Margaret Thatcher: Thirty years on

[HoreTore]

The only choice was heartless or social transition. Was Thatcher's choice of heartlessness right? I'll throw all the Thatcherites a bone. Within Europe's 'core', there are two other contemporaneous examples of transitions of regions who have similar outdated traditional industries combined with socialized welfare. These are Wallonia and Eastern Germany. Both chose the 'gradual, social' path to economic transition. Both failed, fail to this day. Despite continuous heavy support from the functioning part of the economy of their countries - Flanders in Belgium and the West in Germany - the transition is simply not coming about. This would suggest that going cold turkey is the viable option. Alas.

You're forgetting that we've taken the gradual choice successfully here in Scandinavia.

[rory_20_uk]

I hope this is countries aside from Norway, which since it floats on oil barely needs a financial model. The odd threat to Middle East supply is enough.

Gradual change might have worked. I'm sure what was done was not 100% efficient.

D-Day landings worked. I've heard it said that 30% of allied casualties were caused by allied bombs and shells.

[InsaneApache]

I was around at that time and I still have vivid memories of it. They say the past is another country and when I look back it couldn't be more true. The unions had the country in a headlock and were squeezing the life out of the economy.

I remember getting my first job. The first day at work I was approached by a harriden of a shop steward who asked me if I was in the union. When I told her that I wasn't, I was told in no uncertain terms that if I wanted to keep my job, (I'd only been there five minutes), then I'd have to join the union. "It's a closed shop see, we won't have any blacklegs working here, so join or go!"

Needless to say I joined. Then I found out that even though I was too young to vote, a significant part of my union subs was being paid to the Labour party due to the levy. At least Dick Turpin had the decency to wear a mask when he was robbing you.

Then there was the public sector. In those days if you wanted a telephone there was only one kid on the block. Post Office Telecommunications. You go to see them about having a phone installed. Yes you can have one but it's going to take six months to install the line. Don't like it? Then do without. Oh I nearly forgot you got a choice of 'phone. They were all indentical except one was red, one was white, one was bottle green and the last one was a fetching grey two tone. They all looked like something out of a WWII movie.

The winter of discontent did for the labour Party for a generation. You had to live through it to truly appreciate the horror of the time. Buses, on strike. Gravediggers, on strike. Binmen, on strike. Hauliers, on strike. I had to go on strike in sympathy with some blokes down the road who'd gone on strike. Were we asked? Not bloody likely. No vote, no discussion, just do as your told or risk becoming a blackleg. Nice. Don't you just love socialism in practice.

Thatcher was elected to clear out the Augean Stables of the Labour/Union alliance. By and large she suceeded. Thank god.

[JAG]

Let us forget the economic side for a second, because to a certain degree even though she did an inumerable amount of harm and disgusting acts - there were some good by products, such as getting rid of industries which would have been destroyed sooner or later by globalisation. The manner in which she did nothing for the lives of the people she turfed out of these industries is possibly her most damning act.

But as I said, forget her whole economic persuasion and look at the social legacy she has left the country. It could very well be said that the significant social problems we have now in modern Britain are directly caused by her disasterous social policy. The greed and me, me, me society she fostered, coupeld with the enabling of sink estates and gated communities. The selling off of council, community housing, destroying the ability of councils to house the most vulnerable. The dependence culture she fostered - it is alright to yell at people and get rid of most of their benefits and insist they get a job, but if there is a) no job to go to and b) no help in gaining skills for a job or better ways of gaining employment - then people give up and sink further and further into the mire, taking generations with them.

It is the social legacy she has left, especially in inner cities which may never get fixed. The Labour govt has tried to tinker around the edges and it has helped a little bit, but the problem is now that it is such an epidemic, it will only continue to get worse. That is her legacy. Millions of people in this country will never have a chance at social justice and social mobility no matter who is in govt, because of her time in power and the philosophy she infected onto our politics and Rory, to say those who don't like her and think she was not good for this country are "selfish", is the ultimate insult.

[HoreTore]

I hope this is countries aside from Norway, which since it floats on oil barely needs a financial model. The odd threat to Middle East supply is enough.

Screw Norway, look at Sweden instead.

[rory_20_uk]

The really horrible tower blocks were built before her. The idealistic thoughts that these would become vertical communities not crime ridden dens.

