Free Speech - Some people just don't like it

[Beskar]

What people have failed up, you say there is a cult of people feverishing defending it, but you are forgetting why they might tell some people to be quiet. It isn't because they got a critical concern, or any constructive posts, but it is because they make posts like this.

I will not say any names, but there is was member who kept making tons of polls who didn't even own the game, but flooded every topic flaming the game every opportunity they got. There are others as well, they derail topics just flooding it with insulting language at members who might enjoyed an aspect of the game, or CA staff, or anyone who is not flaming the game in their post.

Is it understandable why people told them to shut up? They were just insulting the game in every topic which they never even owned to actually give a valid comment on. There are a few others which have done this and do this too.

One amazing thing is, they all have the default avatar:


I have unconscious been trained by the vast replies of idiots with the avatar to just ignore and skip posts with that picture displayed next to it. That isn't a very good sign as unfortunately I just end up skipping the posts of innocents.

[Daveybaby]

One amazing thing is, they all have the default avatar

LOL, was just thinking the exact same thing.

IMO, what this forum really needs is an ignore function, that completely and utterly hides the posts of people on your ignore list. No more self-obsessed bleating. Bliss!

[Andres]

LOL, was just thinking the exact same thing.

IMO, what this forum really needs is an ignore function, that completely and utterly hides the posts of people on your ignore list. No more self-obsessed bleating. Bliss!

There is an ignore function.

Just go to the profile of the member you wish to ignore. Right above the box where you can write visitor messages, you'll see:

Send Message User Lists Edit User Profile View My Personal Webpage

Click on the little arrow next to "User Lists" and you'll get a menu. One of the options is "Add to ignore list". Click it et voilà.

Don't try it out with my profile, since you cannot put moderators on your ignore list. Apparently, we are just too interesting to be ignored.

[caravel]

One amazing thing is, they all have the default avatar

Have you not yet heard of the mysterious cult of the default avatar users?

[Dayve]

We've all seen people get flamed to buggery for making an honest and respectful complaint though, and it IS always the same people defending and flaming those people.

When the CA staff member made that big speech about how the game isn't perfect but IS finished, you have to remember that whoever made that speech was practically a politician in how the speech was made. He avoided almost everything that was actually criticised and sold the reassurance that they are working around the clock to polish the game off.

There hasn't actually been an apology yet for the wealth of misinformation that was spun before release, such as Empire having the best AI yet, the AI having been worked on for 2 years alone by a dedicated team of AI'ers, no warning of most major bugs, etc. etc.

We know all games ship with bugs and i personally knew Empire was going to be a bit of a dump when i clicked on the purchase button, but i knew i'd still enjoy it and i am enjoying it, and i know that it's how game companies work... sell the games good points and don't tell a single soul that there is anything even remotely wrong with it, i know that's how business works and i don't mind that.

But what does bother me are lies, like the AI having been worked on more than any other TW game yet where it clearly, gleemingly has not been worked on any more than in Rome or M2. This is one lie i bought, because i thought they would have learned from the abysmal AI in Rome and M2, but no, the AI is still only as intelligent as a boiled egg.

So, having been deceived like that, i'm going to complain when i feel like it, as i am allowed to do so. I always do it in a respectful and true manner and make no personal attacks, so any responses to those complaints should also be respectful and contain no personal attacks.

Or we could all just stop complaining altogether, then CA will think we're happy to lay down and be walked all over and the next game will be just as poor quality when that is released too.

[Daveybaby]

The problem is, Dayve, that you think that this:

But what does bother me are lies, like the AI having been worked on more than any other TW game yet where it clearly, gleemingly has not been worked on any more than in Rome or M2. This is one lie i bought, because i thought they would have learned from the abysmal AI in Rome and M2, but no, the AI is still only as intelligent as a boiled egg.

is 'respectful and true'. Calling someone a liar (especially since i'm guessing you have no idea of the complexities involved in getting an AI to work right) because the game is buggy is in no way respectful. It's also not true - because as is common practice around here lately youre confusing your opinion with fact.

