Is EUIII better than EUII?

[Martok]

I figured I might as well post in this thread instead of starting a new one.

To repeat a question I posed to Monk in the screenshots thread:


For those of you who've played EUIII a fair bit now, what do you think? Honestly? I'm especially curious to hear from those who have played a lot of turn-based strategy games, and how much of an adjustment it is to playing EU3 (and I suppose Paradox games in general), although I would still love to hear everyone's opinion regardless.

To give you an idea of where I'm coming from, my favorite strategy games are (in no particular order) Shogun Total War, Medieval Total War, Star Trek TNG: Birth of the Federation, Lords of the Realm II, and Galactic Civilizations 2. As you can see, I like big, epic empire-building games where I think and plan out what I want my nation/race/faction to do.

Now I've heard people say that while they are in real-time, Paradox games are played at a very measured pace just like turn-based strategy games, but I can't help but wonder just how true that is. Do they really move slow enough that a plodding old fogy like myself could still keep up? And what about EU3 specifically? I've read that it's much more accessible to players than most previous Paradox titles, but since I've never played any of their other games, I really don't have anything to compare it to.


I would really like to hear what people here think about it. As I stated in the screenshot thread, my local Best Buy has a copy of EU3 Complete for around $10.00 (IIRC), and I'm wondering if it would be worth my while to pick it up.

[frogbeastegg]

I'm more of a Paradox dabbler than a Paradox fan so I'm only semi qualified. I do think you might like certain of the Paradox stable, particularly EUIII. The games are made for a specific audience: strategy geek.

For those of you who've played EUIII a fair bit now, what do you think?

It's a game where you need both expansions for the best experience, so either you should buy everything or buy nothing. They add so much, refine, fix, tweak, and just generally overhaul the original experience.

I'm especially curious to hear from those who have played a lot of turn-based strategy games, and how much of an adjustment it is to playing EU3 (and I suppose Paradox games in general)

Give it half an hour and you will be speeding up, slowing down and pausing time as though you have been doing it for years. You can tailor the game to pause automatically for a lot of different events, and everything can be done if the game is paused. It's rather like having the turns placed where you want them.

And what about EU3 specifically? I've read that it's much more accessible to players than most previous Paradox titles, but since I've never played any of their other games, I really don't have anything to compare it to.

With Paradox accessability is a relative term. They are badly documented, complicated, and some parts are just downright uninituitive. Furthermore, the procession of patches alters the game so much that guides etc from an early version are quite useless for a later one.

You will be to be prepared to spend a lot of time reading the official forum. You will need the patience to engage in trial and error, and to forge on when you feel completely lost. It's gonig to take a comparatively long time to learn, and longer still to understand the higher levels of the game.

Generally though, once someone survives their first full campaign they have found their feet.

It's a time consuming game. You can't play for a couple of hours and then expect to understand most of the gameplay. Campaigns take a long time to complete, and the replay value is massive due to the ability to play many different nations and starting eras.

As I stated in the screenshot thread, my local Best Buy has a copy of EU3 Complete for around $10.00 (IIRC), and I'm wondering if it would be worth my while to pick it up.

If you have the time to give it, I'd say go for it. I would recommend it to you ahead of EU: Rome, despite your preference for Romans over guns.

[Xiahou]

Just to add to what Froggy already said. Real-time instead of turn-based is pretty much no concern at all. I was worried about it too coming into EU3, but my concerns were misplaced.

I would also agree that if you want EU3, you want all the expansions. If you're getting the Complete Edition for $10, I'd do it without a second thought. Too bad they didn't have that when I got the game- I think I paid $60 total...

When I first started playing, I found the game to be a little intimidating- but in a good way. I really enjoyed the challenge of trying to find out how the various game mechanics worked.... how to conquer territories, forge alliances, keep inflation low, ect. I'd say that playing a few hours a day, it took me about 2 or 3 days to get comfortable enough with everything to feel like I was doing well. I mainly used trial and error, combined with the EU3 wiki and some Googling when all else failed.

Sadly, I've gotten away from the game lately- partly due to a lack of time, and partly due to being distracted by other games. But I still think it's a great game and look forward to playing again.

[Monk]

I can say with confidence that I have gotten hooked on EUIII, in a similar way I was hooked on STW many years ago. I feel as if I've discovered an entire new genre of games and am going to start looking into much more paradox games the moment EUIII becomes boring. The only catch is I don't foresee EUIII getting boring anytime soon!

When I first started playing, I found the game to be a little intimidating- but in a good way. I really enjoyed the challenge of trying to find out how the various game mechanics worked.... how to conquer territories, forge alliances, keep inflation low, ect. I'd say that playing a few hours a day, it took me about 2 or 3 days to get comfortable enough with everything to feel like I was doing well. I mainly used trial and error, combined with the EU3 wiki and some Googling when all else failed.

I think the biggest change of pace, going from TW to EU was the fact that you can't just declare war against everyone in sight like you can in Total War. That alone took a lot of getting used to. You have to balance your realm's stability, economy and revolt risk factors all while trying to deal and wheel in order to obtain just causes for war so your people won't revolt if you get into an offensive war! At first it seemed contrived and far too difficult, but thanks to a friend who knows the game and a few nights of just playing with buttons I developed a good understanding of its features.

