Catholic Church in deeep water.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour". To me it seems that many Catholics aren't that bothered by these events and seem to accept them as an inevitable problem within the church. Even when scandals like this continue to pop up the number of
members in the church hasn't shrunk.

There's even bizarre stories of people knowing about Catholic hierarchy abusing young members in their own congregation and yet they still seem to stay loyal and don't want to demand any really reform for fear of going against Catholic tradition and teachings. I just don't get it, you wouldn't allow a headteacher to be appointed if you knew they had sinister intentions, yet this case has highlighted the church is prepared to do the opposite and defend its clergy, no matter how sinister their actions.

You wouldn't want a paedophile living on your road, so why are so many people cool with paedophiles running their church organisations?

[Am I allowed to say bullox as a German?] Bullox. We aren't defending the few people in the clergy that do this kind of thing - we think they're as guilty as you do. We are defending our faith from broad attacks by anti-Catholics on the faith as a whole.

You can attack the individuals who commit these sick crimes all you like. Attack our faith and traditions and it might get ugly.

EDIT: The sexual crimes are, of course, completely disturbing. What I would like to see, however, is exactly what happened with these physical beatings and humiliations. Remember, these things happened a long time ago. What were other schools like at the time?

[Rhyfelwyr]

The problem is that the church as a whole is covering up. Not every Catholic, but the institution on the whole.

BTW, what's "bullox"

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

BTW, what's "bullox"

The "fact" that ordinary Catholics don't care/aren't bothered comes immediately to mind. Really, saying that is practically one step away from blood libel...

[Askthepizzaguy]

You are the one who has had a "knee-jerk" reaction, not me.

You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.

However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.

[tibilicus]

[Am I allowed to say bullox as a German?] Bullox. We aren't defending the few people in the clergy that do this kind of thing - we think they're as guilty as you do. We are defending our faith from broad attacks by anti-Catholics on the faith as a whole.

You can attack the individuals who commit these sick crimes all you like. Attack our faith and traditions and it might get ugly.

EDIT: The sexual crimes are, of course, completely disturbing. What I would like to see, however, is exactly what happened with these physical beatings and humiliations. Remember, these things happened a long time ago. What were other schools like at the time?

I haven't attacked your faiths or traditions, unless defending paedophiles counts as part of your tradition. What I'm wondering is why Catholics don't demand for reform and stricter screening of clergy members and the institutions they run. Seems to me a lot of people are quick to condemn such crimes yet when it comes to any talk of reform every one goes notably silent. I'm not saying the catholic Church needs to reform it's teachings, what I am saying though is it's about time someone stood up to church hierarchy and demand answers into what isn't isolated cases, but is actually a world wide problem as there have been cases of abuse around the globe. We're not talking about a few cases here, this is a widespread problem..

[rory_20_uk]

Catholic Church an institution that is a self serving entity that protects deviants and humiliates and abuses boys and girls?

Good to see some traditions are still kept up then.

Worship God? Fine. But the catholic Church brings so much baggage from years ago that is patently serving those at the top at the expense of everyone else and who'se idea of "reform" appears to be occasionally forgiving someone a few hundred years ago.

Tear it down and start again. It's what Jesus would do.

[Askthepizzaguy]

Personally I'd be delighted if Jesus showed up and started doing what he did to the money changers. Hardly an authoritative source, but...

If Jesus took such offense to people selling things in the temple to those people trying to hear about God, just imagine what he would do to all these little Jesus-themed trinket shops, profiteering off of religion just to make a quick buck. I don't even want to think about what he would do to the church officials who sexually and otherwise physically and mentally abuse children. I have a feeling there would be some smoking craters in the ground. Time for another reformation... people seriously ought to stop paying any sort of money to that organization, and if they MUST be Catholic, they should have a local chapter which doesn't answer to the church hierarchy. Roman Catholicism should go. And there should be so much reform that what you're really talking about is going Protestant at the very least.

It's no longer just a den of thieves, it's a den of child molesters, thugs, and racketeers.

[Brenus]

Young 14 years old Brazilian Girl Pregnant after being raped by a Step Dad aborts: Excommunication.
Priest torture, raped and humiliate young boys and girl: Nothing
That the Church for you…

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

You're half right. When I see horrible systemic abuses of children, my reaction is to condemn.

