Official EB Tournement Thread

[Alsatia]

Which Hamachi severs will be used for the tournament?

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah! Debates!

Do you know what I actually don't understand? Isn't it natural for the Sweboz to die like flies when their soldiers are unarmoured? That's just the nature of their military, I don't really understand why you guys are so obsessed with bringing everyone down to the same level. If you want a "fair" fight with the Sweboz, just make sure you fight a battle in woods or something. Ambushes, anyone? The purpose of this Tournament, as far as I've understood, is just to put all factions together and determine the winner through some restrictions that are the same for all factions. By bringing everyone to the same level, you loose the point of the whole Tournament.

I'm not trying to make everyone super balanced atleast I'd like to think that. The main reason for giving the Germans and Getai that weapon upgrade was to preserve their weakness to missiles but allow them to make up for one of their advantages: numbers. Do you think it would be as easy to win if the Germans or Getai decided to bring 30-40 units against you? Their budget and unit costs would allow it BUT they aren't allowed to. How is THAT fair to them? The problem with the tournement is that it was based on the assumption that the game is funnest with 20 unit armies. That is true. Its epic and fun, balanced on the micromanagement front, but its not balanced numbers wise. The best solution would be to use a custom edu that gave them bigger units @ scaled up price.

I mean, it wasn't 16K Greeks against 12K Persians at Gaugamela was it?

Do you want a solution from me? Implement the defender-chooses-his-battleground system. Because I know simply shouting the rule system is wrong is not right and won't get anywere. The only thing I ask you to do, at least, is to simply consider my points and aknowledge that what you're doing is bringing all factions down to the same level. Every faction has its own weaknesses and strong points, that's just the way things are no matter what you want to believe. The Romans didn't beat the Macedonians because they had better quality armies per se (which they did, by the way), but because they were more prepared, has must greater resources and the determination to keep coming back.

This is somewhat already true. The problem is that if we did that, we would have to manage each battle to decide who gets boned by the map. The whole point of this tournement setup was to have as little management as possible. Now its up to the individual players to decide who gets to host and pick the map.

As for chevrons, well. The Romans really have more money than they can spend unless they pick elephants in Polybian every time. Like the Getai, they should be able to mass larger armies(about the same as one with a large phalanx contingent) in game but can't be exploited online. If you want to really be anal retentive about it, pretend all Polybian Romans that fight your Maks are Punic War veterans and its the first Macedonian War. :-p

But if you still refuse to listen to me and take those fingers out of your ears, I guess there is no other option left that to actually let you see what is going to happen practically if those rules are implemented. And I want to see if you're going to have the guts to admit you were wrong then, because I'm almost certain our victory percentages are going to fall at least above 40%. Just to show you, I'm probably going to fight several battles with some mates with the new rules, and show you the results.

Maion

I'm not ignoring you guys. That's why I posted that post this morning to get you guys to shoot back. Go test the modified rules and report back with the results. I want to know if its truely balanced. Goes for anyone else who has time.

Argumentation that barbarians should die like flies would be indeed reasonable - but only if other historical condition is also met - that barbarians are present by sheer numbers on battlefield.
Since it is simply not possible in EB, and actually this is hellens who dominate also numerically - thanks to their big phalanx units - then favoring barbarians in some way is rather out of question.

My thinking now is to keep 40 000 budget - that way barbarians can spend not only for additional elites but also more units can get 1 chevron.

I dunno about it. Though you are right, 40K is needed for the Gauls and their extra elites. I guess I'll set it back up there. 36K just seemed to me the best balance for Hellenic factions and their elite/levy %'s.

I like most of these rules, but not all. My biggest complain is the way to determine elite(/heavy) when descriptions do not help. But not only.

Do we really want to make lists? I can do the ones for Rome and Baktria... It might be for the best if we have an official list. Most of the EB vets know what's elite and not by heart so I guess it wouldn't be too hard if everyone pitched in.

Which Hamachi severs will be used for the tournament?

EBOT2 still should have some room. Password EB. The official tournement rooms will open later and I'll boot people at around 6PM (bi)daily to keep them open.

