin]

That`s a long story. As I said - I modified a lot of things, so 0.18 lethality of spears fits my version of EB well. Generally the outline is like this:
- spears have low to medium attack and 0.18 lethality. Overhand get a "density bonus", underhand are good vs. cavalry
- shortswords have medium attack values, low lethality (0.1-0.13) and are armour piercing (unless used by horsemen)
- longswords have high attack values and 0.2 lethality
- axes have low attack values and 0.25 lethality, no longer armour piercing.
- falcata, sica and other fancy sword-like weapons have very high attack values and medium lethality (0.16). No ap.
- 2-handed weapons got even higher lethality, than before, but lose the "ap" attribute.

The reasoning:
It was always strange to me, why best ap units (axemen, 2-handers) were found in areas, where heavy armour was pretty rare. Then I thought, why are heavy weapons ap? Sure, they are good vs. armour, but aren`t they even more deadly vs. unarmoured foes? It can be simulated IMHO better with high lethality or attack values, rather than ap attribute.

And that`s why, I gave "ap" attribute to weapons, who should be specifically efficient vs. armoured warriors. To soldiers, who are used to fighting opponents clad in linothrax or iron. Roman legionaries were an obvious choice, and so shortsword became an ap weapon in my version of EB.
.

Mmh... Maybe it balances the game better, but I disagree to your reasoning.
It is unimportant if you use a huge Axe or a short sword against an enemy wearing no armour, but you get a big advantage against heavily armoured people, if you use a big Axe, sword or somehting. It just has to do with the kinetic energy you get from using a heavy weapon. It is much easier to fight with a short sword, because it is small and light. It would be more logical to give shortsword fighters a high atack skill and no armour pircing and the 2 Hand weapons and maybe longswords the AP skill, low atack skill and high lethality.
If you dont believe me, go to the forest and try to pierce through hard wood with a dagger and then with a giant axe. It simply has more impact on hard materials.

[Woreczko]

Well, after a conversation via PMs with Aper I revised my modded EB. Shortswords are no longer AP, just have the highest attack value (just like in vanilla EB).

However we are both staunchly against axes and 2-handers having an ap attribute. In RTW AP+high lethality = overkill. In EB, armour is relatively high, while differences between stats like attack or defense skill are relatively small. So... AP practically eliminates the need for a high attack value. E.g. you get +5 attack bonus vs. Thureophoroi; +7 vs hypaspistai. At the same time said elite hypaspistai have just 4 points of attack more than yer anatolian hilly-billy hillmen and exactly the same defense skill. If both units get tired, than their skills go down, but massive +7 bonus due to AP remains.

High attack + low lethality is comparably good in a head-on or even a loosing fight. Your soldiers may hit the enemy , despite them having all of their defense working against you. It`s also comparably poor, for attacking in favorable conditions, as your soldiers, despite hitting the enemy even more often, have a low chance, to actually kill them.

Low attack + high lethality is good in favorable conditions. Because of various factors (flank attack, enemy being tired, etc.) you soldiers, despite low attack will hit often enough. And, when they hit, they have a good chance to kill. However, in "fair fight" they may have problems hitting the enemy often enough, for their high lethality to make a difference.

This = balanced. However AP, which often takes away a good chunk of enemy`s defense (and unarmoured units having a low defense overall) combined with high lethality = high chance to hit + high chance to kill.... you get the picture.

If you dont believe me, go to the forest and try to pierce through hard wood with a dagger and then with a giant axe. It simply has more impact on hard materials.

"Giant axe" simply can simply accumulate much more kinetic energy, due to it`s weight and (im)balance. It posses absolutely no advantage over dagger, when it comes to using this energy to penetrate things.
Moreover, a typical fighting axe is a rather light weapon, often no heavier, than a sword. It`s just, that most of it`s weight is concentrated at it`s end - so it can strike harder and is more unwieldly at the same time.

[DaciaJC]

Sorry to intrude upon this discussion, but I am wondering if there was a modded EDU that balanced the light spears for multiplayer. I accidentally applied the mod to the mp backup and while the light spears are now balanced, the troop selection in custom battle consists mostly of mercenaries and not native troops.

