Late-Term Abortion Provider Gunned Down In Church

[LittleGrizzly]

Im glad to see people can fully seperate nutters causing death and destruction from the group they are associated with, I look forward to all you people supporting me next time we get into a discussion about Islam!

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

The women getting the late term abortions didnt do it for the lulz. It was either that or bringing up a invalid,something most people dont have the mindset/financial situation to do.



Was raised in a fundamentalist christrian environment. Know more about it then I really care too.

Speaking as a Theologian and Christian, I don't rate fundamentalist Christianity, it, by definition, isn't mainstream and tends not to stick once you enter the real world. The tragedy is that many people, yourself included, ditch the whole thing rather than just the rotten bits.

[Mooks]

Speaking as a Theologian and Christian, I don't rate fundamentalist Christianity, it, by definition, isn't mainstream and tends not to stick once you enter the real world. The tragedy is that many people, yourself included, ditch the whole thing rather than just the rotten bits.

So your actually advocating cherry picking? (Choosing the parts you like, ditching the parts you dont). Thats a riot, most people at least try to make it more subtle by saying to "focus on what Jesus said, he made it so the old testament doesnt need to be followed ", even though Jesus said the exact opposite.

Fundamentalist Christianity may not be the mainstream, but in the Bible Belt (Tulsa, Oklahoma) it certainly is.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

So your actually advocating cherry picking? (Choosing the parts you like, ditching the parts you dont). Thats a riot, most people at least try to make it more subtle by saying to "focus on what Jesus said, he made it so the old testament doesnt need to be followed ", even though Jesus said the exact opposite.

Fundamentalist Christianity may not be the mainstream, but in the Bible Belt (Tulsa, Oklahoma) it certainly is.

Your statement implies Southern Baptism is "complete" Christianity, that rejecting some of those doctrines makes you "less Christian". That is by no means definitively so, conversely I could argue that fundamentalists cherry pick because they do not adhere to the Creeds, which predate the canonisation of the Bible by 50-70 years.

That denomination and it's ilk are neither the last word, nor representative. Nor is Jesus attitude to the Old Testemant simple or especially clear, particually in translation; what is explicit is that he rejected certain parts (eye for and eye, divorce etc.) Further, the denomination you refer to is known for a high level of litteralism in scripture and a low level of contrextuality.

If you want to attack my faith or my scholarship, feel free to open a dedicated thread for that purpose.

[Mooks]

Your statement implies Southern Baptism is "complete" Christianity, that rejecting some of those doctrines makes you "less Christian". That is by no means definitively so, conversely I could argue that fundamentalists cherry pick because they do not adhere to the Creeds, which predate the canonisation of the Bible by 50-70 years.

That denomination and it's ilk are neither the last word, nor representative. Nor is Jesus attitude to the Old Testemant simple or especially clear, particually in translation; what is explicit is that he rejected certain parts (eye for and eye, divorce etc.) Further, the denomination you refer to is known for a high level of litteralism in scripture and a low level of contrextuality.

If you want to attack my faith or my scholarship, feel free to open a dedicated thread for that purpose.

I never said a thing. You said precisely

ditch the whole thing rather than just the rotten bits.

Which to me means cherry picking, maybe to you it means status quo.

Jesus said in the new testament that he came not to discard the old laws, but to reaffirm them. Maybe not those exact words, its been a while since I heard the quote but its definitely there. I chose that example because the old testament is horrific, the doctor in this thread went after unborn babies, the old testament god went after men, women and children in genocide like fashion. Hence why growing up I was severely discouraged from even touching the old testament. It was just a example.

I choose not to attack your faith or scholarship, but im very curios as to what you consider is "the last word" and "representative" of the christian faith at whole.

[Lemur]

What do you do with monsters like that when the state refuses to lock them up?

The state "refuses" to punish the doctor because of the law. We should work on changing that law, not on vilifying and murdering the people who perform procedures that we find abhorrent.

I have to tell you, in cases where the baby is found to have a defect that guarantees a painful, prolonged and expensive death, I don't know what's right. I just read an account of a child who was brought to term who required three (three!) heart surgeries before suffering an inevitable death at one week of age. This child's entire existence was open-chest surgery and pain.