[Knight of Heaven]

1) Praetorian Cavalry - is it Medium or Heavy?
They throw javelins and skirmish, so apparently they are Medium, according to these rules.
But since Romans are cheap and can afford 1 chevron for most units, then upgraded Praetorian Cav reaches truly elite level in Cav vs Cav battles. They are beaten only by strong elites after long time defence, and can inflict serious damage when charging.
So if they are Medium - I dont like the idea. It means Roman can field up to 5 "medium" but indeed pumped by chevron to heavy/elite units, and still can recruit 6 foot elites.

So maybe cavalry/elephants should not be upgraded.

2) How to determine elite archer/slinger when description do not help?
Or - do we count archers/slingers at all as elites?

I belive praetorians were elite, even in cav, it doesnt matter if they trow javelins. historicaly praetorians were a elite troop implemented by Augustus. so.

i have a opinion related to archers and slingers, is they shouldnt be considered elite, i mean archery wasnt a main role in warfare at the time, main exception was steep factions i belive, alltough i belive they shouldnt considered as elite for other factions that are not steepe, it should have numbers restrictions.

I'm not trying to make everyone super balanced atleast I'd like to think that. The main reason for giving the Germans and Getai that weapon upgrade was to preserve their weakness to missiles but allow them to make up for one of their advantages: numbers. Do you think it would be as easy to win if the Germans or Getai decided to bring 30-40 units against you? Their budget and unit costs would allow it BUT they aren't allowed to. How is THAT fair to them? The problem with the tournement is that it was based on the assumption that the game is funnest with 20 unit armies. That is true. Its epic and fun, balanced on the micromanagement front, but its not balanced numbers wise. The best solution would be to use a custom edu that gave them bigger units @ scaled up price.

I mean, it wasn't 16K Greeks against 12K Persians at Gaugamela was it?

I agree with this.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I would join Arche Seleukia.

Edit.: I already played some Eb online battles and i think i have a good overview of the balance. Barbarains should get in my opinion more men in each company too otherwise they dont can stand against romans and hellens. Roman legionarys are way to cheap, they even defeat phalanx units like agryaspidy in a longer melee. The same is for dismounted pretorians. And the phalanx units of the hellenistic factions arent really a advantage for them because even factions like phartia gets phalanx units (Merchanry). And the elite phalanx units arent hardly stronger than the merchanery one.

[Phalanx300]

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

They applied many tactics, and they did face the Romans and Celts head on in the open, Cimbri for example, treatening Rome and defeating them many times.

You seem to mistake them for the Lusotannan who's main tactic is ambush.

You talked about him putting Hellenes at disadvantage, he's a Hellene himself so knows very well what he's doing. He also was playing as a Roman in the last tourney.

[Maion Maroneios]

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Maion

[antisocialmunky]

Did anyone fight them with an abudant number of javelineers and/or archers on a flat, non-forested terrain in any fight? I believe the fear was due to their ambushes, were they excell.

ASM doesn't play all factions, so he can't have a spherical oppinion on this.

Maion

Yeah they die horribly if they get strung out. That's why I limited skirmishers. To be honest, mass skirmisher harass isn't that effective since your opponent can just hold until you're out of ammunition.

...

Maion

We could just trash the weapons upgrades, keep the chevrons, give all the N barbarians 8 elites, and allow barb players to quit maps without trees. I think also that the 36K price point is pretty balanced by itself but the barbarians really need an extra something to make up for the fact that they can't mass effectively. Besides, the N barbarians should be able to fight set piece battles to a certain extent. They certainly did many times and relied on mass, shock, and mobility:

-Brennus brought ~150K men into Greece in his campaign.
-Cimbri numbered as many as 200K during their initial migration into Roman lands.
-Gaeasatae numbered around 70K during their expedition in Italy.

You're asking for a double standard: The greeks have the ability to field the pinnicle of Hellenic armies, an Alexandrian Phalanx and supporting troops, while the N barbarians can't create huge masses of levy troops twice the size of the Mediterranian armies... Instead you want them to only be able to field armies that are small and have crap morale. That's like forcing the the Hellens to play at 30K where the Greeks get stomped.