And you think that this:

I find it ridiculous that the game shipped with such horrendous bugs as soldiers turning to face the wrong way mid-battle, or entire units not being able to engage in combat because 1 soldier is stuck trying to climb over a fence. These kinds of bugs should never have made it through testing, and make me wonder if the game was even tested at all.

is 'a pretty harsh criticism, but a true one and a constructive one'. It's not constructive in any way, it's just moaning. In what way is repeating your complaints over and over at every opportunity (without offering any kind of solution) constructive?

I'm not singling you out here, it's just that youve handed me a perfect example of the difference between what some people think is 'reasonable' criticism and others just think is pointless whining and slagging.

Nobody here (nobody sane, anyway) thinks that the game is finished and perfect. That doesnt mean we want every thread derailed with the same complaints every time. We know youre not happy, we heard you the first time. And even if we didnt hear you the first time it's still there - that's one of the benefits of internet forums over telephone conversations.


@Andres: Thanks

[Fisherking]

I am not going to defend anyone. But I do think that some of the criticism is a bit overblown.

Everyone has an opinion and a point of view they are coming from and they are all a little different.

I see improvement in the AI over past games, but it doesn’t mean that it is all great.

I suspect that there is a lot it is supposed to be doing that it is not, for one reason or another. I have seen it do clever things a time or two and then not do much except attack straight ahead at other times.

Anyone thinking the game has no problems is not looking very deep but I don’t know that we were lied to.

Code changes and new builds can affect the way the AI works and not all the features seem exactly flawless. The building browser for instance seems almost useless. You cant click on anything there and go to it. It is just a list. Some times a particular item works one was if there are several entries and differently if there is only one. The Native American Factions all seem a bit too belligerent and my go from friendly to war in only a couple of turns. Understanding why a very friendly faction won’t trade is puzzling.

I suspect there are things not working as intended that we have hardly noticed…and I hope that doesn’t mean they won’t get fixed. Some examples might be; why do the Barbary Pirates never seem to leave the Mediterranean? Why does Russia seem to think it needs a huge navy but usually only builds galleys? Why don’t AI factions ever make peace with each other?

The game mechanics are not perfect and some are still having difficulties with crashes or features not working.

On the other hand some of the things that get criticized are like I said, a bit over stated. The features work, or are improvements but it is a matter of degrees. Flat statements which say that nothing works, or something is nonexistent are just over done and don’t really tell you anything.

People who are experiencing no problems may feel insulted a bit by posts like that, just as those who are experiencing difficulties feel angered when others say the game is just fine.

It hasn’t lived up to what I had hoped for, but it seems a decent enough game once the kinks are worked out…when ever that might be. I do see where it was a massive undertaking with almost everything changed.

I think a lot of what they have proposed to do is good, but I am skeptical of other parts.

The stability issues still have not been completely addressed and that needs to happen first.

Then we can see what they can make of the game.

Still, in the end there are those who love it and others who hate it. It was the same with Rome and maybe a bit more so with M2. It is nothing new.

I have taken lumps for post on either side of an issue and I don’t expect that to change.

[Dayve]

A lot of it is overblown, way overblown. If you listened to some people they'd have you believing the game doesn't even start up and that you can't go a single turn without having at least 30 CTD's, but not all of it, and yeah people keep complaining because their complaints are never acknowledged, only complained about.

Somebody complains, somebody complains about the complaining, nobody acknowledges anything. The only thing i see being acknowledged is that "The game isn't perfect". We know, nothing is perfect in the world, that doesn't ease anybody's frustrations though, when all CA ever say is "We're working on it" And "The game isn't perfect, we know".

We were told since news of the game was released that the AI was revolutionary and better than ever and had been worked on by a dedicated team, unlike previous games where the AI wasn't worked on in such an intense manner. I don't believe this, i think it's a lie, and when you look at how bad the AI is, it's not difficult to come to that conclusion. It's as intelligent as a boiled egg.

I can't offer anything constructive on how to improve that AI because i don't dedicate my life to working as a coding expert for AI in video games, but it was a barefaced lie. I still would have bought the game even if they'd told the truth and said that the AI was really no better than Rome or M2 because i love these games regardless of the AI, but i don't like being lied to.