I am sure you are aware of the phrase she took the unemployed off the factory floor. This could / should have been done 10 or even 20 years previously. This failure to try to curtail the Union's power made things as bad as they were.

There was not enough retraining, but the other problem was that for many manual workers there is no job that could sustain them at the level they thought they deserved. East Asia was prepared to do as good or better job for less.

Some could be retrained, but in to what? The salaries would be low in the new industries due to supply and demand. This doesn't alter the fact that these measures wern't even tried in the majority of cases. Whether the coseted union members would have been able to "demean" themselves to this is another matter.

Y'know, if there are no jobs you can create them. It's called the Private Sector. You provide a service that people want which is better in some way than others. Seeing as how job protection and failure to innovate was so endemic I imagine that this concept was barely thought of by the vast mass of people.

I would argue that the benefits was the thing that allowed people to descend into an unemployed rut. In many places in the world you work or you starve - so you look for work, you find something to do and you get on with life. Not in the UK. You blame others, take the dole, wish for the days when your rights were wall to wall and blame everything for what happened to your life on others and are to ill informed to see how unsunstainable things were.

In America people are happy for success, and hope to get there themselves some day. Here we tear into anyone that achieves, trying to drown them in mediocrity, health and safety and red tape.

Jag putting oneself in front of the country is selfish.

[Furunculus]

But as I said, forget her whole economic persuasion and look at the social legacy she has left the country. It could very well be said that the significant social problems we have now in modern Britain are directly caused by her disasterous social policy. The greed and me, me, me society she fostered, coupeld with the enabling of sink estates and gated communities. The selling off of council, community housing, destroying the ability of councils to house the most vulnerable. The dependence culture she fostered - it is alright to yell at people and get rid of most of their benefits and insist they get a job, but if there is a) no job to go to and b) no help in gaining skills for a job or better ways of gaining employment - then people give up and sink further and further into the mire, taking generations with them.

It is the social legacy she has left, especially in inner cities which may never get fixed. The Labour govt has tried to tinker around the edges and it has helped a little bit, but the problem is now that it is such an epidemic, it will only continue to get worse. That is her legacy. Millions of people in this country will never have a chance at social justice and social mobility no matter who is in govt, because of her time in power and the philosophy she infected onto our politics and Rory, to say those who don't like her and think she was not good for this country are "selfish", is the ultimate insult.

there are lots of working class people who have voted tory ever since thatcher in thanks for being able to own their own home, the prosperity is created changed their lives.

dependancy culture arises when you tax heavily from the poor then give a portion of that money back back to the poor, its called the client state, it was 'perfected by nu-labour, and its disgusting.

[rory_20_uk]

Screw Norway, look at Sweden instead.

I imagine that if we'd started to drift this way in the early 1950's the transition might have been relatively painless. I think we were still rebuilding parts of the country then of course post WW2.

[Vladimir]

I imagine that if we'd started to drift this way in the early 1950's the transition might have been relatively painless. I think we were still rebuilding parts of the country then of course post WW2.

Which is a good point. It seems like most people here aren't factoring in the devastation caused by the war and the subsequent rebuilding efforts.

[tibilicus]

Thatcher was a tale of two halves..

Whilst doing a great deal to change a lot in our fair country, she also made some horrible decisions. For a start, the manner in which she completely ignored her cabinet did her no favours, Thatcher thought she knew best when really she didn't. Her terrible guidance over the NI troubles was also an issue, she certainly didn't help ease the situation over there. Another bad point for me was the way she threw her foreign policy around like the British were still a world player, no doubt Thatcher tried to hold onto the remaining British colonies with all she could. The Falklands isn't such a big issue for me, all the sinking of the Belgrano was..

Edit:

Can't believe I forgot the poll tax. Nothing has to be said about that other than it was one of the biggest political backfires of the modern era. An attempt to tighten the control of the conservative party even more ultimately failed.

[Che Roriniho]

Here's to 30 years of greed!

Hear Hear! The thing is with Thatcher, is she and Reagan decided that Trickle-down economics actually worked, somehow. They are, what we call in conversation, idiots.

[Vladimir]

Hear Hear! The thing is with Thatcher, is she and Reagan decided that Trickle-down economics actually worked, somehow. They are, what we call in conversation, idiots.

