Yet another Sweboz question!

**Cyclops** · 06-09-2009, 03:56

Originally Posted by Duguntz

... Now I wanna start a new campain, ...
Opinion?

I recall a really satisfying Sweboz campaign with these limits:

VH/M. General camera. Force mix limits, garrison limits, command span limits, campaign objective limits, combat style.

Force mx limits:

No more than 4 of any one unit type per stack.This forces me to have diverse unit mixes, not clone regiments. If I end up with 5 units of one tyupe in a battle (due to retreats or reiniforcements) the syrplus have to be on AI or they have to stay out of the battle (retreat or stay in the townsquare or whatever)

No more than 4 foot archers or slingers per stack total: THIS IS SWEBOZ.

Garrison limits:

Any number of FM's per city, 0 non-FM, +1 if you have a little granary, +4 if you have a big granary.

Mercenaries may not be used for garrisons for type 1 or 2 settlements.

Command span limits: Units only move with a FM. Up to 8 non-FM units with a FM, up to 12 with the FH, up to 16 with the FL. With force mix limits this gives you raggedy looking stacks: up to 4 FM's, up to 16 non FM's no more than four of each.

Campaign objective limits (during the time of freedom or whatever that first Sweboz era is):

Name an objective city. It must be adjacent to a friendly province or have a coast facing. Raise your army, march to the city, take it, march the army home and disband it. FL to the capital if not on campaign.

If an enemy stack is in a friendly province you may keep an army in being but once they leave you must disband all non-mercs (apart from the allowed garrison).

Mercenaries do not have to be disbanded (but can't be a garrison: stick em in a fort to keep them out of mischief).

Combat style:

Seiges must be resolved by assault as quickly as possible. No hanging around like a clever-clever Greek waiting for someone to starve, its up to the walls like an Uruk-hai.

Seek ambushes everywhere possible, both on the map and in the battle.

Include one headlong charge in every battle, even if this leads to defeat: THIS IS SWEBOZ!.

For allied armies (regional units under client rulers) use appropriate tactics: sword and cav for Celts, HA swirls if you spread east to the plains, clever-clever Greek tactics if you get Massilia etc.

Basically my idea is to have a small tribal force of elites (FM's and mercs) with a large popular levy that only agrees to fight for a short period against a defined threat or objective. Once the time of the spear (or whatever it is) starts I allow standing armies up to the FM's command span.

I want the ebb and flow of raising the royal army each spring, marching out to war, assaulting like hell and trudging home again (leaving 2 or 3 FMs to pacify their new fiefs). To much to remember? Well I like the "taste" of this system, it makes me appreciate the logistics of war even for the barbarous.

That idea mentioned above of building a stack and sending it to pillage until it runs itself into the ground is a pearler.

**Duguntz** · 06-09-2009, 07:05

that is just great! thanks! In fact, i startsd a campain about a week ago using the same kind of rule! 1 fm per army, lots of levy that I disband in their homeland right away after the conquest of the ''objective'' while the medium troops (duguntiz and slagonez) stay a while for garrison. the damn problem is the super FM spanning durring the 10 first years! they're all with good trait, but too much! and as sweboz, i don't wanna let them getting old in a city, they must proove their valor in combat to the Gods!

Now, i'm into the 240's and still not out of germania (althouth I've all of it since loooong!) but hey! I'm proud! usualy by then, i've also all gauls! But I'm waiting home... for those stinky Romans to knock on my door! as for the others rules, I'll as well use them in my current game, as I'm not too far in the game and I've only my homeland conquered... thanks cyclop!

**Cyclops** · 06-10-2009, 04:03

Originally Posted by Duguntz

... lots of levy that I disband in their homeland right away after the conquest of the ''objective'' while the medium troops (duguntiz and slagonez) stay a while for garrison...

Yes I like the idea that the young fellows go home and back to their fields, whereas a more "professional" unit might hang around and accumulate experience. The idea of a gold chevron levy unit is uncomfortable in some ways, although really just a tweak in a pretty satisfactory system.