I wouldn't inflict that on my dog, much less my child.

I guess if I had to make that call, I'd support my wife in either an abortion or a DNR with the hospital (assuming they'd allow it). And plenty of narcotics for my baby, to send him or her out on a sea of morphine.

Non-viable fetuses are what make me stumble in my opposition to late-term abortions. Thoughts?

[Kadagar_AV]

Just another day in Taliban America.

Pro-lifer killed doctor... I just cant keep myself from stating the irony.

On the other hand, one might argue that the shooter carried out a very-very-late abortion...




On a more serious note: I do not believe the doctor made abortions for giggles and laughs... When one decide to have an abortion late there is usually a reason for it, no?


It's a sad day when something like this happens, my condoleances to the family and friends.

[LittleGrizzly]

Just another day in Taliban America.

Show some respect, thats no better than trolling...

I have to say im opposed to late Abortions as well but in cases like Lemur mentions i fully support it... does anyone know what what proportion of this doctors abortions would be such a case... and in contrast what proportion of completely healthy fetuses did he perform late term abortions on ?

[Lemur]

Show some respect, thats no better than trolling...

Seriously. It's not helpful to use this incident to throw fecal matter at people of faith or pro-lifers. That's just not conducive to a discussion.

The vast majority of pro-lifers are law-abiding citizens who exercise their freedom of speech and assembly to agitate against a policy they find amoral and inhuman. Please don't use the actions of a single lunatic to paint them with the crazy brush. Note that pro-life organizations have been distancing themselves from this act as fast as they can press release.

Save any Christianity-bashing and America-bashing for an appropriate thread, please.

-edit-

That said, people who used every rhetorical trick in the book to paint Tiller as a monster might want to re-think their approach. If you keep telling your listeners and viewers that a man is an evil horror, one of them might take you seriously.

[Papewaio]

It is a statement that is accurate in direction if not magnitude. Religious nutters killing others because they don't obey their warped code. Just remember that the real Taliban in Afghanistan are only a tiny minority that push their non-mainstream religious view by killing those who oppose them. That the killer is getting even an iota of succor while the victim is vilified as a Nazi camp guard in this thread gives credence to the hyperbola of the Taliban America statement.

Also the strange double take given to religion in that it is okay to smash apart the Doctor but to point out the rot within a religion is a no-no.

One thinks that we wouldn't be so forgiving if the killer's philosophy was centred on Jedism or LOTR or a Trekkie. But change the frock and age the belief system a tad it is not ok to turn the lens on them. Tsk tsk tsk ageism.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I see no evidence he was anything other than normal and well adjusted, no doubt he also had a support staff and family and friends who thought his job was acceptable, I doubt he enjoyed parts of it very much.

Take this link: www.drtiller.com/remembrance.html

and put it in to google. Then, Cache the page and look at what this "clinic" used to promote. They would photograph dead babies as a part of their "services". They would perform baptisms of the babies after death. Does that sound normal to you?

The fact remains that the man made millions killing tens of thousands of pre-born infants. He was also one of 3 doctors in the US who performed the most blatantly outrageous forms of infanticide that the law is still gray on. The media didn't need to take a moment of silence for Mengele. Their rememberances betray their much denied bias. The sad thing is that this barbarism hasn't been dealt with in the 21st century.

Every human has elements of humanity in them. It should be no suprise when even the worst of them have loving families. Evil is the sum of the acts that you take in life. By reasonable standards this man was human being who commited a myriad of crimes agaisnt the most innocent among his own people.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It is a statement that is accurate in direction if not magnitude. Religious nutters killing others because they don't obey their warped code. Just remember that the real Taliban in Afghanistan are only a tiny minority that push their non-mainstream religious view by killing those who oppose them. That the killer is getting even an iota of succor while the victim is vilified as a Nazi camp guard in this thread gives credence to the hyperbola of the Taliban America statement.

Also the strange double take given to religion in that it is okay to smash apart the Doctor but to point out the rot within a religion is a no-no.