No doubt that is considered spirited debate in those circles.

[Strike For The South]

This is the one that beat the hell out of Argentina for those islands with all the seals on them right?

[InsaneApache]

Yes. Penguins though, not seals.

[Furunculus]

Thatcher was a tale of two halves..

Her terrible guidance over the NI troubles was also an issue, she certainly didn't help ease the situation over there. Another bad point for me was the way she threw her foreign policy around like the British were still a world player, no doubt Thatcher tried to hold onto the remaining British colonies with all she could. The Falklands isn't such a big issue for me, all the sinking of the Belgrano was..

What was bad about her handling of NI?

What was bad about her handling of foreign policy? The two biggies were Cruise/Pershing and the Falklands?
And your disparaging remarks about the falklands totally belie the fact that it was sovereign british territory, the inhabitants of which wished to remain british. The belgrano was an enemy warship, which threatened a very precarious military mission to recover british territory and subjects from an invading aggressor, i would have sunk the ship, whats your problem with it?
The final point i'll make about the falklands is that it allegedly discredited the KGB in the eyes of the politiburo for their bad call on the reaction to the falklands invasion, which in my opinion is a magnificient occurance, confusion to your enemies and all that.

[Furunculus]

Hear Hear! The thing is with Thatcher, is she and Reagan decided that Trickle-down economics actually worked, somehow. They are, what we call in conversation, idiots.

And yet Britain became so much wealthier, including a vast number of the working-class who became middle-class as a result of her policies............

[HoreTore]

And your disparaging remarks about the falklands totally belie the fact that it was sovereign british territory, the inhabitants of which wished to remain british.

But still... Who cares?

Who honestly care about some barren, irrelevant island on the other side of the world? Oh right, british right-wingers do...

[Furunculus]

what, british people cared what happened to other british people, with regards foreign military invasion? AMAZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111111111111111ONEONEONEONEONEONEONE

[edit] aside from the obvious that even the left-wing must have cared just a little about about what happened to other brits given the election boost that thatcher allegedly received from her foreign military 'adventure'.

can you imagine that, people giving a damn about something other than your glorious world government, how irrational![/edit]

[tibilicus]

What was bad about her handling of NI?

What was bad about her handling of foreign policy? The two biggies were Cruise/Pershing and the Falklands?
And your disparaging remarks about the falklands totally belie the fact that it was sovereign british territory, the inhabitants of which wished to remain british. The belgrano was an enemy warship, which threatened a very precarious military mission to recover british territory and subjects from an invading aggressor, I would have sunk the ship, whats your problem with it?
The final point i'll make about the falklands is that it allegedly discredited the KGB in the eyes of the politiburo for their bad call on the reaction to the falklands invasion, which in my opinion is a magnificient occurance, confusion to your enemies and all that.

The Belgrano was out of the military exclusion zone and had no intention of engaging any British forces
as it was leaving. As far as I'm aware at least. Sinking the Belgrano, a military ship outside of the designated combat are was just as bad as a land force landing on Argentinian soil for example.

In regards to the handling of NI, the way in which Thatcher reinforced military outposts and increased checkpoints built up more barriers between the communities there. Indeed, ask most NI residence which PM actually did the most the resolve the Troubles and the answer will probably be Blair. As far as I'm aware Thatcher only increased Republican resentment as she was seen as an almost brutal leader in some respects.

In other foreign policy issues she gave the EU/EEC a hard time, now I'm not saying this was a bad thing nor do I wish to turn this into a Europe debate, but what Thatcher did serve in doing was creating a frosty relationship between us and the rest of Europe.

Also the Poll tax has to bee a major point as well. This poor piece of political engineering backfired drastically and I can't say I'm surprised. When you try and play politics like this things are bound to get nasty.

Despite all this in many respects I think Thatcher was a good leader in many ways. She not only turned a country round but also tried and successfully managed to keep Britain an economically competitive country, something Labour no doubt couldn't of achieved. Most of the resentment from miners ect is ridiculous IMO. A good government wouldn't possibly dream of trying to prop up a completely unprofitable industry or try and keep certain businesses nationalised which were simply running up debts.

