Swords in the Moon [Concluded]

[TinCow]

Sasaki duels can be a tool for both town and for mafia. If we assume that the Ninjas/ traitors have high battle values. Townie can identify one by sacrificing himself in a duel. But even in that case he might have found an anti town person, but just as well he might have got himself killed by swordmaster, whom should have very high duel value as well. In the conclusion sacrificing a townie for peculiar results seems not very powerful tool for the town. This method kills townies, which is a bad thing. Also in case a townie challenges a swordmaster and looses, it creates pressure to lynch a pro town role.

On the other hand, if we assume that someone who is anti town goes around challenging other based on light reasons, protected by his high duel value. For such person that strategy only creates benefit. First each dead townie is good thing for mafia and second if he looses to a swordmaster. His partners know who to aim for the next night.

Based on these things you are very high up in my suspect list, specially with you challenging again this round. It seems that you have high stats, because you are looking for challenges with much eagerness. I have serious dobts that you would play that way if you would be a swordmaster, because in that case you would become immediately an assasination target. Thus you seem more then scummy to me.

I completely agree with your analysis of the usefulness of dueling. I have never seen it as remotely pro-town in any manner with the possible exception of an end-game scenario with multiple known mafioso. However, I've been in two other games with dueling: Midgard 2 and Settlement. In both of those games numerous townies fought or tried to fight duels. For whatever reason, dueling appears to appeal to townies even though it hurts the town.

[Yaropolk]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Poor excuse for a retaliation vote...but no matter:



Beskar's case doesn't make much sense to me either. Seems to be relying solely on assumptions about when kills were sent in.

The above exchange weirds me out though...

Duels are fun, you should know that





Unvote:Yarapolk
Vote:AggonyDuck

Doesn't seem like him, and the exchange above indicates an in game connection to me. Especially stephen's "I don't know".

Ok


Unvote: Sasaki
Vote: AggonyDuck

[Andres]

Sorry, the thread is simply unwieldingly large. I remembered reading some useful comments about working out the system behind the killings, but didn't quite recall where and of what nature.

I've added it in, thanks.


That does it.

Challenge: Andres. Let's test his worth in the only manly way possible. In battle.

Monsieur wishes to challenge THE INFALLIBLE

Come, come, I'll pretend like I didn't see that one and I'll leave the ligthning bolts and earthquakes stored in my basement for now

Silly humans

[Gregoshi]

OOC: It is rather interesting listening to everyone's reasons or lack thereof. There have been some impressive deductions (from my point of view) gleaned from Andres' write-ups (which are great BTW ). It gives me an idea of what to look for. I didn't realize the game could get so deep.

Regarding player interaction, I've got mixed feelings. While the Vets can certainly use their experience to dig for evidence in what we are saying or not saying, or saying too scummily or too forcefully, it seems that they are hampered by their reputation from prior games. This meta-gaming knowledge is unavailable to us noobies, but I'm not sure I see that as a negative at the moment. The charge/counter-charge seems pointless as each side picks apart the words and their imagined meanings of the other. Pointless, that is, unless that is a game tactic to get someone talking in the hopes they make a real, and major mistake/reveal.

Anyway, there's interesting dynamics going on and I think I'm beginning to catch on a little. Maybe by game's end (assuming I live that long) I might - just might - be able to contribute something that, while impressive to me, will have been obvious to you all for two game days.

IC:

[FactionHeir]

Could blame Andres for not sticking to the deadline, that is not my fault, rather the hosts. Naughty Andres. (I love you really Andres <3333 don't give me bad random rolls)

The only reason you could get bad random rolls is if you had a role.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Sasaki duels can be a tool for both town and for mafia. If we assume that the Ninjas/ traitors have high battle values. Townie can identify one by sacrificing himself in a duel. But even in that case he might have found an anti town person, but just as well he might have got himself killed by swordmaster, whom should have very high duel value as well. In the conclusion sacrificing a townie for peculiar results seems not very powerful tool for the town. This method kills townies, which is a bad thing. Also in case a townie challenges a swordmaster and looses, it creates pressure to lynch a pro town role.

On the other hand, if we assume that someone who is anti town goes around challenging other based on light reasons, protected by his high duel value. For such person that strategy only creates benefit. First each dead townie is good thing for mafia and second if he looses to a swordmaster. His partners know who to aim for the next night.