One thinks that we wouldn't be so forgiving if the killer's philosophy was centred on Jedism or LOTR or a Trekkie. But change the frock and age the belief system a tad it is not ok to turn the lens on them. Tsk tsk tsk ageism.

I don't think anyone is objecting to criticisms of the kind of narrow and unchristian belief system that says this is ok. What I think people are objecting to is taking this one particularly unchristian action and saying "those Christians are all the same, murdering people for their God all the time." That's my problem anyway. For instance,

"Religious nutters killing others because they don't obey their warped code."

I think the emphasis should be on the "nutters" part because there are all sorts of murderers out there who kill others because they don't obey the murderer's code(s).

[penguinking]

How awful. The sheer hypocrisy in this action dumbfounds me. How could someone possibly be so stupid as do something like this? What the doctor was doing was entirely legal, and could have been opposed by nonviolent means. While the pro-life movement in America has said they don't support this, they clearly need to start sending clear messages not to get violent.

[Lemur]

They would photograph dead babies as a part of their "services". They would perform baptisms of the babies after death. Does that sound normal to you?

This is the second time that you're brought baptism up [edit, my bad, I see it was Xiahou who jumped on this first]. I can very easily imagine a situation where a couple terminates a non-viable fetus and still wants the blessing of baptism for their child.

Before we started successfully spawning, my wife and I went through a miscarriage at three months. Let me assure you, just because I never met that child doesn't mean I don't love it have tender feelings. Sorry, but your emphasis on services that might help a grieving couple don't wash, and they smell of unthinking hype. Whether it's a miscarriage or an abortion, losing a baby hurts. A record of baptism and a picture might help a hurting mother and father get through what must be a traumatic experience.

Some (many?) abortions are due to non-viable fetuses. Not everyone is using abortion as birth control. Consider this before you fire your next fusillade.

-edit-

Here's the text you're referring to:

Many patients request a remembrance of their baby to take home with them. The following lists items and services that some of our previous patients have found helpful in their emotional recovery. Everyone approaches this experience with their own unique emotional, spiritual, and cultural background. There is not right way or wrong way, just "your way". Once the process of healing has begun, you may want to consider a token of the precious time you and your baby had together. All of these features of our program will be discusssed with you while you are with us:

• Viewing your baby after delivery
• Holding your baby after delivery
• Photographs of your baby
• Baptism of your baby, with or without a certificate
• Footprints and handprints of your baby
• Certificate of premature miscarriage
• Cremation
• An urn for ashes
• Arrangement of burial in either Wichita or your home state
• Arrangement of amniocentesis/autopsy
• Medical photographsand x-rays for your health care professional

Grief is a very complex emotion which is expressed in many different ways. We will attempt to accommodate your individual requests to the very best of our abilities.

This does not sound ghoulish to me, having lost a child to miscarriage. This looks like an attempt to help people deal with grief. Although I oppose late-term abortions, I don't appreciate your attempt to score theatrical points from what appears to be a well-meaning attempt to let parents connect with the child they will never know.

[Samurai Waki]

There have been men, who made millions and stood behind the Pro Life Banner, using less than Scrupulous means to attain their wealth. Or do televangelists not exist anymore? I'm not sure if stealing old people's pensions to line one's pocket is morally sound... and yet at the same time feel they can blast abortion doctors, who legitimately believe they are doing a necessary evil. It may be the "devil's" work, but its honest in it's intent.

[Xiahou]

Some (many?) abortions are due to non-viable fetuses. Not everyone is using abortion as birth control. Consider this before you fire your next fusillade.

It's an irrelevant argument to me. I never had any doubt that the man provided some percentage of "abortions" to terminate a non-viable pregnancy. If that were all he performed, a lot of people would likely have viewed him more kindly. However, his practice also provided and advertised elective late-term abortions.

At Women's Health Care Services, we specialize in "late" abortion care. We are able to perform elective abortions to the time in the pregnancy when the fetus is viable. Viability is not a set point in time. Viability is determined by the attending physician and is based on sonogram results, physical examination and last menstrual period date (if known). Our telephone counselors will ask you a number of medical questions to determine if you are eligible for an elective abortion. If you have visited another clinic or physician, we will ask for the results from a recent ultrasound.