However, you are being ridiculous if you think your reaction isn't knee-jerk. I cannot find a better term for it. You seem to want to defend the church no matter what its crimes and offer apologist's explanations. The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.

I don't know how many times I have to explain this, I am an Anglo-Catholic, not a Roman Catholic.

Your solution to a problem which is an old one, and already largely dealt with, was to call for the dissolution of the Roman Catholic Church. That is a knee-jerk reaction, with no thought to the consequences.

The fact is that it would only take about 20 Cardinals, bishops and Chapter heads to cover something like this up, aside from the abusers themselves.

Now, many Catholics have called for reform, but if they shout too loudly they will follow Luthor and argueably do very little good. The Church has been resistant to change for about 500 years, because they believe that changes they make impact on the number of people going to heaven. Heterodoxy can be deemed heresy when it challenges the heirarchy directly, and the problem become still greater when you consider that the Cardinal you are attacking might become Pope.

The Catholic Church is an institution more than 1,700 years old, with more that 1 Billion members, it is the largest religion in the world, and the largest charity. To say, "It has to go" is naive, because it isn't going anywhere.

So, rather than throwing around unrealistic suggestions, why don't you try to think a little more calmly and reasonably.

[Rhyfelwyr]

The "fact" that ordinary Catholics don't care/aren't bothered comes immediately to mind. Really, saying that is practically one step away from blood libel...

Your spelling was bollox

[Askthepizzaguy]

So, rather than throwing around unrealistic suggestions, why don't you try to think a little more calmly and reasonably.

Since the church seems to be able to avoid real legal consequences, the only thing people can realistically do is vote with their feet and leave the church. Maybe then, the loss of money would convince them to toss out the child molesters instead of transferring them. That's a realistic suggestion and guess what? It works, too.

You're talking about one instance where it would take a relatively small amount of people to cover it up, but again this is not an isolated incident. This is not the first abuse case this year. This has been happening for decades, all across the planet. In my own country, we had a vast amount of separate examples of priests abusing and molesting children in the past few years alone.

This is not just a few bad apples spoiling the bunch. This is a widespread, systemic problem which is being, in almost every single case, systematically covered up by the church and the individual criminals in question transferred away to prey on the innocent again.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

That's "prey" not "pray".

I don't care which religion a person is, when the knee-jerk reaction is to defend the church and seem to throw up their hands and say "what are you gonna do" I get very concerned. But ultimately I don't need to change your mind, enough people will change their minds on their own, and get disgusted with the church that they will leave it and the loss of a few million or so members will cause even the church of Rome to re-examine its obscene policy of allowing abusers to abuse and then assisting them in avoiding legal action.

And if that is just a pipe dream, then people are willing participants and paying members of a group which is responsible for the organized abuse of countless people, and I am voicing my severe disappointment and disgust, which I'm allowed to do.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Since this scandal "broke" a few years ago, and the sadly long history of covering up abuses was exposed, Holy Mother Church -- and particularly the dioceses in the USA -- have gone to significant lengths to adopt the oversight policies and attitudes for which so many of you are calling.

Sadly, as with any large bureaucratic organization, the tendency for issues of concern to be "hushed up" or meaningful reform slowed or neutered by red tape is also present in the Church.


As a conservative, I'd be ecstatic if the level of incisive criticism leveled (with some good reason I admit) at the Catholic Church were aimed at any number of bloated bureacracies that need reform. I can think of a few departments in the USG could do with some heavy pruning -- oh, but that' the government, so we know it is always working for our best interests....


Please, those of you who are on about the married priests thing again, check your reasoning. There is ZERO data indicating that sexual frustration leads to pedophilia. There is, as far as I am aware, not even a correlational connection, much less a causal one. A priest having the chance to get his yaks milked will have no bearing on this issue.

[Askthepizzaguy]

As a conservative, I'd be ecstatic if the level of incisive criticism leveled (with some good reason I admit) at the Catholic Church were aimed at any number of bloated bureacracies that need reform.

Does this mean I have not demonstrated my extreme dislike for the United States government, or any other global organization with extreme levels of corruption, or my distrust of huge organizations to begin with?