Gilding the lily, I wonder if it is possible to mod xp caps for unts based on whether they are levy, regular and elite? Say 3, 6 and 9 chevrons respectively.

**Duguntz** · 06-10-2009, 05:22

That's true! it'd be a good idea, and would give kinda accurate account on Battle prowess of every types of warrior (levy, cor troops and elites) But it must be a lot of modification in the files... I mean, I just don't know how it'd be done as I've 0 exp. in Modding any file of any kind!!! BUT it still would be a nice idea. Also, as a house rule, I place type 1 gov, werever is possible, and everywhere else, as allies, place type 4, train a client ruler and then give him complete control of the city (allow complete local gestion) so they're still ''free'' but i, as their lord, may call the troops they train as I want, in time of need. only problem witrh that is that damn, the AI is so stupid in it's construction... well... it's AI!

**Watchman** · 06-10-2009, 20:05

Though it occurs to me that whenever the tribal levy gets called up, it's most of the time going to be more or less the same guys from each region right ? Pretty sure the manpower reserves the Germanic tribal militias tapped weren't exactly deep...

**Duguntz** · 06-10-2009, 20:09

Yeah, that't also true, but as there's time between Raids, and even more time laps between invasion, the population increase, thus allowing for a rotation of men... (anyway, in germanic society, every men of age were requiered to fight wether ordered by their jarl! so even if it were the same men every year (as i have a ''season for raiding'') well, it's their lots in life and those who comeback alive bring to their family glory and plunder!

**Macilrille** · 06-10-2009, 20:35

Dugunz, I am sorry to disagree, but that view is somewhat antequated and romantic. I have no time to elaborate, but suffice it to say that at the start of the EB Timeframe a warrior aristocracy was already emerging.

Off to Iceland tomorrow :-D

**Watchman** · 06-10-2009, 20:57

Also it can be somewhat difficult to get armed and pugnacious peasant-soldiers to go on a campaign or even raid if they don't like the idea - there being an obvious hurdle in *forcing* them. OTOH, from what I know of it your average tribesman wasn't too opposed to the idea... "also soldiers want loot and phat lewts", as it were. Nevermind now any personal or communal grudges and the rest of the junk tribal warriors were motivated by.

**Cyclops** · 06-11-2009, 03:38

Originally Posted by Watchman

Though it occurs to me that whenever the tribal levy gets called up, it's most of the time going to be more or less the same guys from each region right ? Pretty sure the manpower reserves the Germanic tribal militias tapped weren't exactly deep...

Yeah but I imagine they grow up from skirmishers into the levy spearmen and then regular spears (once they get some maturity the boys realise they need to hold onto their spears instead of throwing them away all the time). There's a generational progression, a bit like Hastati/Principes/Triarii.

If we wanted to go nuts

, we could build an engine that provided a range of manpower pools, recruitment and training regimes and equipment. You could have core pools for each regime. Barbaroi could have nobles, free and bondsmen. City states could have Aristocracy/Nobiles, citizens, metics and rabble. Hellenic monarchies would have companion/nobles, yeoman and rabble.

There could be seperate pools for mercenaries and allies with far more limited unit types.

You choose your training/equipment regime to match your manpower: if you train nobles as cav they bring their own horses and fight well, but rabble on horseback are expensive and woeful. Noble/companion inf would be elite but not numerous, so line inf from the yeomanry or citizenry would be more cost effective and give bulk.

Regime type would tweak the pools size: Early Roman republic would give more citizens, Late Republic would have more rabble (but that regime could make decent Marian legionaires out of rabble, for a price).

Anyway that would require a complete rebuild, and I feel the recruitment limits in EB2 will go some way to effeftively rendering this complex issue.

**Duguntz** · 06-11-2009, 06:00

Originally Posted by Macilrille

Dugunz, I am sorry to disagree, but that view is somewhat antequated and romantic. I have no time to elaborate, but suffice it to say that at the start of the EB Timeframe a warrior aristocracy was already emerging.

Off to Iceland tomorrow :-D

Hmmm, you missed my point here! Here, yeah, it's true that every man of age were more or less ALSO the warriors, of their village! even with an warrior class emerging. then, for the rest, I wasn't talking about historical fact, but as my way of roleplaying!

cheers all!!!