Because there are so many good and bad points about Thatcher I have rather mixed feelings towards her. Whilst in many ways she was a savage and cold leader she was also a good leader and knowledgeable in her work. The fact that no other PM can stir up such feelings of admiration and hate in this country shows the mark she made on British politics, a permanent and significant one.

[Furunculus]

1. The Belgrano was out of the military exclusion zone and had no intention of engaging any British forces
as it was leaving. As far as I'm aware at least. Sinking the Belgrano, a military ship outside of the designated combat are was just as bad as a land force landing on Argentinian soil for example.

2. In regards to the handling of NI, the way in which Thatcher reinforced military outposts and increased checkpoints built up more barriers between the communities there. Indeed, ask most NI residence which PM actually did the most the resolve the Troubles and the answer will probably be Blair. As far as I'm aware Thatcher only increased Republican resentment as she was seen as an almost brutal leader in some respects.

3. In other foreign policy issues she gave the EU/EEC a hard time, now I'm not saying this was a bad thing nor do I wish to turn this into a Europe debate, but what Thatcher did serve in doing was creating a frosty relationship between us and the rest of Europe.

4. Also the Poll tax has to bee a major point as well. This poor piece of political engineering backfired drastically and I can't say I'm surprised. When you try and play politics like this things are bound to get nasty.

5. Despite all this in many respects I think Thatcher was a good leader in many ways. She not only turned a country round but also tried and successfully managed to keep Britain an economically competitive country, something Labour no doubt couldn't of achieved. Most of the resentment from miners ect is ridiculous IMO. A good government wouldn't possibly dream of trying to prop up a completely unprofitable industry or try and keep certain businesses nationalised which were simply running up debts.

6. Because there are so many good and bad points about Thatcher I have rather mixed feelings towards her. Whilst in many ways she was a savage and cold leader she was also a good leader and knowledgeable in her work. The fact that no other PM can stir up such feelings of admiration and hate in this country shows the mark she made on British politics, a permanent and significant one.

1. We were at war.............. We were fighting a war which most of the british establishment said was too risky to be worth fighting for such silly ideas as preserving the liberty of british citizens. So tough luck belgrano, you were a major warship with the possibility of knackering a carrier which would have meant we lost the war, so i will have a clear conscience as i wave tearfully while you sink. Incidentally, this was allegedly the same reason why the KGB spent the following ten years in the dog-house............. because they told the politiburo we couldn't win and shouldn't try either.

2. Well i have a differing opinion on this, in that i believe the tough stance taken in the eighties was precisely the reason why the IRA were forced to come to the peace table in the nineties, so bring on the checkpoints and dead ira people.

3. Maybe she believed that the UK should not be involved in a gradually federalising EU super-state, you know, much like the majority of the british populace.

4. No disagreement there, i have nothing against the poll-tax per-se, but it was unpopular and therefore a political disaster, and as a result a battle that shouldn't have been fought given the other unpopular policies she was enacting.

5. Totally agreed.

6. She was a useful leader, i.e she did what many tory gov'ts appear to find necessary; which is to clear up the mess left by labour governments.

[tibilicus]

She was a useful leader, i.e she did what many tory gov'ts appear to find necessary; which is to clear up the mess left by labour governments.

Ah, come on! Labours not that bad. If you ignore the fact that due to Labours debt you might have to work until your 70..

Of course the other alternative is another raise in income tax. I guess the one thing you have to say about Thatcher is that she wouldn't come up with the ridiculous idea of borrowing more money to get out of a recession..

[Furunculus]

i am faced with working till seventy, and it ain't that funny considering my non-wealthy parents were able to retire comfortably at 55. i realise this is largely a demographic problem, but i seriously object to labour making the situation worse by having Gordon Brown squatting over the ravening maw of the public-sector in order to engage in an epic bout of fiscal dysentery that spanned more than a decade!

that is fatuous, one way or another the accounts will have to be balanced, if that means raised taxes then so be it. I don't think the government should ever evacuate more than one third of GDP on public spending, but that doesn't mean i'm going to be a retard by holding an incoming government responsible for the unpleasant effects of fixing the previous governments profligacy. there lies the path of the thatcher hater, and i'm not that thick.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

From what I gather, the attack on the ARA General Belgrano was legitimate.