I'd better roll up my sleeves. Group mentality and group guilt and the ability of a large group to defend itself very easily from a smaller group allows not only strength in numbers but also allows people to feel secure and safe enough to commit crimes they would never consider doing on their own. I believe there have been a rather large amount of sociological studies which demonstrate how people in groups behave much, much more unethically than lone individuals, even to the point where peer pressure alone can cause people to give answers to simple questions which they know are dead wrong. I wish I had the data in front of me to share, but I just watched one of these studies on an educational channel on TV, and read about such studies constantly in various newspapers and other media. In large groups, people behave badly, and people can be more easily pressured into acting without shame.

Fear not Seamus, I have a great loathing for any large group. In the end, they all ultimately become a bunch of bullies. That is why I am not a member of any group, or if I am (such as this forum) I am a casual member who retains his independence to an annoying and frustrating degree. Groups, to be honest, tend to behave poorly towards anyone not in that group. I hate groups.

[Incongruous]

More like a few millions.

Awsome, just awsome, almost as awsome as the mighty Lions of Israel who also post ridiculous "facts".

The simple solution? Don't be a part of such a corrupt church.

That is frikin awsome, hey gay people don't be part of such a corrupted sexual grouping, the higher bollox of the Church says so!!!

The problem is that they're part of an organisation which preaches the so called "right moral behaviour".

Right, step back, think and truly understand the **** in that post, like some mighty wizard you have descended upon us with your amazing insight...

Oh please, stop the stuff about the moral code, you live in a society right? You understand how that works right?

Fear not Seamus, I have a great loathing for any large group. In the end, they all ultimately become a bunch of bullies. That is why I am not a member of any group, or if I am (such as this forum) I am a casual member who retains his independence to an annoying and frustrating degree. Groups, to be honest, tend to behave poorly towards anyone not in that group. I hate groups.

You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.

[Adrian II]

As a conservative, I'd be ecstatic if the level of incisive criticism leveled (with some good reason I admit) at the Catholic Church were aimed at any number of bloated bureacracies that need reform.

As a closet socialist I whole-heartedly agree. The worst example of child abuse in living memory must be Romania's orphanages, set up by the communist Ceaucescu government. All political or religious denominations and establishments are prone to moral decay if left unchecked. This conclusion does not exonerate the Catholic clergy (in many nations, not just in Ireland), but it puts the whole thing in the proper perspective.

[Askthepizzaguy]

You live in a society right? You have a group of friends right? So bollox to all of it mate.

There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...

...all of whom have differing opinions, however major or minor, on politics, religion, and pretty much everything else...

In my opinion you are either ignorant or a step away from bigotry. I doubt it is the former, and I don't want to believe it is the latter.

[Crazed Rabbit]

There's a difference between going to the store and buying groceries and living civilly with others under the law, and being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.

Oh, you.

Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.

Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics...

No need, silly. We are the borg. We already know.

CR

[Incongruous]

being part of a religious or political organization with them which demands group conformity and groupthink.

Please tell me you know the difference. Your post was thoughtless and not particularly insightful.

Awwww, I was thoughtless...

Now, lets look at these two statements, what can I derive from them?

1. You do not understand the dynamics of society

2. Your assessment of the Catholic Church in the modern world is off-track.

3. You dislike my thoughtless way of calling you out on your bollox.

[Askthepizzaguy]

The Catholic Church requires conformity and groupthink? Remind me to mention that to my fellow Catholics..

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

That would be the very example of conformity I am referring to. As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

Conformity and groupthink? I don't know how to respond to such wacky claims.

Certainly not with with consideration.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Awwww, I was thoughtless...

Now, lets look at these two statements, what can I derive from them?

1. You do not understand the dynamics of society

2. See edit above. SF

3. You dislike my thoughtless way of calling you out on your bollox

1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

Hardly a debate, but more a pissing contest.



I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

That would be the very example of conformity I am referring to. As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

So requiring Catholics to follow the rules of God is "demanding group conformity"? You could say the same thing about any group of people in the world. Beware! Book clubs require conformity!

At least you didn't try to defend the ridiculous "groupthink" allegation.

Certainly not with with consideration.

I consider only that worth considering.

1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

Because you don't. You act as though a group having rules members have to follow is some great evil.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

Because you are. You clearly know nothing of debates between Catholics that are ongoing on a range of subjects. You don't know of the official positions of the Church or what it's members believe.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

See above. For anyone in the know, it is clear.

I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

Aww.... You just sit down now while I go get the fainting salts. Really, Pizzaguy, if you're gonna be in the backroom, you need to grow a thicker skin.