Kansas law allows for post-viability abortion procedures when continuing the pregnancy is detrimental to the pregnant woman's health. Each person's circumstances are reviewed on a case-by-base basis. Please call so that we can discuss admission criteria with you.

They're taking care to state Kansas law and then go on to explain the many loopholes for terminating viable pregnancies electively.

It was a disgusting practice. Trying to put a better face on it by saying that some of the abortions were non-viable doesn't change the fact that many were.

[Beskar]

In this thread: The Irony of the Pro-Life Campaigners.

[CountArach]

Godwin's in 15 posts. Well done Xiahou.

[tibilicus]

Do you always use outliers to judge groups, or is it only with people you don't like?

Sarcasm intended also generalising yes, but obviously that doesn't portray my view. I'm not stupid, I know only a small majority of pro-life groups act in a violent manner instead of going through the political system.

Also I don't hate pro-life groups, but I don't endorse the killing of another human.

Please note, message was posted late at night, I was tired and thought a 4 line sentence could some up my "general view". Didn't realise some people would read so deep into it..

Are you done trolling or are you ready to actually see people've been saying about the story? NOBODY here has said "way to go, buddy!" The man acted on his own, and received nearly zero support from every pro-life group. Stop being a total

Should of stated that I'm referring to those extreme pro-lifers. I mean I don't particularly support abortion unless circumstances are extreme. And no it's not just one person, there are some very extreme sects of pro-lifers who have repeatedly attacked doctors who perform abortions homes and seem to see violence as a way of acting against people opposed to their beliefs.

Obviously a vast majority of of pro-life supporters prefer to use the correct legal method but the fact is there's a nubmer which doesn't.

Also my post has clear sarcasam and is obviously not serious. You seem to be getting worked up over nothing. Also what's the purpose of this thread if not to open the abortion debate and highlight the actions of those crazys who take it to far. But yer you cursing me was really productive, gratz.
Partly my fault yes, for not expanding on what I meant but as I mentioned I was tired and the only intention of my post was to highlight hypocrisy, your wrong to portray me as a troll. It's not who I am nor is it what will ever be.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Jesus said in the new testament that he came not to discard the old laws, but to reaffirm them. Maybe not those exact words, its been a while since I heard the quote but its definitely there. I chose that example because the old testament is horrific, the doctor in this thread went after unborn babies, the old testament god went after men, women and children in genocide like fashion. Hence why growing up I was severely discouraged from even touching the old testament. It was just a example.

I choose not to attack your faith or scholarship, but im very curios as to what you consider is "the last word" and "representative" of the christian faith at whole.

Sorry for being somewhat off topic, but I just want to clear this up. I agree that Jesus did not reject the OT, the verse you are thinking of is IIRC Matthew 5:17 - "I did not come to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to destroy, but to fulful".

But I also think PVC is right, in that you do not need to take this interpretation. Of course, if you view the scripture as authoritative as the Southern Baptists or myself do, then you must. But other denominations are not so big on the scriptures authority, and some even happily say that it will contradict itself.

[Dutch_guy]

I have to say im opposed to late Abortions as well but in cases like Lemur mentions i fully support it... does anyone know what what proportion of this doctors abortions would be such a case... and in contrast what proportion of completely healthy fetuses did he perform late term abortions on ?

You could also look at this from the exact opposite way; are there cases in which soon to be parents ask a doctor to perform an abortion on a (seemingly) semi functional fetus ? There's also some hypocrisy in the targetting of doctors in cases such as this, it's the soon to be parents who decide - the doctor can only inform on any risks and actually do the procedure. If one wants to vilify the doctors and call them murderers, then the would-be parents are just as guilty if not morally more so.

[ICantSpellDawg]

You could also look at this from the exact opposite way; are there cases in which soon to be parents ask a doctor to perform an abortion on a (seemingly) semi functional fetus ? There's also some hypocrisy in the targetting of doctors in cases such as this, it's the soon to be parents who decide - the doctor can only inform on any risks and actually do the procedure. If one wants to vilify the doctors and call them murderers, then the would-be parents are just as guilty if not morally more so.

