A Problem of Shrinkage

[Lemur]

In general, I do believe the US to be mainly center-right (in the classical sense).

But what does that mean? "Left" needs something to be left of, and "right" needs something to be right of. America is "center-right" in relationship to what? America? Does that even make sense?

Was Genghis Khan more "right" than Mussolini? Was Pol Pot more "left" than Castro? How can you even use such soft and nebulous descriptors and hope to express anything that has meaning?

I think saying "America is a center-right" country means this, precisely: "Yes, we lost the last election very badly, and our party is in eclipse, but more Americans agree with us than with anyone else, so everything's going to be okay."

Nothing more, nothing less.

[Xiahou]

But what does that mean? "Left" needs something to be left of, and "right" needs something to be right of. America is "center-right" in relationship to what? America? Does that even make sense?

In that more Americans self identify as conservative than liberal. It's really as simple as that. If you drew a line chart of it, the biggest lump would be right of center.

And Fox will continue to bang this drum to spin things.

all I hear from Fox is attempts to define and re-define everyone and everything.

They were repeating this sentence nonstop on Fox for about a month.

Ok, I've got to ask: What's with the Fox obsession? I didn't mention it or link it and yet the next three replies all attack it. Is this the new "Fox News" defense debate tactic I've heard about? Can I retaliate with the Chewbacca Defense ?

[CountArach]

In that more Americans self identify as conservative than liberal. It's really as simple as that. If you drew a line chart of it, the biggest lump would be right of center.

What someone labels themselves as and what someone actually believes can be remarkably different. Look at the above table - note that 48% of Republicans want government regulation of the market in some way! How is that at all conservative?

[Lemur]

In that more Americans self identify as conservative than liberal. It's really as simple as that. If you drew a line chart of it, the biggest lump would be right of center.

Sounds plausible, but I haven't seen a poll that supports it.

This poll shows Independents, Dems and Repubs, in that order. As for "conservative" and "liberal," words you use as though they had a commonly accepted definition (they don't), let's see the data. You've made a straight factual assertion, so I'm assuming you have something to back it up.

Ok, I've got to ask: What's with the Fox obsession? I didn't mention it or link it and yet the next three replies all attack it.

When you repeat a well-known Fox News talking point verbatim, people just might notice.

[Xiahou]

Sounds plausible, but I haven't seen a poll that supports it.

This poll shows Independents, Dems and Repubs, in that order. As for "conservative" and "liberal," words you use as though they had a commonly accepted definition (they don't), let's see the data. You've made a straight factual assertion, so I'm assuming you have something to back it up.

I've posted it before, I'll post it again. Maybe one of these times you'll remember it. The Battleground Poll has been carried out since 1991. Question D3 asks respondents to self identify as either Very Conservative, Somewhat Conservative, Moderate, Somewhat Liberal, or Very Liberal. See for yourself.. 59% identify themselves as somewhat or very cosnervative, 36% identify as somewhat or very liberal. Very conservative vs Very liberal is 20% vs 10%.The entire point of my previous post was that the GOP is in decline because voters have lost all confidence in their ability to live up to their ideals. Presenting polls, as you have, that less Americans identify themselves as Republicans doesn't refute that- if anything it supports it.

When you repeat a well-known Fox News talking point verbatim, people just might notice.

So it is the Fox News Defense. Good show.
My only response is: Why would a Wookie be on Endor?

[Samurai Waki]

It'll be interesting to see where both parties end up in 50 years... that is, if we're still a democracy (you can never be to sure about these things). Hopefully the repubs take notes from the Libertarians...

[Lemur]

I've posted it before, I'll post it again. Maybe one of these times you'll remember it. The Battleground Poll has been carried out since 1991. Question D3 asks respondents to self identify as either Very Conservative, Somewhat Conservative, Moderate, Somewhat Liberal, or Very Liberal. See for yourself..

Your link, she is broken. Here's the fixed version.

An interesting poll. They ask for liberal/conservative self-definition in relationship to government and politics, not on any other subjects (say, social issues or finance), which is interesting thing one. They also provide no definition of "conservative" or "liberal," which is interesting thing two.