[Drewski]

Sorry to intrude upon this discussion, but I am wondering if there was a modded EDU that balanced the light spears for multiplayer. I accidentally applied the mod to the mp backup and while the light spears are now balanced, the troop selection in custom battle consists mostly of mercenaries and not native troops.

I didn't do one for MP sorry....

If you need the original EB 1.2 mp game edu backup, here it is export_descr_unit.zip

[DaciaJC]

Oh, thanks a lot, mate. I'll take the time to apply your changes to the mp edu and upload it when I have time.

[jamee]

hi, ive tried downloading this file but everytime i go to unpack it, it says file is corrupt and is empty??? any ideas??

[Aurgelmir]

I playing now for e few weeks with Drewsky´s EDU,and i think that the balance is just right now..
And the AI balance is the same as it was before.The romans are still slowly,even now that they have an advantage.

Drewsky did you cahange the HA stats?

[Drewski]

hi, ive tried downloading this file but everytime i go to unpack it, it says file is corrupt and is empty??? any ideas??

I just downloaded the file from this thread, and it unzipped fine. Sorry don't know what happened for you if you keep getting the same error.

Here's the same file again, maybe try downloading this one export_descr_unit.zip

I playing now for e few weeks with Drewsky´s EDU,and i think that the balance is just right now..
And the AI balance is the same as it was before.The romans are still slowly,even now that they have an advantage.

Drewsky did you cahange the HA stats?

Glad you like it :) Now I've had plenty of time to try out various nations with it (Rome, KH, Epiros, Casse, Getai), I too think the battles really are balanced properly now. No problems here either with ai expansion patterns, I don't think the changes make that much of a difference, to the way ai auto-resolve battles are calculated.

NO the file in this thread DOES NOT change Horse Archer stats at all. (just to clarify). I'm still personally tinkering a little with those in my own games.

[PraetorFigus]

I have also done some tinkering with the edu.

I gave all light_spear units an attack of 11, the result has been surprisingly no spamming of low end levees with more elites in armies. against aedui and arverni as romani I was fighting more gaesatae then expected, Epeiros have phalangites with lots of chevrons very tough to face triarii and principes are no longer that superior then other units, and hastatii are actually more useful making battles far more interesting for and against romani.

I currently have a Seleukid campaign where I am not steamrolling into Egypt against Ptolies with Pezhetairoi and ranged support. it's been back and forth for a while, and I'm looking forward to fighting other factions besides Pahlava whose bodyguard are now very very tough in melee.

One thing I like with the 11 attack is that cavalry now do not die like flies when the AI tries to out flank me and have been more successful causing mass routs instead of getting chopped up and getting routed with the rest of the AI army wavering, so a little less micro managing for the player also.

But I'm not entirely clear on the benefits of some of the other changes you have made compared to vanilla EB, I've also gotten bogged down with the lower radius for units in terms of assigning appropriate values without turning units into tanks. but one thing for sure, with the 11 attack there does not seem any away to fight battles with time limits, battles run much longer.

how are the battles with your changes? what else can you share with your observations from your changes? I certainly like were these changes are going while we wait for EBII!

also, I want to eventually incorporate the lower radius but with RL don't have enough time to test and tinker

[Drewski]

I have also done some tinkering with the edu.

I gave all light_spear units an attack of 11, the result has been surprisingly no spamming of low end levees with more elites in armies. against aedui and arverni as romani I was fighting more gaesatae then expected, Epeiros have phalangites with lots of chevrons very tough to face triarii and principes are no longer that superior then other units, and hastatii are actually more useful making battles far more interesting for and against romani.

I currently have a Seleukid campaign where I am not steamrolling into Egypt against Ptolies with Pezhetairoi and ranged support. it's been back and forth for a while, and I'm looking forward to fighting other factions besides Pahlava whose bodyguard are now very very tough in melee.