CR

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

The Catholic church requires its members to conform to a set of commands which, if broken, can lead to excommunication. And it considers questioning or speaking out against some of those commands to be heresy.

So if you don't believe in God or believe in a different definition of God, you might be (in theory, but rarely in practice) thrown out of the Catholic Church. Fair enough.

Then one must ask the question why you're a Catholic anyway if you don't agree with the Catholic interpretation of God. Also whether atheists are conformists for all believing there is no God. Etcetera.

As for bigotry and ignorance, I think their position about children born out of wedlock, or the destination of those who don't accept their point of view, or their positions on homosexuality are bigoted and ignorant.

You know what I was getting at.

[Incongruous]

[/SPOIL]
1. no explanation as to why you assert that.

2. no explanation as to why you assert that.

3. no explanation as to why it is "bollox".

Hardly a debate, but more a pissing contest.



I can take the hint fellas, you disagree and perhaps you don't like me personally. But I at least attempt to respond to your opposing positions with an open mind and I take the time to read your posts and if I disagree, I state why.

If you won't do me the same courtesy, that's fine, but it's laughable to call it a debate at that point.

1. Why even bother, your concept of society is really out of whack.

2. omg, I am a Catholic and I can tell you witha straight face that you are talking bollox, its not my fault that you don't know it.

3. EMFM would do a better job than me, I can't be bothered debating with a gut who knows nothing about by religion as it is actually practiced.

Go out and talk to some real Catholics, spend time with a priest and his congregation, I dare you to be really critical.

Man ATPG, If you think this is harsh I would recomend you stay away from any thread to do with Israel/Palestine, Iraq, Repubs and Dems.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Quite. This is actually fairly civilized for, you know, a bunch of Catholics. We haven't even set Opus Dei on anyone yet.

[Beskar]

Catholic paedophile priests aren't just bad taste jokes, they are indeed a fact.

The vatican also protect them by moving them to Vatican city or put them into missionary work in places like Africa and Brazil, away from the authorities.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Catholic paedophile priests aren't just bad taste jokes, they are indeed a fact.

True. As is the fact that a vast majority of the clergy are not pedophiles, just as a vast majority of all of us are not. As this fact is, at best, mentioned only in passing, the references to the pedophile scandals that have affected the Church have become more of a club with which to beat up on the church and to try to marginalize it, rather than a means of addressing the specific issue of concern.

The vatican also protect them by moving them to Vatican city or put them into missionary work in places like Africa and Brazil, away from the authorities.

My understanding was that some bishops informed such offenders that they had just "discovered" a vocation for a cloistered monastic existence of solitude and prayer. Incarceration can take many forms.

Sadly too little was done to work with/help the victims of those abuses, and too much was done to "keep things quiet." This is a natural tendency of almost any organization -- but it rarely does more than delay the problem. More of us need to remember that when we're the ones running the organziation.

[Samurai Waki]

Really, if anger should be directed at any source its not the Catholic Church entirely. I mean the whistle was blown, by fellow clergymen... even if it was thirty years to late. The Irish Government is really more the source of the anger, since they aren't willing to prosecute, hell even Catholic Clergy outside of Ireland are asking why the Irish government is refusing to Prosecute...

I feel I have a certain right in being critical of Catholics (and the only reason why I've left is because I don't believe in Exclusivity within Spirituality), since I was one (in mostly name only) for the better part of twenty some years, most of the clergy as Seamus has said aren't pedophiles, bad, or even slightly bad people. Its amazing how several utterly terrible examples can set the tone for such an enormous organization. Some have said this goes all the way to the top, and all I can say is: Bollocks. It never really left Ireland, much like it never really left the US, small circles of people can keep quiet a lot easier than a really big circle, if it was indeed larger it would not have taken thirty years to finally figure out. The College of Cardinals, and most of the hierarchy for that matter are probably having a major fit over this whole fiasco.

[Tratorix]

It's sad how some people manage to take a calling meant to guide and teach and use it for things like this. As for the Church, I'm sure they'll send these people a "Sorry you were abused and molested" card in about 500 years.

[Tribesman]

The Irish Government is really more the source of the anger, since they aren't willing to prosecute, hell even Catholic Clergy outside of Ireland are asking why the Irish government is refusing to Prosecute...

Do you really expect the Irish government to prosecute itself?

[Papewaio]

The measure of an organisation is not a lack of bad apples, but how it deals with the ones that exist.