Europe

[Beskar]

Actually, there are foreign units stationed in America. But that is irrelevant, because when most of these bases were established, who was going to defend who?

Troops do visit America but there are no foreign bases on American soil. So my point still stands. Also, who will defend them from America? For some-one who apparently dislikes the idea of outsider control, you have no problems with foreign military bases all over your country.

NATO comes immediately to mind.

You mean the treaty which is basically controlled by America, which was created against the threat of the USSR? I see much resistance there from the American Satellite club.

It is an alliance. America is more powerful than Britain, but Britain is no puppet of America.

It is a puppet, it is pretty much a well known fact, hell, it's been in our own media enough times the cartoons of Blair and Bush for example. Blair will got the lapdog award from Bush himself.

Just google image search "Blair Bush" and you will see lots of results.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

At the moment we have full control over this decision. Follow American policy or not. Under EU we would have control of less than a twentieth of actual policy making rather than full control over whether to follow a bigger countrys policy...

You know full well that isn't the case.

Its not a say in America's decisions i want, though we could much more easily persuade them to our views as a unified nation, or at the very least not be small states swayed easily by the much bigger states (USA or in future China)

You don't have to be swayed, controlled, or unified.

So when you said "making us all the same is not a con ?" in response to medilil's pro EU post you didn't actually mean that a single european goverment would make us all the same ?

People aren't the same. I don't want to run the risk of us becoming the same.

Troops do visit America but there are no foreign bases on American soil. So my point still stands.

There are no bases as such, but there are foreign installations and forces stationed in America (by the way, America only has bases in 39 nations, not the 130 that you claimed).

Also, who will defend them from America? For some-one who apparently dislikes the idea of outsider control, you have no problems with foreign military bases all over your country.

I'm not actually a fan of the bases, but they don't intrude on our sovereignty because they are there on our perogative.

You mean the treaty which is basically controlled by America, which was created against the threat of the USSR? I see much resistance there from the American Satellite club.

Doesn't change the fact that we are in NATO out of our own free will. And America still doesn't dictate our foreign policy.

It is a puppet, it is pretty much a well known fact, hell, it's been in our own media enough times the cartoons of Blair and Bush for example. Blair will got the lapdog award from Bush himself.

Blair is not Britain. Britain had the choice to make.

You're ignoring the point. Britain has the sole and complete choice to make where it wants to go with foreign policy. Whether Britain wants to go with America or not is entirely Britain's decision. If Britain follows, it follows - but it was Britain's decision to follow if it did. In the EU, Britain simply wouldn't have this choice.

[Beskar]

There are no bases as such, but there are foreign installations and forces stationed in America (by the way, America only has bases in 39 nations, not the 130 that you claimed).

39 were listed, the rest come under "Other states" which is around 300 installations.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

In addition to my earlier post, many nations, from Britain to Canada, have had or have bases in Germany. America is by no means the only one. Also, today in Germany there are more former than current US Army bases.

Then there is Russia, which has military bases in Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia, the Ukraine and so on.

39 were listed, the rest come under "Other states" which is around 300 installations.

From your link:

The real property portfolio managed by the Department of Defense encompasses a worldwide footprint to include all 50 States, seven U.S. territories, and 39 foreign countries...

[LittleGrizzly]

You know full well that isn't the case.

It pretty much is, we can make some small scale decisions on our own, maybe a bit more aid or aid for something specific. But in terms of real foriegn policy actions there's very little we can do by ourselves, this usually leaves us just going along with what America's doing... With the EU we could have a very meaningful foriegn policy, completely dictated in our terms rather than by a larger power...

Democracy FTW!

You don't have to be swayed, controlled, or unified.

No we don't, but we usually end up swayed, or controlled. So we may as well unify and control our own destiny rather than be swayed or controlled by outside powers..

People aren't the same. I don't want to run the risk of us becoming the same.

I agree with the first statement. The second statement is strange... what risk is there of us becoming the same if every single goverment in exisistance presides over people who are all different...

What about the EU goverment that doesn't exsist in a single goverment anywhere else in the world will make people the same ?!?

Whereas say the German goverment cleverly avoids making all Germans the same...

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

But in terms of real foriegn policy actions there's very little we can do by ourselves

But as a sovereign nation you can change that by yourselves.

With the EU we could have a very meaningful foriegn policy, completely dictated in our terms rather than by a larger power...

No, your entire foreign policy will be dictated by a larger power - the EU. The point is that right now you have a choice whether you want to go with America or not, and under the EU you will have none.

No we don't, but we usually end up swayed, or controlled. So we may as well unify and control our own destiny rather than be swayed or controlled by outside powers..

Unification by definition is giving your destiny to someone else. Right now you can take whatever course you want as a sovereign nation. Under a common foreign policy you would have some influence, but no more than that.

Whereas say the German goverment cleverly avoids making all Germans the same...