But the parents are spending their own money to destroy their own children. As much as that sickens me, the guilt itself should be unbearable, I believe that the party that makes money from the procedure and actually takes the life should be jailed. The parent should be ashamed to look in the mirror for the rest of their life.

[Hax]

To be honest, I think you have to be a very sick person to carry out late term abortions.

Well Rhyfelwyr, without saying whether I agree or disagree, couldn't the same be said about trying to heal a cancer? I mean, it is going against the laws of nature/God after all? What IF the chances of a miscarriage are substantial (40% up) and the woman would know this, and then would get a late term abortion (I'm not sure whether this is even possible, but I'm not a doctor). Where do you draw the line?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I never said a thing. You said precisely Which to me means cherry picking, maybe to you it means status quo.

Jesus said in the new testament that he came not to discard the old laws, but to reaffirm them. Maybe not those exact words, its been a while since I heard the quote but its definitely there. I chose that example because the old testament is horrific, the doctor in this thread went after unborn babies, the old testament god went after men, women and children in genocide like fashion. Hence why growing up I was severely discouraged from even touching the old testament. It was just a example.

I choose not to attack your faith or scholarship, but im very curios as to what you consider is "the last word" and "representative" of the christian faith at whole.

That depends on your view of your particular upbringing. If you think it's the "whole hog" of Christianity, then I would be cherry picking. If, on the other hand, you view it as one tradition in a fallable world you are free to choose another, different one, without rejecting central tenets of the Faith. If you were discouraged from reading a part of the Bible because it conflicted with what your church taught then your denomination was most definately "cherry picking".

Look, I don't want to get into this, but its possible to take a lot of different messages from scripture as a Christian, even taking into account the whole book.

Sorry for being somewhat off topic, but I just want to clear this up. I agree that Jesus did not reject the OT, the verse you are thinking of is IIRC Matthew 5:17 - "I did not come to abolish the law or the prophets; I did not come to destroy, but to fulful".

But I also think PVC is right, in that you do not need to take this interpretation. Of course, if you view the scripture as authoritative as the Southern Baptists or myself do, then you must. But other denominations are not so big on the scriptures authority, and some even happily say that it will contradict itself.

Bingo, my particular view is that Jesus is being slightly ironic, because this claim is followed directly be rejection of several points of the Old Law. Why say this anyway, unless he appeared to conflict with the Law. What I think Jesus is really saying here is:

"You think you know the Law, but you don't; I do know God's Law, this is it."

He's making a point that what he says conflicts, but he's claiming that the priests etc. are the ones in the wrong, this is why Jesus needs to apply a corrective. I think it's a perfectly reasonable interpretation, and it accords with the Messiah's sense of humour (I think he was a really funny guy, it's why people invited him to dinner).

Take this link: www.drtiller.com/remembrance.html

and put it in to google. Then, Cache the page and look at what this "clinic" used to promote. They would photograph dead babies as a part of their "services". They would perform baptisms of the babies after death. Does that sound normal to you?

The fact remains that the man made millions killing tens of thousands of pre-born infants. He was also one of 3 doctors in the US who performed the most blatantly outrageous forms of infanticide that the law is still gray on. The media didn't need to take a moment of silence for Mengele. Their rememberances betray their much denied bias. The sad thing is that this barbarism hasn't been dealt with in the 21st century.

Every human has elements of humanity in them. It should be no suprise when even the worst of them have loving families. Evil is the sum of the acts that you take in life. By reasonable standards this man was human being who commited a myriad of crimes agaisnt the most innocent among his own people.

Sorry, saw it and I don't read it the way you do. "Late" is a relative term, as far as I can see they only terminate viable foeti if the child is expected to have a severe handicap. I still don't agree with what he was doing but it's not what you are making it out to be.

This guy was an usher at a Lutheran Church when he was shot, do you really believe he was a sociopath?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Sorry, saw it and I don't read it the way you do. "Late" is a relative term, as far as I can see they only terminate viable foeti if the child is expected to have a severe handicap. I still don't agree with what he was doing but it's not what you are making it out to be.