[nafod]

Somebody complains, somebody complains about the complaining, nobody acknowledges anything. The only thing i see being acknowledged is that "The game isn't perfect". We know, nothing is perfect in the world, that doesn't ease anybody's frustrations though, when all CA ever say is "We're working on it" And "The game isn't perfect, we know".

1. I agree with Dayve on this point.

If one thinks the complainers are doing CA a disservice, telling them to go away and questioning why they even bought the game isn't exactly in CA's best interest either.

Truth is I didn't find the ORG until well after RTW was on the shelf never to be played again. And guess what? I had no porblem with how it functioned out of the box. I hear people say ETW's release is better than RTW and M2TW respective releases, but I had no porblems with either of these titles.

In fact of all the hours logged playing RTW the only things I disliked were that naval invasions seemed to be only scripted, Mediterranean fleet spam, and squalor leading one to not want to build farms.

M2TW seemed pretty good to me until I caught on to things that weren't working correctly via posts here at the org. In fact the only bitterness that remains for me about M2TW is that they got things right with Kingdoms, but didn't address the Grand Campaign.

I've learned alot from the bughunters here, and hope they continue to bring these things to light.

Besides what entertainment would a bunch of threads about how great and fun this game is provide?

[Fisherking]

Believe me, if they said the AI was like M2 I don’t think I would have spent the money.

But it does seem better. It isn’t Alexander the Great but it doesn’t have to be to be better than M2.

They don’t stand there until they are all dead getting shot to pieces. I had at least one effective ambush pulled on me with two stacks hitting me back and front before I could deploy.

Granted most of the few battles I have lost, I was out numbered three to one but in M2 those were good odds unless there was an elephant in the crowd.

Most aspects of the game are better than M2TW.

The battle AI does not seem to be playing at the level they said it would but that doesn’t mean it is not better than that of the past games.

Focusing so much on one part glosses over most of the more serious problems.

This game for sure has had more serious stability issues then the last two and it still dose.

I believe they will get them fixed, and soon I hope. Not to fix them would likely mean the end for the franchise, as most of the problems seem to be on rigs that are well above minimum standards.

[nafod]

You also have to love how whenever someone posts a CTD issue every fan immediately swings into defence of CA and feels the need to educate every poster on the ABC's of owning a computer.

To an extent this seems helpful, but given any retort the ensuing discussion results in a flamefest.

To be fair my comp probably doesn't even meet minimum specs but I can run everything flawlessly on High. This doesn't mean those with problems have hardware or configuration errors. Especially when the error arises from activating a certain unit.

[pevergreen]

Have you not yet heard of the mysterious cult of the default avatar users?

Wait. you're back to Caravel?

Don't do that to me! I look at that avatar, and I think "tribesy".

You're throwing me off!

[Tsavong]

What I find disturbing is that as people have expressed themselves either with frustration or elation about aspects of the game there seems to be a little group (possibly cult) of members who see it as their duty to shut down any criticism of the product (yes it is a product after all) or those who made it.

What I find annoying is people who derail topics discussing the game to go on a self serving rant about how they don't like the game and how CA infringed there rights etc. Wall they are in titled to say that I just wish they would not go around spamming threads about other things when there are many threads where they can rant away.

Free Speech - Some people just don't like it

Well apparently you are one of the 'cult' anti free speech as you don't seem to want people to put a counter argument to people complaining.

Perhaps you should start a back room topic about Free Speech.

[Didz]

One has to be very careful anyway when talking about 'Free Speech'. In practice, no society or community can afford to allow its members to say literally anything they like. Thats why we have laws for 'slander' and 'libel', and why with the new invented political excuse of 'Threat of Terrorism' we are no longer allowed to talk freely about a lot of things our governments don't like us discussing.

There is no doubt that some of the posts on ETW have crossed the line beyond the bounds of what is socially acceptable under the banner of 'Free Speech', and unfortunately people in general who try to play the 'Free Speech' card are often arguing for the right to immunity from social obligation.

There is no doubt that some people are having problems playing this game, what would be more constructive is to try and work out why. Or more to the point 'Why them and not us'.

[Turbosatan]

There is no doubt that some people are having problems playing this game, what would be more constructive is to try and work out why. Or more to the point 'Why them and not us'.

