The U.S. Health Care Debate

**KukriKhan** · 06-27-2009, 01:46

Originally Posted by Gelatinous Cube

Even though I'm a smoker, I agree with this.

I'm on-board too. I'm convinced that my vices (cigarettes, beer) will probably statistically not only shorten my life, but also make end-of-life measures more expensive. I'll pay for that, for the privilege of indulging my bad habits.

But again, we're not talking about health care here, we're talking about insurance, and betting with or against "the odds", and putting down the appropriate ante into the insurance "pot".

-edit-
I have a (:crosses fingers:) stellar driving record: no accidents or citations in 44 years and 2.5 million miles driven. Yet I know that I will pay more to GEICO to insure a fire engine red convertible Corvette, than I will for a beige tudor ford escort. The Corvette will cost more to replace, and it's a both citation- and accident-magnet.

**Proletariat** · 06-27-2009, 02:13

Originally Posted by KukriKhan

I'm on-board too. I'm convinced that my vices (cigarettes, beer) will probably statistically not only shorten my life, but also make end-of-life measures more expensive. I'll pay for that, for the privilege of indulging my bad habits.

They don't, tho. The 'smokers should pay' garbage is just a guilt trip. If you get lung cancer and die of it, you'll spend 6 months in a hospital dieing on pain meds around age 70. If you live to 98 with full blown Alzheimer's you'll need round the clock care, often costing as much as 7-8k a month until you finally pass. Plus, you paid more into the healthcare kitty with all your sin tax contributions from buying your cigarettes (I know you get your's from the Ukraine, but you get the idea).

Whether it's more expensive or not, it shouldn't matter. Should homosexual men pay more for insurance since their lifestyle puts them at higher risk for disease? Should blacks pay more for their higher incident rates for heart conditions? How about the obese? You eat more than two cheeseburgers a week and you better pay, fatty. What about scuba divers and their burden on emergency care?

Make it honestly universal or don't bother at all, sez I.

**Beskar** · 06-27-2009, 02:24

I like how Gelantinous Cube pretty much has the free universal healthcare option because he is in the army, but is against it. In America, isn't it 60% cannot afford Health Insurance? I remember seeing Americans get chemo-treatment then stay in tents outside the hospital as they couldn't afford to have a bed on the inside due to the costs.

Basic and Essential Healthcare should be free as a human right. However, if you want cosmetics or anything like that, you pay for it. (outside grievous injury and other things)

**Crazed Rabbit** · 06-27-2009, 02:39

Originally Posted by Proletariat

They don't, tho. The 'smokers should pay' garbage is just a guilt trip. If you get lung cancer and die of it, you'll spend 6 months in a hospital dieing on pain meds around age 70. If you live to 98 with full blown Alzheimer's you'll need round the clock care, often costing as much as 7-8k a month until you finally pass. Plus, you paid more into the healthcare kitty with all your sin tax contributions from buying your cigarettes (I know you get your's from the Ukraine, but you get the idea).

Whether it's more expensive or not, it shouldn't matter. Should homosexual men pay more for insurance since their lifestyle puts them at higher risk for disease? Should blacks pay more for their higher incident rates for heart conditions? How about the obese? You eat more than two cheeseburgers a week and you better pay, fatty. What about scuba divers and their burden on emergency care?

Make it honestly universal or don't bother at all, sez I.

The opinion essay about the Safeway insurance said that it cost the company $1400 more per year to insure a smoker. I can't speak for whatever method they used to come up with that number. They also did do health check-ups on employees, so obese people did pay more.

In America, isn't it 60% cannot afford Health Insurance?

No. Much, much less.

I like how Gelantinous Cube pretty much has the free universal healthcare option because he is in the army

No, he doesn't. He earned that healthcare and it was not free.

Basic and Essential Healthcare should be free as a human right.

Why should it be a right for a sick person to take money from others to get care for themselves?

CR

**LittleGrizzly** · 06-27-2009, 02:56

Why should it be a right for a sick person to take money from others to get care for themselves?

Because whereas some animals leave thier sick to look after themselves we like to think we are above that.

**Husar** · 06-27-2009, 13:34

Originally Posted by Proletariat

Make it honestly universal or don't bother at all, sez I.

Commie!

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**rory_20_uk** · 06-27-2009, 13:58

AS far as I am aware, soldiers get free healthcare, and support after discharge. So it's a non-issue with the employer picking up the tab.