Based on these things you are very high up in my suspect list, specially with you challenging again this round. It seems that you have high stats, because you are looking for challenges with much eagerness. I have serious dobts that you would play that way if you would be a swordmaster, because in that case you would become immediately an assasination target. Thus you seem more then scummy to me.

I disagree entirely. Now, if you really think that a swordmaster would not look for challenges then you must disagree with your own suspicions as well. Because we have multiple mafia factions, and to be revealed as good with the blade would make a mafioso an assassination target as well.

It's simple really: if you have good reason to suspect someone, it's a pro town move to challenge them. If you win, you remove a suspect (same as lynching) or kill a mafioso. If you lose you lose, maybe revealing your opponent to have a high score. With the mafia knocking off 3 or 4 of their own choosing every night the town needs greater killing power as well.

Of course...my ibn challenge was because of his namby pamby "watch out or I might challenge you!" post for which he clearly deserved to die

[Sasaki Kojiro]

The only reason you could get bad random rolls is if you had a role.

Or fought a duel...though I still have my eye on beskar.

[AggonyDuck]

I disagree entirely. Now, if you really think that a swordmaster would not look for challenges then you must disagree with your own suspicions as well. Because we have multiple mafia factions, and to be revealed as good with the blade would make a mafioso an assassination target as well.

It's simple really: if you have good reason to suspect someone, it's a pro town move to challenge them. If you win, you remove a suspect (same as lynching) or kill a mafioso. If you lose you lose, maybe revealing your opponent to have a high score. With the mafia knocking off 3 or 4 of their own choosing every night the town needs greater killing power as well.

Of course...my ibn challenge was because of his namby pamby "watch out or I might challenge you!" post for which he clearly deserved to die

Well the problem is that it really doesn't reveal that your opponent has a higher score due to the fact that there is the random quality added to it all, so that a lower skilled fighter can kill a better one with luck.

[TinCow]

If you lose you lose, maybe revealing your opponent to have a high score.

This only works if we know the approximate duel score of the person who lost. Care to share yours?

[Kagemusha]

I disagree entirely. Now, if you really think that a swordmaster would not look for challenges then you must disagree with your own suspicions as well. Because we have multiple mafia factions, and to be revealed as good with the blade would make a mafioso an assassination target as well.

It's simple really: if you have good reason to suspect someone, it's a pro town move to challenge them. If you win, you remove a suspect (same as lynching) or kill a mafioso. If you lose you lose, maybe revealing your opponent to have a high score. With the mafia knocking off 3 or 4 of their own choosing every night the town needs greater killing power as well.

Of course...my ibn challenge was because of his namby pamby "watch out or I might challenge you!" post for which he clearly deserved to die

Swordmaster looking for challenges would be painting a big red crosshair over himself. Not exactly best way to do his job, which is protecting his lord. If townies would not challenge each other over light excuses, challenging, unless made under consus of majority would become scummy, thus taking a large weapon out of the mafia´s arsenal. I know you know better then what you are trying to sell here.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Well the problem is that it really doesn't reveal that your opponent has a higher score due to the fact that there is the random quality added to it all, so that a lower skilled fighter can kill a better one with luck.

Given last nights duel, it's fairly descriptive. But yeah, I wouldn't trust them entirely. Information is possible though.

This only works if we know the approximate duel score of the person who lost. Care to share yours?

I'll send it to CountArach if it's allowed. Anyway...25 is the score I claim.

Swordmaster looking for challenges would be painting a big red crosshair over himself. Not exactly best way to do his job, which is protecting his lord. If townies would not challenge each other over light excuses, challenging, unless made under consus of majority would become scummy, thus taking a large weapon out of the mafia´s arsenal. I know you know better then what you are trying to sell here.

You contradicted yourself and ignored the part where I pointed that out. Do you object to the death of either me or AggonyDuck?

[Beskar]

Or fought a duel...though I still have my eye on beskar.

(the bolded is the correct statement)

People are trying to pick logic from a man with multiple personalities and trying to pull assumptions from complete thin-air with no proof. As I already said, there are differences from myself and my IC character, so trying to gleam anything is pointless. Such as FactionHeir trying to say when I must have a role for a roll, when it was obviously talking about a duel.