[InsaneApache]

Stop press:

In a war ships get sunk, aeroplanes get shot down, tanks get toasted and men die. The clue is in the name. War.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The Belgrano was out of the military exclusion zone and had no intention of engaging any British forces
as it was leaving. As far as I'm aware at least. Sinking the Belgrano, a military ship outside of the designated combat are was just as bad as a land force landing on Argentinian soil for example.

...

The Argentine cruiser General Belgrano was ordered to attack the British fleet the day before she was sunk at the start of the Falklands War, according to secret intelligence reports that are soon to be released.
...
Officials and ministers have always insisted that, far from heading home, the Belgrano was sailing west to a point outside the exclusion zone from which it was to attack.

Earlier this year the ship's captain, Hector Bonzo, admitted that the Belgrano's decision to sail away from the Task Force on the morning of 2 May was only a temporary manoeuvre.

"Our mission ... wasn't just to cruise around on patrol but to attack,'' Captain Bonzo said in a television interview in May. "When they gave us the authorisation to use our weapons, if necessary, we had to be prepared to attack. Our people were completely trained. I would say we were anxious to pull the trigger.''

In 1994 the Argentine government dropped its claim that the sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime, its defence ministry conceding that it was "a legal act of war''.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...ls-577867.html

CR

[Furunculus]

In 1994 the Argentine government dropped its claim that the sinking of the Belgrano was a war crime, its defence ministry conceding that it was "a legal act of war''.

so whither the problem tbilicus?

if the reasoning of your own country is not good enough for you, what about the mewling admissions of the enemy, will that satisfy?

[Fragony]

lol@england http://lvb.net/item/7382

"We have standards in this country" sure you do love

disgusting control-sick woman, I would kick her over the border at dover.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I would've supported Thatcher attacking Argentina even if the Falklands didn't exist in the first place. Argentina was run by a despicable, murderous Junta. In between brutally torturing tens of thousands of young Argentine students, the Junta leaders attacked the Falklands to...well what for anyway. To indulge their hysterical nationalism? To 'fight communism' - as was the legitimization for their brutal regime? To rally the gullible masses?

I have no sympathy for them whatsoever. To their crimes, the dead of the war need to be added, not to Britain.

~-~-~-~<<o0o>>~-~-~-~

Now if only Thatcher would share my thoughts about Latin American junta leaders. Alas, her Baroness has always entertained a close friendship with Pinochet, and supported the other Latin juntas. So much for her moral compass.

Speaking of moral compass - maybe Thatcher could've devoted some more time to raising her children into upstanding citizens. Her son spend time in gaol for being an arms dealer in Africa (His business is cashing in his mother's reputation and his family's network. Just who are the people the Thatchers hang out with and identify themselves with? All of the world's petty, fascist dictators?). He has even been deemed an undesirable resident in Monaco. Which is an achievement of sorts, considering the pityful standard of foreign tax refugees in Monaco.
Thatcher's daughter for her part caused a stir recently by calling French mixed raced tennis player Tsonga a 'golliwog frog'.

Terrible bunch of chavs. Just like their mother.

[InsaneApache]

Terrible bunch of chavs. Just like their mother.

Indeed. What we're we thinking of electing someone who went to a grammar school, (which she got in on merit), when we should have elected someone like Blair who went to a public school,(because his dad was rich enough to pay for it).

Aye keep those working classes out of power. Bloody chavs.

[Furunculus]

Now if only Thatcher would share my thoughts about Latin American junta leaders. Alas, her Baroness has always entertained a close friendship with Pinochet, and supported the other Latin juntas. So much for her moral compass.

Speaking of moral compass - maybe Thatcher could've devoted some more time to raising her children into upstanding citizens. Her son spend time in gaol for being an arms dealer in Africa (His business is cashing in his mother's reputation and his family's network. Just who are the people the Thatchers hang out with and identify themselves with? All of the world's petty, fascist dictators?). He has even been deemed an undesirable resident in Monaco. Which is an achievement of sorts, considering the pityful standard of foreign tax refugees in Monaco.
Thatcher's daughter for her part caused a stir recently by calling French mixed raced tennis player Tsonga a 'golliwog frog'.

Terrible bunch of chavs. Just like their mother.

Pinochet was a valuable ally in the falklands war.

I have NO issue with what Carol Thatcher said, in fact her treatment will be seen as useful in the future when it is called upon as evidence justifying the future gutting of the BBC.