Wise words in general there Didz, but that last paragaph is the clincher for me.

Is it some built-in compatibility issue with the game? Motherboard drivers? The colour of the case? There's so many variables when it comes to PCs (both soft- & hardware). Then there's the setup of the rig in question...

It boggles my mind that the thing works on anything.

[Fisherking]

Wise words in general there Didz, but that last paragaph is the clincher for me.

Is it some built-in compatibility issue with the game? Motherboard drivers? The colour of the case? There's so many variables when it comes to PCs (both soft- & hardware). Then there's the setup of the rig in question...

It boggles my mind that the thing works on anything.

LOL!

Had Apple licensed their OS we wouldn’t have this problem!

But we are stuck with the IBM and Microsoft legacy.

It was apparent even in the days of DOS that running a new game was always going to be a headache.

Every one was a new exercise in patience as you tried to revamp the config.sys to get it to run. Now we can’t even do that.

Most problems are system problems. But publishers have to address them and it does take time.

[Beskar]

Have you not yet heard of the mysterious cult of the default avatar users?

Hah, the funniest thing about it, it looks like they are wearing a fetish mask. So the joke is always on them.

[Dutch_guy]

This game for sure has had more serious stability issues then the last two and it still dose.

I disagree. In my opinion, having played all the games with the exception of Shogun and having been here reading these boards for years now, this game is an improvement over Rome and M2.

The stability seems to vary from player to player. As for me, I haven't had a single CTD yet.

ETW also doesn't have the truly game breaking memory leak (M2) and save game bug (Rome) previous games have had which truly warrant the reactions some people on these boards have reserved for ETW.

Vanilla ETW is surprisingly finished for a released Total War game. It has its issues, numerous issues, but it is unquestionably in a better state at release than M2 and Rome. Not to mention it simply being a better game than both with regards to gameplay, depth and even AI.

[Greyblades]

Hah, the funniest thing about it, it looks like they are wearing a fetish mask. So the joke is always on them.

And have you seen the ears? They look like mutated versions of Peter jacksons elves.

[Konig Prasatko]

What I find annoying is people who derail topics discussing the game to go on a self serving rant about how they don't like the game and how CA infringed there rights etc. Wall they are in titled to say that I just wish they would not go around spamming threads about other things when there are many threads where they can rant away.


Well apparently you are one of the 'cult' anti free speech as you don't seem to want people to put a counter argument to people complaining.

Perhaps you should start a back room topic about Free Speech.

Zerg, you have not understood what I though was clearly stated. I am not against people putting up a counter argument but rather I'm against flamming anyone who expresses their view positive or negative. There are general principals that govern a forum such as avoiding taking a thread off topic, swearing etc I'm sure the owners/moderators of this forum support the principal that people should be allowed an opinion and that nobody should be attacked for that opinion.

If you want to be padantic or absolute about free speech then to be free we can all swear, abuse, be racist or talk about molesting children. So in that respect their is no free speech in western societies or this forum.

Zerg most members appreciate and agree with my OP and if you object to the words free speech you can replace them with 'Forum principals' if that helps you grasp what I'm on about.

[Beskar]

Had Apple licensed their OS we wouldn’t have this problem!

We would. Apple OS is only so stable because Apple themselves produce the machines for it to run on and there is no variation at all between the computers hardly. The fact is, if Apple OS licensed it, their work load would instantly skyrocket and they would actually lose business as people would realise that is the whole "stability" argument is a bad one.

Mac advertise a lot of things, to say they are superior to Windows, it is actually amusing. In the adverts "We don't get many viruses, it is because we are better." the answer isn't that, the real answer is "We don't get many viruses as less than 4% of Computer users actually use a Mac OS." If you was writing a virus, to scam people, would you target 96% of the population or 4%? It is common sense.

As a note, I used to be a Mac user, so I know from experience they are extremely overrated. I used to love the old adverts where they said their processers were 5 times superior to Intel's processor, often comparing the two for years upon years in their adverts, the they launched the Intel Mac saying "They are better than ever."