Here's what I would like to see to make the "center-right" mantra believable: A breakdown of which issues represent "conservative" and "liberal," and then a broad-based poll of Americans seeing how they fall on the issues. Anything less is just poll-smoking. CA, can you whip a poll like that out of your posterior?

[Vladimir]

Ok, I've got to ask: What's with the Fox obsession? I didn't mention it or link it and yet the next three replies all attack it. Is this the new "Fox News" defense debate tactic I've heard about? Can I retaliate with the Chewbacca Defense ?

When you repeat a well-known Fox News talking point verbatim, people just might notice.

So it is the Fox News Defense. Good show.
My only response is: Why would a Wookie be on Endor?

It's your typical and mindless demagoguery. Pick a symbol of hatred and whenever that symbol associates itself with something you disagree with, equate the two. It doesn't even matter if the person or idea is directly associated with the symbol (e.g. I don't watch Fox News, but hold many of the same views presented there). Rally 'round the flag boys! (BTW I call Godwin in two) Personally, I recommend one of these to remedy the problem.

I read an Air Force version of the Chewbacca defense and it's hilarious.

[Lemur]

Vladimir, the cool thing about your posts is that they are entirely calorie-free, so I can consume as many as I like without worrying about my waistline.

Meanwhile, yet another take on the subject:

Since Bush's re-election in 2004, the GOP has lost ground electorally in the South and the rest of the nation. But the erosion has been much more severe outside the South. That dynamic has threatened Republicans with a spiral of concentration and contraction. Because the party has lost so much ground elsewhere, the South represents an increasing share of what remains -- both in Congress and in its electoral coalition. The party's increasing identification with staunch Southern economic and social conservatism, however, may be accelerating its decline in more-moderate-to-liberal areas of the country, including the Northeast and the West Coast. "Many of the things they have done to become the dominant party in the South have caused them to be less successful in other places," said veteran Democratic strategist Bill Carrick, a South Carolina native.

These intertwined trends -- the Republican Party's growing reliance on the South and the erosion of its strength elsewhere, particularly along the coasts -- have prompted some unusually public soul-searching within the GOP about whether the party has grown too defined by the unflinchingly conservative priorities of its most loyal region. Although the GOP congressional leadership includes more non-Southerners than it did in the 1990s, much of the party's most militant opposition to President Obama has come from Southern leaders, such as South Carolina Gov. Mark Sanford and Texas Gov. Rick Perry. The Texan even raised the possibility of secession in response to Obama's initiatives.

In the view of former Rep. Charles Bass, R-N.H., who was defeated in 2006, "The current crisis of the Republican Party is whether it wants to be a regional party or whether it can try to expand ideologically and appeal to other regions."

[Xiahou]

I still don't buy that. As per the Pew study, the GOP has certainly shrank- but it hasn't grown significantly more conservative, which only serves to keep the party in flux. The Republican party needs to stand for something and until they figure that out, they won't get back in power.

Being the Democrat party Lite isn't a meaningful alternative for voters. They need to outline a contrasting platform, and more importantly, convince voters that they can deliver on it. Until they do that, the party will continue to flounder.

I read an Air Force version of the Chewbacca defense and it's hilarious.

I fixed my links.

[drone]

I think saying "America is a center-right" country means this, precisely: "Yes, we lost the last election very badly, and our party is in eclipse, but more Americans agree with us than with anyone else, so everything's going to be okay."

Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I said Fox would spin it that way. Americans are more religious than their Euro counterparts, and generally Americans don't want the government sticking their nose into their business. The GOP abandoned both the financial and social conservatives, but they still want people to believe that's what they stand for. Americans are waking up to the fact that they have been conned, and are abandoning the GOP.

If they had competent leadership, one of the larger third parties would be actively courting disenfranchised GOP moderates and conservative leaning indies. Unfortunately, most of the Libertarians are still wasted from 4/20 and haven't jumped at the unique opportunity being presented.