It hasn't. But in most cases people value the nation over the region. For me, the nation is the ideal level, and anything above it is too much.

[LittleGrizzly]

But as a sovereign nation you can change that by yourselves.

I suppose technically your right, we could hypothetically set in motion policy now which in the future would result in us having the means to carry out major foriegn policy by ourselves. Realistically speaking your wrong, our heyday is behind is and unless things change direction the meaningul influence we can have on foriegn policy (small as it is) is only going to shrink

No, your entire foreign policy will be dictated by a larger power - the EU.

But we will be that larger power, or to be exact, a part of it. So we will be dictated to by the larger power of ourselves.Rather than the larger power of someone else. To follow your argument to its conclusion would imply that Scotland, England, Wales and Northenrn Ireland have thier own foriegn policy dictated to them, whereas the fact is they dictate thier foriegn policy in unison.

The point is that right now you have a choice whether you want to go with America or not, and under the EU you will have none.

The point actually is that right now we have 100% control of a yes/no choice to go along with what another major power is doing or not. Under the EU we will have less than 5% control of doing whatever we want...

To me less than 5% of whatever you want is a lot better than 100% of only going along with others if you want to...

And TBH the fact is alot of thinking on foriegn policy overlaps in Europe so its not as if Britian is going have its less than 5% against the other 95% all the time.

Unification by definition is giving your destiny to someone else.

So when a couple unify (or marriage as its called) do they both give away any decision making right to some mystical entity called marriage ?

Or does it merely mean there is now 2 people involved in the decision making process rather than just 1 ?

Right now you can take whatever course you want as a sovereign nation.

Technically we can do whatever we want, realistically speaking we can't. The actual situation is of much more concern to me that what we could hypothetically do by ourselves...

Under a common foreign policy you would have some influence, but no more than that.

As i have said, some influence over an independent foriegn policy is far better than complete authority over whether to go along with some other major powers plan...

It hasn't.

Your going to have to provide me a definition of what you mean by making Germans the same...

Our British goverment must be much better than i thought then... from region to region britian is different, cross the border from Wales into England and people will not tire of telling you how different the Welsh are to the English... this despite having the same goverment for hundreds of years...

Though in all honesty i think people worldwide are pretty similar, then there are slight differences even as you go from one village to a neighborouring village... if your worried about people being the same globalisation and the internet are your enemies, simply living under one goverment doesn't eradicate differences as shown by Britian. The internet and globalisation are doing far more work to make us one people... also American cultural influence... again a far bigger eradicator of our differences in europe than one goverment would be...

Unless you mean silly differences like different currencys or different plug sockets...

For me, the nation is the ideal level, and anything above it is too much.

What level is the nation level ?

The EU would be smaller (population wise at least) than India and China, are these not nations ?

What about America ? surely that is too big ?

[Sarmatian]

But as a sovereign nation you can change that by yourselves.

Can you really? Let's take a not so hypothetical situation. Germany doesn't want Ukraine or Georgia in NATO, because of the simple fact that it will worsen relationship with Russia. Doesn't matter if it is right or wrong or if you agree with it or not personally with this German policy, this is a point where German government and American government disagree. Yet, America is pushing and inviting Ukraine and Georgia at NATO summits, having NATO exercises in Georgia and blah, blah. Naturally, this worsens German and Russian relationship, precisely what German government didn't want.

Europe wants alternative sources of natural gas and oil. Not just because of the political reasons but diversifying your suppliers base is always good. The only country in the vicinity with enough gas is Iran. Europe wants it, US says no. Instead Europe is forced to wait for the eventual Nabucco (which would be US sponsored and controlled), which might never happen as there aren't enough reliable sources of gas.

You may think it's all worth if it will keep America on your good side or that America deserves some leniency because they are investing so much in NATO or whatever but don't kid yourself. By being in NATO and by being dependent on American foreign policy, European countries already surrendered part of its sovereignty, which you treasure so much and are worried that EU will steal from you.

There are only two truly sovereign countries in the world - USA and China. Russia comes close, then come other bigger countries, like India. Then there's a decent gap and then larger European nations come into play. And with how things are developing in 21st century, that gap will become bigger and bigger.

No, your entire foreign policy will be dictated by a larger power - the EU. The point is that right now you have a choice whether you want to go with America or not, and under the EU you will have none.

That's true somewhat. Now you don't have a say in what will happen but you can agree or disagree, which will be duly noted and archived and it will still be happening, whether you like it or not. That's in the case of bigger European countries. In the case of smaller countries, even that is not true. Czech politicians openly admitted that the main reason Czech recognized Kosovo is immense pressure from the US. In the case of a strongly federal EU you will have less freedom to agree or disagree but you will have a say in what's gonna happen.

[Beskar]

Admittedly, I googled around and it mentioned different kinds of numbers, that one seemed constant.