That's not to say that they didn't use smaller armies with a larger professional core or anything like that...

Its too bad that the Getai and Sweboz players aren't around to help us test.

@Phalanx - Can oyu kick all the inactives in EBOT01?

[darius_d]

I don't want to mess more, but maybe one of solution is to limit hellens (and perhaps Romans and Cartaginians) to 18 units, keeping the same budget as all others? This would create numerical advantage for barbs/eastern.


Besides, I hope some people from EB core team follow multiplayer and tournament topics and possibly next EB 1.x update can make a whole difference on multiplayer settings. I encourage all of you guys to make a helpful wishlist, so that this wonderful mod can live long.

[Apázlinemjó]

I don't want to mess more, but maybe one of solution is to limit hellens (and perhaps Romans and Cartaginians) to 18 units, keeping the same budget as all others? This would create numerical advantage for barbs/eastern.

Now that's a good idea. 36K and Hellenes and Romans can use 18 units maximum, that means they don't lose quality, but numbers only, which is quite fair to other 'weaker' factions.

[Maion Maroneios]

Have you ever thought of multiple armies?

Maion

[Aulus Caecina Severus]

Last night a dream give me this strange solution:

MAKE FIXED FORMATIONS:

for example who use romani must do this formations: 1 general,4 triarii, 5 principes, 4 hastati, 2 equites and 2 accensi;

who use makedonia must do : 1 general, 2 hatairoi, 6 phalanx, 2 cretan arc, 4 classical hoplites, 2peltastai

who use lusitani must do: 1 general, 2 iberi lancearii, 2 slingers, 2 ambushers, 4 scutari, 4 caetrati, 2 asturian axmen

ecc

We test this formation before starting tounament... of course

So, in this way, we solve all problems about elites, cheating, balance of faction, mnai, ecc

In this way, we make general more important than faction he choose. And the winner is best general, not best faction (that is hellenic thanks phalanx/hetairoi/cretan combination).

[tsidneku]

Severus, the idea of "set" army compositions was put forth a long time ago. While I personally don't see too much of a problem with that, I think most of the members here agree that army composition and crafting a unique balance to face the right foe is part of the game. Even with your suggestion, unless there was some ridiculous upset, certain factional match-ups would always be one-sided.

[antisocialmunky]

Have you ever thought of multiple armies?

Maion

I've toyed around with the idea. Basically my idea would be that Germans, Getai, Gauls, Lusto, and Casse can optionally choose 2 vs 1(20K + 20K vs 40K) instead of 1 vs 1 other factions but I'm not sure how up to it everyone is. A barb win would count as 0.5 wins per each barb player and 1 loss on the other player.

If people are up for it, that would be the best way to do it.

I would idealy have to make all the restrictions even numbered (cav @ 4, heavies @ 2, Mercs @ 6).

[vartan]

I've toyed around with the idea. Basically my idea would be that Germans, Getai, Gauls, Lusto, and Casse can optionally choose 2 vs 1(20K + 20K vs 40K) instead of 1 vs 1 other factions but I'm not sure how up to it everyone is. A barb win would count as 0.5 wins per each barb player and 1 loss on the other player.

If people are up for it, that would be the best way to do it.

I would idealy have to make all the restrictions even numbered (cav @ 4, heavies @ 2, Mercs @ 6).

The restrictions wont have to be even-numbered as long as the units combined fit into said restrictions (e.g. if 5 cav max and if player A has 1 cav in his army, then player B can have up to 4 cav total in his army).

[Alsatia]

Ah... so youre saying that only five cav can be used in total, or am I fooling myself?

I'd rather restrict my own units than shared restrictions to all. How would you know they did not cheat until the game starts?

I have made another EB network at hamachi to even players out between EBOT01 and 02.


Currently, the networks are

EBOT01
EBOT02
EBOT03

Password for all is EB.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm skeptical that some of the people would be able to coordinate effectively. I guess we can give it a shot though and I would prefer shared restricts since it gives the barbs the ability to split their cav/ infantry stc. But that might be too big of a micro advantage.

