Carthies in the new world?

[Watchman]

Now I know they had pretty hot ships for the time, but Atlantic crossing...? Sounds extremely dubious.

[IrishHitman]

Egyptian reed ships and large Irish curraghs can make the journey, why can't the Carthies?

I doubt it happened though, they have no reason to go that far West.
They probably ran into the Azores if they got anywhere.

[Olaf The Great]

They definitely had the potential, and theres a Carthaginian Coin that seems to have a map of Europe, Africa, and a western continent.

Incidentally it's the one the EB Icon is taken from, with a horse and a Palm Tree.

EDIT: http://phoenicia.org/imgs/exaggeratedcoinworldmap.jpg

[Ghaust the Moor]

here is a link to a site

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Now I know they had pretty hot ships for the time, but Atlantic crossing...? Sounds extremely dubious.

The norse did it, and the Phoenecians navigated the Horn of Africa around 500 BC. However, I think it more likely they sailed north, then west.

[Watchman]

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.

[Aemilius Paulus]

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.

You certainly have a point about island hopping, and it is known that Phoenicians never strayed far from the shore, nor planned for it. The only possible way for them to reach Americas would seem to me as through a storm that flung them from Africa to Brazil in the narrowest part of Atlantic between the two. And AFAIK, there are speculation that the same happened to Egyptians as well as Phoenicians.

One must also remember the voyages of Hanno the Navigator and most importantly Pytheas, the two greatest tales of Exploration of Antiquity. I suggest all of you who have not yet read about Pytheas read that Wikipedia article. I have my own book on him which I refer to, but given the length of the Wiki article, I am certain it will be quite useful too.

Since I am too lazy to type more, especially since I have already posted his story on .Org, I will simply copy+paste the first paragraph of Wikipedia on him:
Pytheas of Massilia (Ancient Greek Πυθέας ὁ Μασσαλιώτης), 4th century BC, was a Greek geographer and explorer from the Greek colony, Massilia (today Marseille, France). He made a voyage of exploration to northwestern Europe at about 325 BC. He travelled around and visited a considerable part of Great Britain. Some of his observations may refer to Stonehenge, the earliest report (if true). Pytheas is the first person on record to describe the Midnight Sun, polar ice, the first to mention the name Britannia and Germanic tribes and the one who introduced the idea of distant "Thule" to the geographic imagination. His account is the earliest to state that the moon is the cause of the tides.

He reached Britain, Sweden, Denmark and most likely Iceland (he called it Thule and mentioned its volcanoes, and Iceland is the only place that has volcanoes in that part of the world)

[Watchman]

True, but you can do most of *that* sailing by coast-hugging - which indeed was more or less the standard for Mediterranean sea travel, far as I know. Not that Atlantic and Baltic sailors didn't mostly rely on that approach too of course.

Doesn't yet speak of ocean-crossing level of shipbuilding and navigational chutzpah, though obviously an even more salient issue is why they'd have sent an expedition into that featureless desert of open water in the first place...

The "blown astray by storm" theory might work, though I've my doubts about period Mediterranean ships' ability to withstand Atlantic storms - and there's also the obvious question of how they'd then get back...

[Aemilius Paulus]

Doesn't yet speak of ocean-crossing level of shipbuilding and navigational chutzpah, though obviously an even more salient issue is why they'd have sent an expedition into that featureless desert of open water in the first place...

Right again. I read that even Phoenicians were deathly afraid of the wide expanses of the Atlantic, and their coast-hugging was nowhere more apparent than in their Western African voyages.

The "blown astray by storm" theory might work, though I've my doubts about period Mediterranean ships' ability to withstand Atlantic storms - and there's also the obvious question of how they'd then get back...

Alto ugh I do not agree with the theory either, taking your stance on this issue, I do have to point out that storms are too unpredictable and varied to accurately assess the chances of a ship surviving it. There are simply too many factors and variables here.



As for the getting back part, there is nothing like desperation they say... Now, the main problem here is that the marooned Phoenicians would have no idea about the local winds and currents, much less the distance of water required to cover, as it is assumed that the deviation due to a storm was not accurately assesses....

Well, that is why I discount the hypothesis that Phoenicans could have made the voyage in the first place. This still, however, does not discount the possibility of Phoenicians wrecking or being trapped forever in the Americas. Which may still be possible, although, once again, I doubt it.


All this said, a brief glance at a globe(not just a map), will show the folly of such hypotheses, as the smallest distance between the Old and New Worlds is between Liberia and the triangular outer tip of Brazil. Phoenicians were not known to frequent Liberia, AFAIK. Hanno did it, and he was immortalised for it (although it is most likely he reached Cameroon, as testamented by his account of a volcano, the nearest ones which exists in Cameroon).

[Cute Wolf]

After reading those texts, I suppose:
1) Giving the lack of archeological evidence except that coins, we couldn't say that the Karthadastim had allready comes in America... the things will be diffrent if that coins was found on america...
2) The "Wolrd Map" printed on that coins are more likely some sort of religious symbols, or secret sign (such as runes)
3) The Phoenicians are merchants, and they concern about profits, if they really reach america, maybe the romans allready eat chocolate bars and using rubber slings...

[the man with no name]

I think it's true, What about you?

[IrishHitman]

Erm, North Atlantean and Mediterranean shipbuilding were two *very* different fields you know... and even then the Scandinavians "island-hopped" by way of Iceland and Greenland.

Like I said, they probably ran into the Azores or Madeira.

[J.R.M]

I found some crazy stuff

http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa080700a.htm

Is this even real or just some sensacionalist lies or dreams?

[A Very Super Market]

I would imagine that the Romans would have logged this sort of thing happening. Hellenes as well. All there is, is Atlantis, and in no way could it be described as North America.

[Aemilius Paulus]

I found some crazy stuff

http://paranormal.about.com/library/.../aa080700a.htm

Is this even real or just some sensacionalist lies or dreams?

Made up. Not possible that so much proof exists for his idea, and yet no one even considers it seriously. Not to mention, some of the stuff it mentioned were well-known hoaxes. Not a single serious historian supports such ideas. Why? For a good reason obviously. Not like it is some conspiracy here.