This guy was an usher at a Lutheran Church when he was shot, do you really believe he was a sociopath?

Are you saying that all church goers are decent people and that none of them are sociopaths? In fact, the simple fact that he was a church goer should damn his sanity in the eyes of some forum members, I would think.

The reality is that in a church full of 100 people that Tiller was a part of, If I was forced to guess which one of them was a sociopath, my guess would be the guy that has killed tens of thousands of children for money.

[Dutch_guy]

But the parents are spending their own money to destroy their own children. As much as that sickens me, the guilt itself should be unbearable, I believe that the party that makes money from the procedure and actually takes the life should be jailed. The parent should be ashamed to look in the mirror for the rest of their life.

I believe you're still advocating a double standard here, as taking the money and the life (which in this case is somewhat of a dubious definition) would never have happened were it not for the parents. A doctor could possibly say no (and probably risk a silly lawsuit or whatever), but then he would not be helping the patent or patients (the parents to be) who come to his office to receive help he's been trained to give. If one upholds the extreme viewpoint of the doctor as a murderer, then wouldn't the parents in question be guilty of premeditated murder ? Sentencing the doctor to a life in jail and the ex-parents to a life of shame seems unfairly balanced to the side of the family who made the decision in the first place - and found the funds to make it happen.

[Don Corleone]

Membership, even active participation, is no guarantee of one's true character. The BTK Killer was an Elder in his Lutheran church. Surely we're not going to argue that that justifies his actions?

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well Rhyfelwyr, without saying whether I agree or disagree, couldn't the same be said about trying to heal a cancer? I mean, it is going against the laws of nature/God after all? What IF the chances of a miscarriage are substantial (40% up) and the woman would know this, and then would get a late term abortion (I'm not sure whether this is even possible, but I'm not a doctor). Where do you draw the line?

I don't think there's anything wrong with doctors treating illnesses. The only time I think abortion would be OK is if the mother is likely to die, because then obviously the foetus would die with her. I'm not a doctor either and I've no idea of what exactly a foetus would do if removed prematurely, but I would not like it to be killed deliberately in such a procedue (ie brains sucked through a tube upon removal), should it be involved in an operation due to the mother's health. It's a grey area I don't know a lot about to be honest.

[Chimpyang]

The murder is a sad event, I feel sorry for the victim's family and am in awe of his ability to carry on his work after surviving a previous attempt. It's a necessary service and like it or not, healthcare of any type involves costs and charges, this is no different. You cannot expect someone to remove financial gain from the healthcare system in the US just because of what their work entails

Britain has a position of it actually being illegal, but no doctor would be done for it as long as they followed protocol as it is a legally defensible position (one defence being that not being pregnant is better for the mother's psychological health - or so our ethics and law lecturers tell us). You don't perform a late term abortion unless there are serious developmental defects (e.g. neural tube closing failures) which probably entail stillbirth or early death and my GP tutor is still hallowed by his experience of having to do a relatively later term one in an emergency once (as required by UK law - you are culpable of not performing an emergency procedure because of personal beliefs if you are the only one around) and I don't belive anyone can see it as a trivial or everyday thing. But it is definitely better to have a safer place to do these operations than to push it back out to the back alleys, especially if someone has psych, neurological issues. How do you justify telling a schizophrenic patient who can be mentally unable to make difficult decisions that she should have gotten it together sooner?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Are you saying that all church goers are decent people and that none of them are sociopaths? In fact, the simple fact that he was a church goer should damn his sanity in the eyes of some forum members, I would think.

The reality is that in a church full of 100 people that Tiller was a part of, If I was forced to guess which one of them was a sociopath, my guess would be the guy that has killed tens of thousands of children for money.

Still, these people knew his proffesion, and they still accepted him as a Christian. It is suggestive of his character.

Membership, even active participation, is no guarantee of one's true character. The BTK Killer was an Elder in his Lutheran church. Surely we're not going to argue that that justifies his actions?

Something of a strawman, as he was not hiding the fact he was an abortionist. So your comparison doesn't work.

None of this affects my origonal point, it is un-Christian to reject someone because of their actions, especially if we find those actions repulsive.