Once I got the understanding I found a very fun game. The tutorials helped a lot in teaching the interface, but not really so much with the features. For that I just played a few throw-away games and learned by doing. Annexation and diplomatic dealing was also another hurdle, but I have to say that once I got used to it it felt very fluid and straight forward (even though it didn't seem that way from the outside looking in).

I will repeat what I said in the screenshot topic. For $10 EUIII -Complete is a steal, and if you have the time to devote to learning the game it will reward you greatly with its hours of gameplay. The only downside is how much time it can suck up.

[Jolt]

That alone took a lot of getting used to. You have to balance your realm's stability, economy and revolt risk factors all while trying to deal and wheel in order to obtain just causes for war so your people won't revolt if you get into an offensive war!

While in EU 3 you can actually win a war with those problems relatively unsolved, Victoria is the hallmark of what you have just said. Its quite fun to see that if you go to war there without having your economy (Budgets, Tariffs, Taxes), Industry (Producing and lucrative factories and railroads), Society (Making sure the vast majority of your Population or POPs are getting their daily goods with being forced to poverty due to taxes or tariffs) and Military (Starting force ready, looking over at the terrain, which plays a huge role in warfare, and reserves) completely balanced and controlled, going to war will collapse your entire country before you can say "What the ?"

On the other hand, being the World's leading exporter, with such a power as to paralyze world trade and sending several countries to bankrupcy due to shortage of resources, on a whim is quite an awesome feeling.

[frogbeastegg]

Vicky is possibly my favourite out of the Paradox stable. Despite that it's the one I recommend most sparingly, for the same reason I don't play it that much. It's just so big: so much to do, so many decisions to make, so much to monitor, so much time involved, and so very many paths you can take. It's not something to approach lightly. One day I should probably buy the Revolutions expansion; it's more of a heavy duty patch than an add-on.

I have a 4 year old AAR which documents my first game of Vicky. If you can tolerate the wonky writing it gives a very good idea of the learning process.

[TinCow]

EU3 is currently ranked up there with Civ4 and HOMM3 as one of my favorite strategy games of all time. The replayability is simply unparalleled. I personally found the learning curve to be extremely steep, but once I barrelled through a few campaigns, everything started to fall into place. Once you master EU3 Complete, I again highly recommend the Magna Mundi mod (version 2.0 is coming out very soon). This mod adds so much more complexity and historical accuracy to the game that you essentially have re-learn how to play the game again. The learning curve for Magna Mundi is at least as steep as for EU3 itself. However, once you get to grips with it, you'll never want to play the vanilla version again.

[seireikhaan]

I second Jolt and Lady Froggy- if you really likle EU III, then I strongly urge a few(dozen) attempts at Vicky. A lot deeper, with much more impressive economics at play, and a foreign system that seems much more realistic than EU III.

Plus, I have one major aggravation with EU III- the AI, no matter how much money it creates, seems only to suffer from inflation if it wants to- and that is usually just a few minor factions dying to be exterminated in the first place anyways. Especially in Magna Mundi, that puts the player at severe disadvantage, as the player actually has to keep it in check. Thus far, I have not seen the Vicky AI actually cheat, as it does in EU III.

[Jolt]

Yeah, its quite common to see countries going Bankrupt in Vicky. One curious story that I have of my VIP Grand Campaign as Prussia - Germany, which I eventually grew to the "Gross Deutchland", with a Mittleeuropa of Satelites:
- Scotland with Northern England
- Belgium without their German speaking provinces
- Netherlands without the Limburg strip - had belonged to the German Confederation
- Denmark like it was pre-1918, but without any colonies (My satelite Netherlands got Greenland and Iceland was Denmark's Satelite)
- Hungary without Slovakia
- Independent Slovakia (It remained in my control until the date allowed me to create the nation)
- Venice owning Northern Half of Italy (The North Italian part plus some provinces with South Italian)
- Croatia without Trieste provinces, which is my Germany's access to the Mediterranean
- Bosnia, surprisingly didn't suffer any land changes. :P
- Montenegro with Novi Pazar or whatever the name is
- Congress Poland with Western Galicia and Krakow (Which I gently ceeded them, since it was previously part of my nation)
- The three Baltic States with Dominion Status (Representing only large autonomy inside the German nation, since the Baltic States are part of Germany due to the Teutonic Knights colonization)
- Finland without any modifications
- Ukraine with Eastern Galicia but without the Crimean Peninsula
- Crimea only with the Crimean Peninsula. Created due to the majority of Tatars in the peninsula.
I had created a nation named Galicia, comprised of that province which was inside the Austro-Hungarian Empire. I RPed as if a Ukrainian King was placed in the Galician throne, since placing a Polish King might have consequences in the Polish inhabitted areas of Germany, thus Germany decided to empower the Ukrainians. After the completely overwhelming and crushing defeat I inflicted upon the Russian Empire. (I must have destroyed around 100 divisions, and reached and surpassed Moscow, switched their satelite Finland to me) Russia was forced to give me Poland and Ukraine, which was used to create the two Nation-States. Afterwards, I wondered what to do with Galicia.