**Ca Putt** · 06-11-2009, 12:54

I'd personally give Juguntiz a special standing as, especially the chatti ones, are eager to kill thier first enemy and get their Real spear and thus becoming "proven ones" so Imo most realisitc would be to not disband them until they get a chevron from fighting rather than temples and game fields. after that you can train them again as Dugunthiz. Levy spears and Skutjanz are levied troops or troops that just fight to protect house and wife.they have a regular job in the community and are just marginally fond of fighting(except maybe a little raid to gain some gold and glory once in a while ;) )

if you want a 3 level unit you could add the swordsmen as they not only killed a man in battle but have had the opportunity to kill a man armed with a sword(which are far more plentiful gaul than in the village next door). so you could replace Dugunthiz who earned a chevron in combat with gauls(no spearmen do not count) or romans with Herunautoz.

**Cyclops** · 06-12-2009, 07:49

Originally Posted by Ca Putt

I'd personally give Juguntiz a special standing...

Thats a difficult thing to represent, age cohorts (as opposed to demographic cohorts) progressing their status in society in wealth and obligations.

There's a book I've just seen on "Sex and War" which links demograhy to violence (organsied and disorganised): if you have a bunch of boys coming through you're more likely to have a war (bad news for Iran, and lots of Africa).

I guess there's a model for manpower pools in Victoria, but how complex would this have to be to include maturing cohorts, age-weighted for aggression?

**Ca Putt** · 06-12-2009, 18:55

well just because the boys are not in your Army it doesn't mean they don't exist and I'm pretty sure the Germanic society has much less problems with violent youngsters than a Hellenic or roman society which featured gangs of joyriding sons of senators who burn down Barns :D

furthermore The Jugunthiz were not only defined by age. It was possible that some guys just continued to fight among the Jugunthiz with well above 20 years. (for Chatti) This could be either "achieved" by failing to kill a man in combat or by just being utterly fond of fighting like a hairy barbarian :D.
Afterall I gave a practical solution for the issue. the remaining Upkeep cost are not even to unrealistic as Germanic warriors are not exactly as productive as Kleucheroi ^^ at least Tacitus says so

oh but I have to agree with you on the crime issue. [I was about to turn this into a discussion about abortion but I decided It's best to give that a miss^^]

**Maion Maroneios** · 06-14-2009, 22:19

Seems this has grown into quite a thread. Lots of Philogermanoi here, it seems. No problems there, I am part-Germanos myself too. So things are good. I guess

Maion

**Watchman** · 06-14-2009, 22:31

Personally, I just assume the "generation cycle" in any given unit happens behind the scenes and is in part accounted for in the upkeep costs.

It would also seem to me like rather strange to up and disband "militia" units when they're not in use. Such troops, after all, more or less represent the forces the region (ie. settlement in game terms) can mobilise on reasonable notice if needed, say to deal with a random enemy attack (eg. some random Eleutheroi stack deciding to lay siege to the settlement). Such tribal warbands don't take the better part of a year to call up (as happens if you "re-recruit" them for every campaign), obviously, and doubly so if it's for "home defense".
Improved economic infrastructure allowing the maintenance of an increasing number of such "part-time" tribal warriors can then be thought of as an abstract representation of the increased prosperity of the region enabling more and more men to own the necessary equipement and if need be leave their "day jobs" for a while to fight, growing population just plain enabling the mobilisation of larger numbers, and the spreading influence and growing wealth of the rulers enabling them to better and more efficiently tap the available manpower pool...

Of course, if you want to RP it you should obviously try to return the warriors to their home regions once the campaign is over; with the more "generic" units this is probably best done by keeping track of the general size of a given settlement's contribution and duly returning a like number of units (or thereabouts, depending on what casualty rates were like...) there - it being after all a bit difficult to keep track of where a given unit of Skutjantz or generic Dugunthisomethings originated from...
Easier with the "tribe-specific" ones like Chatti and Chauci troops, obviously.