[Nebuchadnezzar]

One has to be very careful anyway when talking about 'Free Speech'. In practice, no society or community can afford to allow its members to say literally anything they like. Thats why we have laws for 'slander' and 'libel', and why with the new invented political excuse of 'Threat of Terrorism' we are no longer allowed to talk freely about a lot of things our governments don't like us discussing.

There is no doubt that some of the posts on ETW have crossed the line beyond the bounds of what is socially acceptable under the banner of 'Free Speech', and unfortunately people in general who try to play the 'Free Speech' card are often arguing for the right to immunity from social obligation.

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

It may also be socially acceptable for manufacurers (in particular software/games) to sell defective products and consumers to accept them but nevertheless it is both irresponsible & unscrupulous. Just which sewer did their social obligations disappear to mmm?

Anyone??

[Turbosatan]

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

It may also be socially acceptable for manufacurers (in particular software/games) to sell defective products and consumers to accept them but nevertheless it is both irresponsible & unscrupulous. Just which sewer did their social obligations disappear to mmm?

Anyone??

I give you the godlike Bill Hicks:

"If anyone here is in advertising or marketing... Kill yourselves.

Seriously though, if you are, do. THere is no rationalisation for what you do & you are Satan's little helpers. Okay? Kill yourselves. Seriously. You are the ruiners of all things good."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

A touch overblown when applying Bill to videogames -- after all, marketing & advertising helps destroy the environment, people's lives, their mental health, their self-esteem, damage gender/race relations, increases tension within communities, & generally pollutes the world with slick noisome waste that clogs up your brain & drains you of your humanity & compassion -- but I think the general thrust of the man's argument is what we should be taking away here.

[Trapped in Samsara]

Hi

For a number of years, not so long ago, I did desktop support for a very large media company which used a mix of Macs and PCs. The contention that the former are very stable, don't fail catastrophically, etc. is, in my experience, utterly without foundation.

Regards
VGB

[Didz]

And yet companies continue to exercise their right of 'Free Speech' to use trickery, lies and deception to sell their products! Oh yes, I know that this is illegal in some countries but unfortunately most people don't have a few 100k lying about to bring it to court to enforce it.

Very true....I'm still angry with Blizzard for the way it conned 3,000 European customers into paying for a collector edition which they knew to be faulty. That was a flagrant breach of European Trade Standards Legislation, but they got away with it, despite my best attempts to get them investigated and fined.

[Veresov]

I wonder how you can possibly be "constructive" when the game crashes consistently. When I read on the .COM about all the different bugs and posts in the Tech Help Forum that largely go unanswered by Creative Assembly.

I don't ask the fanboys that can run this game to criticize the game and neither should they ask me to compliment (or offer constructive criticism for) a game that will not. The fact that CA is addressing all the stability issues proves the point that the game that the problems I am experiencing (and others) is due to buggy software. I purchased Empire to play it not to wait around for a stupid patch for 6 weeks+.

The most constructive thing I feel that I can do in view of my experience with this game is to discourage anyone who is contempting purchasing this game.

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I give you the godlike Bill Hicks:

"If anyone here is in advertising or marketing... Kill yourselves.

Seriously though, if you are, do. THere is no rationalisation for what you do & you are Satan's little helpers. Okay? Kill yourselves. Seriously. You are the ruiners of all things good."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDW_Hj2K0wo

A touch overblown when applying Bill to videogames -- after all, marketing & advertising helps destroy the environment, people's lives, their mental health, their self-esteem, damage gender/race relations, increases tension within communities, & generally pollutes the world with slick noisome waste that clogs up your brain & drains you of your humanity & compassion -- but I think the general thrust of the man's argument is what we should be taking away here.

lol...
In fact I am directly involved in marketing and know all too well how deceptive it can be. Many times encroaching legal boundaries (and god forbid sometimes even passing them) but I don't intend to kill myself, at least not yet.

My point being was that as individuals we are always reminded of our social and moral obligations yet buisinesses seem to escape it (or circumvent it).

[Namarie22]

On almost a side note, only in the gaming industry do we let things like this fly though...

Imagine if E:TW was a brick and mortar product....


I know we customers have helped to create the "get the patch" thinking, but dang, I once had hopes that not every single game would need serious patching before it was like announced, or previewed.

It must totaly suck to be without internet nowadays if you play computer games.. :D