I wondered between adding Poland and Ukraine to Galicia (Since I RPed Galicia as a federal Kingdom, with Polish dominated Western Galicia and Ukraine dominated Eastern Galicia) to simulate the continuation of a federation between both peoples under a single government, OR creating Ukraine and Poland, and allowing Galicia to remain as an independent kingdom, OR splitting Galicia in two - The Polish Western part for Poland and the Eastern part for Ukraine. In the end I decided that the Congressional Polish people, having just been released from a foreign king, would never accept being led by another foreign (The Galician - Ukrainian) king, and that the Polish-Galician people seeing that, and having the oportunity to finally reunify with their country, would abandon an independent Galicia for Poland, thus leaving Ukrainian Galicia with the only option of uniting with Ukraine. Capital shifted from Galician Lvov to Kiev.

In any case, my Germany was leading exporter in the majority of the products (Practically every manufactured good), with twice as many factories as the second country (USA), leading country in export total income and obviously also leading country with export income per national capita. Besides that, I had a colossal fortune in my treasury, and since that was so, I decided to see how would the world fare if my country suddenly started stockpiling every resource and halted the exports the world market (Mostly the Civilized and Industrialized countries) were dependent on. Obviously I would take colossal expenditure due to my gigantic budget spending, low tariffs and low taxes, but nothing my treaury couldn't handle for some 9 months.

So I did it, and halted all exports. Thus the Great Depression began. I was originally thinking that since I stopped exporting the goods nations like the USA and England (Britain was history by then) were dependent on, they would immediatly start to suffer great problems in maintaining their industrial output, but I forgot about prestige. As such, the resource shortage impact fell to those countries which didn't have enough prestige to get the available goods first, while the world powers managed to keep their economies afloat initially (They started importing the goods that the lesser prestigious ones managed to make. However industrial countries which less prestige wouldn't be able to get any goods they needed for their factories since all of them were bought by the prestigious world powers. As such, their industrial oriented economies (With POPs which produced goods in factories) began to significantly slow down, and since they couldn't produce goods for export to pay for their budgets and social reforms, they started taking in deficits, which in time would lead to taking loans, which would only mean bigger deficits due to the interest of those loans. The end result would be bankrupcy.

Two months into the Great Depression, the first bankrupcies en masse started appearing (I was taking tens of thousands of pounds of losses each day). Italy, Sweden, Netherlands, Portugal and Spain and other countries followed. By the three months a dozen had already sunk into bankrupcy. Coupled with that, we see the first revolutions (Hungary fell to Fascism, presumably not only due to the crisis, but also since Slovakia was independent; Croatia fell to Communism, Estonia and Lithuania became Socialists as well) Up to the end of the forth month, the first big power crumbled to the crisis. France, the eternal enemy of Germany had declared bankrupcy. I presumed the USA might be keeping itself afloat, but I wasn't so sure England would resist the continual collapse of countries, as countries without money cannot import the goods England (Or any other country for that matter) creates. So I laughed at the prospect of seeing England in financial shambles. By this time some of my satelites were already under. I suppose what a keeping the world afloat was the industrial "might" of the USA, which managed to keep the world market flowing. I doubted my great depression would collapse the USA, but if it did, I was pretty sure most civilized countries would drop. Of course, some uncivilized countries also declared bankrupcy, but those were few, as their exporting goods still were being bought (I think) by the civilized countries. In the middle of the fifth month, one of the nations I didn't expect to go under, actually did. Russia probably couldn't resist a crushing defeat at my hands followed by the goods shortage for their factories. I expected Russia to stay afloat since they were a large country which had many unmanufactored goods to use for themselves and keep the industrial chain going. Apparently it wasn't enough. That was coupled by some pretty neat rebellions all over the Great Bear (War militancy on top of not having daily goods sucks, I suppose) At the sixth month, the Ottoman Empire did also go bankrupt and that was about it. My treaury was already quite low (Still big enough though), and thus the stockpiled goods in Germany started flowing freely once again to the world. In the end, around 30 went down. It was quite fun. England did keep itself afloat. Shame. I still do wonder how Russia did collapse. If I did it before taking Ukraine and Poland, I suppose the extra number of factories plus having another 100 divisions on top of what they already did in the East (Which were some 50 or more) to maintain would have toppled them sooner.

Anyways, there you go knowing a little bit more about my favorite Grand Campaign. :)

[Xiahou]

Plus, I have one major aggravation with EU III- the AI, no matter how much money it creates, seems only to suffer from inflation if it wants to- and that is usually just a few minor factions dying to be exterminated in the first place anyways. Especially in Magna Mundi, that puts the player at severe disadvantage, as the player actually has to keep it in check. Thus far, I have not seen the Vicky AI actually cheat, as it does in EU III.

Have you played the IN expansion? You can turn off "lucky nations" iirc.