One thing I like with the 11 attack is that cavalry now do not die like flies when the AI tries to out flank me and have been more successful causing mass routs instead of getting chopped up and getting routed with the rest of the AI army wavering, so a little less micro managing for the player also.

But I'm not entirely clear on the benefits of some of the other changes you have made compared to vanilla EB, I've also gotten bogged down with the lower radius for units in terms of assigning appropriate values without turning units into tanks. but one thing for sure, with the 11 attack there does not seem any away to fight battles with time limits, battles run much longer.

how are the battles with your changes? what else can you share with your observations from your changes? I certainly like were these changes are going while we wait for EBII!

also, I want to eventually incorporate the lower radius but with RL don't have enough time to test and tinker

The only thing I changed was removing 4 attack from all Light_Spear Units, which also includes all Phalanx units. I didn't alter the radaii at all (assuming you were addressing me that is ;))

Sorry, but I don't like the idea of making ALL light_spear 11 attack. Why bother recruting the better units if you do this? If you just take 4 attack away, then spear units go from (I think) 8-16 basic attack, which still makes sense.

I found it tough at the start in a KH campaign, but then Levy Hoplites really shouldn't be anything but emergency battlefield troops. Vanilla EB 1.2 gives them 12 attack, which is to my mind quite ridiculous, when taken into account that's more than a pretty decent sword or axe unit.

As I said above, I personally find battles a lot more realistic. Spear on spear is exactly the same balance as before, high lvl sword/axe units perform better vs mid/low spears, but then they should.

[jamee]

i think i have got it to work,well i hope so.. but when i was trying to unzip it, it kept giving me this error message,--unsupported compression method for export_descr_unit txt-- and it kept saying the title was broken... baffled me it did.. but with perserverance,i somehow managed to do it.. (i think)..
anyway,it does seem like a good thing to have.. good work.

[Drewski]

i think i have got it to work,well i hope so.. but when i was trying to unzip it, it kept giving me this error message,--unsupported compression method for export_descr_unit txt-- and it kept saying the title was broken... baffled me it did.. but with perserverance,i somehow managed to do it.. (i think)..
anyway,it does seem like a good thing to have.. good work.

Which unzip prog were you using to get those messages?

[jamee]

winrar and z-zip...

[Drewski]

winrar and z-zip...

Very strange. I use winrar too. Oh well, glad you finally got it to work

[mcantu]

I have also done some tinkering with the edu.

I gave all light_spear units an attack of 11, the result has been surprisingly no spamming of low end levees with more elites in armies. against aedui and arverni as romani I was fighting more gaesatae then expected, Epeiros have phalangites with lots of chevrons very tough to face triarii and principes are no longer that superior then other units, and hastatii are actually more useful making battles far more interesting for and against romani.

I currently have a Seleukid campaign where I am not steamrolling into Egypt against Ptolies with Pezhetairoi and ranged support. it's been back and forth for a while, and I'm looking forward to fighting other factions besides Pahlava whose bodyguard are now very very tough in melee.

One thing I like with the 11 attack is that cavalry now do not die like flies when the AI tries to out flank me and have been more successful causing mass routs instead of getting chopped up and getting routed with the rest of the AI army wavering, so a little less micro managing for the player also.

But I'm not entirely clear on the benefits of some of the other changes you have made compared to vanilla EB, I've also gotten bogged down with the lower radius for units in terms of assigning appropriate values without turning units into tanks. but one thing for sure, with the 11 attack there does not seem any away to fight battles with time limits, battles run much longer.

how are the battles with your changes? what else can you share with your observations from your changes? I certainly like were these changes are going while we wait for EBII!

also, I want to eventually incorporate the lower radius but with RL don't have enough time to test and tinker

you made all spear units have 11 attack? what the hell is the point of that?

with no distinction for skill or training or anything, you've taken out much of the diversity between units. am i missing something?

[jamee]

drewski how would i be able to find out if i have got it working ok?? where would i be able to see the changes made? also, how do you get your units to use their secondery weapon,ie swords instead of the spear/ or do they just do it automaticly?? cheers