[Alsatia]

Any advantage is good for them.. they "die like flies".

Because of my foolish noobishness, I have to ask this, what's a run through?

[antisocialmunky]

A run through is when you run your troops through opponent's troops. I have rules relating to that in the fairness section I believe.

I also added team vs team rules and moved the mnai budget back to 36K so people can't have 100% professional armies. It was mainly moved back to 40K because Gauls couldn't afford 8 elites.

Remember this starts July 1st!

Have fun and good luck!

PS. Here's a fun replay that I encourage people to watch since its epic pwnage against a phalanx box:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f...4e75f6e8ebb871

PPS. I'm going to start posting the unit lists tonight. I was wondering what people would think if I didn't make Triarii elite? Syracusian Hoplites are pretty much the same and they aren't elite.

[Phalanx300]

A run through is when you run your troops through opponent's troops. I have rules relating to that in the fairness section I believe.

I also added team vs team rules and moved the mnai budget back to 36K so people can't have 100% professional armies. It was mainly moved back to 40K because Gauls couldn't afford 8 elites.

Remember this starts July 1st!

Have fun and good luck!

PS. Here's a fun replay that I encourage people to watch since its epic pwnage against a phalanx box:
http://www.mediafire.com/?sharekey=f...4e75f6e8ebb871

PPS. I'm going to start posting the unit lists tonight. I was wondering what people would think if I didn't make Triarii elite? Syracusian Hoplites are pretty much the same and they aren't elite.

So its going to be 36k or 40k for this tourney?

The difference is that the Triarii were the elite soldiers of the early Roman legion and Syracusians were standard issue soldiers.

Oh, and tests and stuff are over for this year so I should be able to enter the tourney again.

[antisocialmunky]

I'm going to set it at 36K. This forces hellens to decrease the quality of their phalanx of cavalry arms. It also makes Rome slightly less broken so they can't go for elephant and a full cavalry arm without taking the experience off their units. The barbs of course get a little more balanced for 1 vs 1 since they can go for quality without being out qualitied by the hellens.

So I think its a good balance. Feel free to yell at me.

At any rate, what faction do you want to be Phalanx?

[Phalanx300]

I'm going to set it at 36K. This forces hellens to decrease the quality of their phalanx of cavalry arms. It also makes Rome slightly less broken so they can't go for elephant and a full cavalry arm without taking the experience off their units. The barbs of course get a little more balanced for 1 vs 1 since they can go for quality without being out qualitied by the hellens.

So I think its a good balance. Feel free to yell at me.

At any rate, what faction do you want to be Phalanx?

I think I'll go Koinon Hellenon, had enough Sweboz for now.


Edit: Who am I kidding, Sweboz it is!

[Apázlinemjó]

I have to resign from participating in the tournament, because I will be busy with my summer-work in July and I don't think I will have the will to play when I get home wearily. Maybe in the next one. :/

[Knight of Heaven]

I have to resign from participating in the tournament, because I will be busy with my summer-work in July and I don't think I will have the will to play when I get home wearily. Maybe in the next one. :/

Yeah the same for me, ill have much to do, but i will keep an eye on you guys, how are the battles doing, so keep post online battles, and fun histories :P

[antisocialmunky]

Alright, don't feel bad about ocming back though. I'm going to run this for all of July or whenever everyone is sick of online play.

[Geticus]

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[Flavius_Belisarius]

I have a few questions. So when i play as Arche Seleukia i can take maximal 5 cavalry? Do i have to join EBOT01 or EBOT02?

[Alsatia]

Read the rules, and you can join any of the below:

EBOT01
EBOT02
EBOT03

Passwords for all three is EB (but EBOT01 is always full......)

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I read the rules several times but was not sure, anyway now im sure.

[Flavius_Belisarius]

I ready the rules but i want to be 100% sure. So its maximal allowed to upgrade ONE expierence and no weapon or armor upgrade ?

[tsidneku]

What about maps? Can we play on any one that both sides agree to? Is there a list? I noticed your addendum about how one can reset if the map starts no a hillside or around closely spaced buildings.