Currently, only argument on here with any merits is mine on Stephen and as I said it isn't perfect, but it is far more accurate any arguments depicting me as a Mafia-role member.

[AggonyDuck]

Given last nights duel, it's fairly descriptive. But yeah, I wouldn't trust them entirely. Information is possible though.




I'll send it to CountArach if it's allowed. Anyway...25 is the score I claim.

edit: op doesn't specify, but I assume I can't.



You contradicted yourself and ignored the part where I pointed that out. Do you object to the death of either me or AggonyDuck?

I atleast object to my death as it means that the yashiki will have one less innocent man!

[Beskar]

Page 21's table -


Stephen Asen 10 Beskar, El Diablo, LittleGrizzly, Gregoshi, Reenk Roink, pevergreen, Tristan de Castelreng, Beefy187, Captain Blackadder, CountArach

Sigurd 6 Louis the Fat, KukriKhan, TinCow, Chimpyang, AggonyDuck, Quintus.JC

Beskar 4 Stephen Asen, Kagemusha, Death is yonder, atheotes

AggonyDuck 2 Sasaki Kojir, Yaropolk

Sasaki Kojir 1 LittleGrizzly
TinCow 1 YLC
TosaInu 1 Thermal Mercury
YLC 1 Glenn
Ignoramus 1 Ichigo
Yaropolk 1 woad&fangs

Abstain 4 Rhyfelwyr, Ignoramus, FactionHeir


Argument against Stephen Asen

[TinCow]

I'll send it to CountArach if it's allowed.

Not a bad idea actually. If everyone listed in a duel challenge sent their (claimed) duel scores to CountArach, we might be able to build something useful out of the results.

[Yaropolk]

Page 21's table -


Stephen Asen 11 Beskar, El Diablo, LittleGrizzly, Gregoshi, Reenk Roink, pevergreen, AggonyDuck, Tristan de Castelreng, Beefy187, Captain Blackadder, CountArach

Beskar 4 Stephen Asen, Kagemusha, Death is yonder, atheotes

Sigurd 3 Louis the Fat, KukriKhan, TinCow

AggonyDuck 2 Sasaki Kojir, Yaropolk

TinCow 1 YLC
TosaInu 1 Thermal Mercury
YLC 1 Glenn
Sasaki 1 Yaropolk
Ignoramus 1 Ichigo
Yaropolk 1 woad&fangs

Abstain 4 Rhyfelwyr, Ignoramus, FactionHeir, Chimpyang


Argument against Stephen Asen

You've got me listed twice on here - I unvoted Sasaki, and voted for AggonyDuck.

Btw, is someone keeping track of challenges?

[Beskar]

You've got me listed twice on here - I unvoted Sasaki, and voted for AggonyDuck.

Btw, is someone keeping track of challenges?

Oops, fixed.

[Kagemusha]

You contradicted yourself and ignored the part where I pointed that out. Do you object to the death of either me or AggonyDuck?

Where is the contradiction. You are just trying to defend untaneable position after being caught of anti town behaviour. Im not objecting anyones death in particular. I am telling you that challenging lightly is scummy behaviour, because loss of townies is not a good thing. Do not try to twist my words.

[atheotes]

Btw, is someone keeping track of challenges?

Andres, will pick (randomly ofcourse ) one of the first four valid challenges that were posted.

[Quintus.JC]

Never played with Beskar before, but he appears to talk a lot, that means he probably have role, good or bad.

FOS: Beskar

Challenge: Beskar

Vote: Sigurd

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Where is the contradiction. You are just trying to defend untaneable position after being caught of anti town behaviour. Im not objecting anyones death in particular. I am telling you that challenging lightly is scummy behaviour, because loss of townies is not a good thing. Do not try to twist my words.

"If you were a swordsman, you would not paint a target on yourself, because one of the mafia groups would kill you. Therefore you are not a swordsman"

This was your logic. Now replace "swordsman" with "mafioso" and the same logic holds. Ergo, to claim that I could not be the swordsman but can be mafia is contradiction. Why do you say that duck is a townie? How can you claim that I knew what ducks score was?