Massive detail into lifestyle would be difficult, but considering here in the UK most of the needed data is held by GPs it would be very simple to develop quite complex pictures about health. Would some lie? Probably. But as with all insurance it is invalidated if falsification is found.

**KukriKhan** · 06-27-2009, 14:19

Originally Posted by rory_20_uk

AS far as I am aware, soldiers get free healthcare, and support after discharge. So it's a non-issue with the employer picking up the tab.

Massive detail into lifestyle would be difficult, but considering here in the UK most of the needed data is held by GPs it would be very simple to develop quite complex pictures about health. Would some lie? Probably. But as with all insurance it is invalidated if falsification is found.

You've hit on another aspect of the talked-about but not yet written down plan over here: cut costs by digitizing med records, the easier to share patient history and treatment among Docs.

Makes sense to avoid duplication of effort, but many are worried about the security of such a system, and the use of the info by gov't, insurance and employer groups to deny treatment, coverage, or even employment, based on risk actuarial tables.

Why hire a 40-year old welder for your factory, if his father, mother & grandfather all died of heart attacks in their late 40's?

-edit-
Just thought I'd throw in this BBC story about an entire village smoking cigarettes one day every year.

**Hosakawa Tito** · 06-27-2009, 23:15

Here's a take from a former Canadian doctor. Like BG, I was also concerned and disgusted that Lemur felt the need to doctor himself with that hand injury rather than jump through hoops with his insurance company. I think Kukri was on the money when he said it appears to be more of an insurance problem than a health care one. I really don't know what a viable solution would be, but something needs to be done. A not for profit health insurance company for those that don't have any sounds like a good idea to keep costs down, but will it eventually lead to all employers just dumping their health plans for employees and forcing most people into this government plan?

From a personal stand point, if what this doctor says about the Canadian health care system is true about waiting lists for CT/MRI scans... I'd not have survived that brain aneurysm several years ago.

**Louis VI the Fat** · 06-28-2009, 02:01

Some thoughts:

The litigation culture in the US drives up healthcare costs. This is partly owing to individual risks not being socialised. In Europe, if you become disabled, welfare will take care of you. In the US, somebody responsible must financially compansate you. (To put it very schematically, but the mechanism is there, and not just in healthcare)
Are European healthcare costs shifted to social welfare costs? Americans by contrast pay less for welfare, more for healthcare. Is a good deal simply a matter of where costs appear? I lack numbers, but I expect so.
(There are pro's and con's to either system. For the proponents of individual responsibility - which always at first glance sounds the more reasonable choice - the following joke, that I unfortunately don't know how to tell well: a man falls down on a New York pavement in agony, grabbing his heart with his hands. One man rushes towards him, another flees the scene. The former is a lawyer, the latter a doctor)

Surely, (insurance for) litigation can not account for several percent of GDP? Litigation is rampant in the US, but it can not account for the huge gap in healthcare spending between the US and other developed nations. I need numbers. (We are in dire need of statisticians and number crunchers in this thread!)

Capitalism has two meanings. Free market, and putting the interests of corporations first. American families suffer because they believe that what is good for corporate America, is ultimately good for them. The medicinal-industrial complex knows otherwise.
Free markets are great, therefore corporations will do anything to destroy them. The federal government ought to resume control of the healthcare market and put better incentives into place. Currently, they work to the disadvantage of the people.

The US scores very low on international healthcare comparison lists. Infant mortality and the like. Yet, America also scores near the top on other lists. I think this is more a matter of income distribution than healthcare. Simply put, poor babies die out of want, and the well-to-do have a $100.000 heart surgeory.
This is a cultural difference, a political and societal choice. Not a matter of disorganised healthcare.

**Evil_Maniac From Mars** · 06-28-2009, 01:25

Originally Posted by Husar

Concerning the whole choice thing, joining the military in the US is also a choice, does that mean soldiers would have to pay the most? Don't let patriotism get in the way of your judgement here...

There is a bit of a difference between smoking and joining the military, and American soldiers certainly should enjoy subsidized health insurance because:

1) They are working for their country in one of the most difficult jobs it offers.
2) There is a large difference between working in a necessary job and killing yourself with junk food.
3) For all the things that they sacrifice it is the least that we can do in return.