[Chimpyang]

I'm guessing he';s accusing you of being shinobi - which would suggest a detective role - we've had 2 night phases and 1 day phase - so the detective will have had time to investigate 1 person at least

I wish to hear more from Sigurd :

Unvote : Abstain . Vote : Sigurd

[GeneralHankerchief]

As has been noted, I'm currently busy running a PvP battle in the Throne Room, which takes priority for me in terms of the .Org. It's also around finals time for me in RL, which takes priority, period. I'm doing my best to keep up but I may have to ask for clarification/conciseness in the thread on issues that have already been fleshed out.

Challenge: Beefy

That said, what is the main case on Stephen Asen?

[LittleGrizzly]

Unvote Stephen Asen
Vote Sasaki

I would ask my loyal samurai to change thier votes as well if possible..

That bandwagon is a huge conversation killing machine and quite easy to get behind, the main reason for that is its probably one of the better cases available to get behind, as there doesn't seem to be much going for anything else...

that said

Midgard 2 and Settlement. In both of those games numerous townies fought or tried to fight duels. For whatever reason, dueling appears to appeal to townies even though it hurts the town.

Dueling usually works out bad for the town... and you are very enthusiastic for the challenge... maybe not scummy but not paticularly helpful...

(that and spreading the votes out a bit more would help things...)

Im not too sure about the suspicion on Beskar.. the main reason i would suspect him is because is because he's making a fairly decent well thought out case... but that doesn't seem like a good reason to lynch him..

Edit: I also have to admit i don't like massively bandwagoning a new player on the 2nd round... feels a bit nasty..

[Beskar]

Never played with Beskar before, but he appears to talk a lot, that means he probably have role, good or bad.

Because when you have a role, you instantly try to not stand out by talking all the time, right?

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Because when you have a role, you instantly try to not stand out by talking all the time, right?

WIFOM

[Beskar]

Because role-less people aren't playing the game, therefore they can't talk. Ta-dam-dush.
(Well, shouldn't talk anyway)

[Kagemusha]

"If you were a swordsman, you would not paint a target on yourself, because one of the mafia groups would kill you. Therefore you are not a swordsman"

This was your logic. Now replace "swordsman" with "mafioso" and the same logic holds. Ergo, to claim that I could not be the swordsman but can be mafia is contradiction. Why do you say that duck is a townie? How can you claim that I knew what ducks score was?

The priority for any mafia would be taking out the town first, loosing a member in the process is an expendible loss. If you are pro town, you should not have any desire to increase the kill count. Your encouraging behaviour that protects mafia is scummy. Are you indeed claiming to be a swordmaster?Where did i say that i was convinced that Duckie was a townie?

I said that i found Duckie suspicious, because of his light reasons for lynching Stephen. But for me your bloodthirsty attitude seems lot more scummy then anything he said. If you claim to be a swordsmaster who is pumping up his duel value by killing anyone crossing your path, then you are counterproductive to say the least.

[AggonyDuck]

"If you were a swordsman, you would not paint a target on yourself, because one of the mafia groups would kill you. Therefore you are not a swordsman"

This was your logic. Now replace "swordsman" with "mafioso" and the same logic holds. Ergo, to claim that I could not be the swordsman but can be mafia is contradiction. Why do you say that duck is a townie? How can you claim that I knew what ducks score was?

I think Kage means that challenges should be as seriously contemplated as lynching due to the fact, that if you get it wrong an innocent townie will die and that is a bad thing for the town. Dueling should only be reserved for moments when there are two very clear suspects, as it could kill both suspects or kill one and provide information of the other. I am certain of my innocence, so I definately see your challenge as a bad one for the yashiki, so I pray to the kami that our duel is not selected.

[Prince Cobra]

I am indeed insulted because it seems all of those who voted underestimate the intelligence. I always prefered lurking than taking part of this waste of words. It was a mistake to step out and say anything. Let's be silent sheep waiting for the assassins to find them. Anyway, as my destiny seems to be sealed, I will compose my final death poem.

To the people who vote abstain. The game leaves little place for this option. The traitors and assaissins are six people and their influence on the vote session is immense (esp. that of the ninjas). Better vote for the wrong person (like me or anybody you (don't) like) but don't stay idle.

I am still unaware of the reason I was picked out but if Lord Takeda wishes my death, I have no option but to submit.

+ I also find something indeed interesting in the way Beskar follows my downfall.