What animals are ours to kill, and eat, and skin... etc

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

well, if you refuse to believe, then go on, believe your own fallacies.

and the thing about the talmud, G-d told us to listen to the Rabbis, soooooo......
equation:
g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

OR

Rabbis write that you have to listen to Rabbis, God not directly involved.

As I say, when the heart stops the human brain remains alive for four minutes, I see no reason to believe that is significantly different in Mammals, and given that they have done things like transplant extra brains into Dogs all the evidence points that way.

Against that you have a book written in an alphabet that wasn't even concieved when most of the events it purrports to relate took place.

We aren't going to aggree on this, but don't casually tell me just cutting their throat is so humane without any actual evidence.

[Hooahguy]

Against that you have a book written in an alphabet that wasn't even concieved when most of the events it purrports to relate took place.

please, do even a LITTLE bit of research.
the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.
but lets not digress.

We aren't going to aggree on this, but don't casually tell me just cutting their throat is so humane without any actual evidence.

i dont know, when that cow was slaughtered he looked pretty dead within 5 seconds, but ok, think what you want.
this is like debating for Israel: hitting up against a concrete wall.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

please, do even a LITTLE bit of research.
the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.
but lets not digress.

I think you mean Phonecian, Hebrew as a written language is only around 3,000 (1000 BC) years old (greek 2,800-600), the events of Exodus and the end of Genesis are dated around 2000-1400 BC. So the "historical" events are recorded in an alphabet that is at best 400 years younger than the events it records. That's old as good as the Iliad, which even at it's most optimistic is not considered to be a "history" but rather a legendary account.

Edit: Oh, and irrc, most copies of even the early books are written in the Aramaic script, which puts them to about 600 BC (after the Exile).

Edit 2: Hmmm, a little further digging seems to suggest there are apparently older copies. Oh well.

i dont know, when that cow was slaughtered he looked pretty dead within 5 seconds, but ok, think what you want.
this is like debating for Israel: hitting up against a concrete wall.

Oh, I grant, looks dead, and will be so but that doesn't mean it doesn't have another three minutes to go.

[Whacker]

Hooahguy, you need a healthy dose of Ego Check©.

Cutting an animal's throat is an excruciating and slow way to die. Your statement is patently false, there is absolutely no spot on an animals neck that will kill it "instantly", save for completely severing the spinal cord which even then is not instantaneous. The Wikipedia entry is exactly what my understanding is regarding kosher animal slaughter from reading other sources. In summary, the animal's throat is cut and that is all, it suffers and bleeds out. There is no "spinal cord severing".

Sorry. Kosher animal slaughter is barbaric, modern methods are far more humane.

[Hooahguy]

Hooahguy, you need a healthy dose of Ego Check©.

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law.

[Whacker]

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law.

Clearly, I'm always open to learning and to the possibility of being wrong. So are you going to educate me here, or are you going to continue to post snide, condescending, and insulting remarks with no bearing to the argument or supporting facts?

[Hax]

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law.

Being a vegetarian, I'd rather see animals being killed without suffering (which should be possible) than living its final moments in fear of the knife that will end its life.

Also, I think the scientific world has generally established not all scriptures in the Torah/Bible are correct. Or are you going to suggest the world is 6,000 years old? Of course, you can keep believing in those "fallacies", if I might be free enough to use your own speech.

[Hooahguy]

Clearly, I'm always open to learning and to the possibility of being wrong. So are you going to educate me here, or are you going to continue to post snide, condescending, and insulting remarks with no bearing to the argument or supporting facts?

ok, ok.
one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.
and i still strongly disagree that slicing a deep cut in the neck is painless. as far as i know, arent the nerves for cows near the front? so a deep cut would slice the nerves, causing little pain. but wouldnt a nail gun or whatever "modern" methods are used leave the nerves intact?

oh, sorry for pointing out how oblivious you are to Jewish law, and sorry for the pain i caused you.

[LittleGrizzly]

Im happy for people to kill any animal aslong as it's made useful (food, clothes)

Obviously you shouldn't take someone else's animal, but a wild one or one you own is perfectly reasonable...

I would be against killing endangered species...

I feel a little uneasy about eating our close relatives in the animal kingdom, and intelligent animals in general. Though i think thats because i see it as a waste of greater potential, that being said i wouldn't stop people eating our close relatives or intelligent animals...

IIRC pigs are quite clever by animals standards and i enjoy sausages and bacon (pork isn't too bad)

[Beskar]

I think Hooahguy is just trolling everyone, it is the only logical conclusion. From when he mentions that in the Talmud that YHWH said to listen to the Rabbi's then clarifies it saying that the Talmud was written by the Rabbi's says enough.

[Hooahguy]

I think Hooahguy is just trolling everyone, it is the only logical conclusion. From when he mentions that in the Talmud that YHWH said to listen to the Rabbi's then clarifies it saying that the Talmud was written by the Rabbi's says enough.

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.
keep talking Beskar, you crack me up.

sorry for my snide remarks. i just hate people who dont know a thing about judasim but think they do.

[LittleGrizzly]

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.

If you can provide conclusive evidence that God said anything anywhere you'll help solve a hell of a lot of arguments...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.
keep talking Beskar, you crack me up.

sorry for my snide remarks. i just hate people who dont know a thing about judasim but think they do.

I have very little time for people who simply quote their Holy Book in an attempt to avoid an arguement. Particually the Holy Book you adhere to, replete as it is with copy errors, inconsistancies, blatently welding together of seperate texts, etc.

[Hax]

that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages

Well, that sounds pretty -- wait, what?

g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

That's circular logic, and is not a good way to discuss subjects. It's saying the Torah is right because it says it's right.

[Jolt]

Well, that sounds pretty -- wait, what?

You have no idea how much I laughed at your phrase.

[miotas]

the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.

Gah? Polynesian?

[Hooahguy]

Gah? Polynesian?

yaya, i know a mistake. sorry bout that.

[Hax]

one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.

Try abstaining from meat altogether. It's the easiest way to not eat blood.

[Hooahguy]

Try abstaining from meat altogether. It's the easiest way to not eat blood.

well, considering cows and sheep and other animals were part of sacrifices....

[Hax]

Hooahguy, I don't think you can call Whacker oblivious. You are Jewish yourself, and as such cannot look at ritual animal slaughter in a completely neutral way. Whacker, however, can.

You are talking from a religious point of view, stating that the Torah is infallible. I'm afraid that following such logic in a modern society is virtually impossible, unless you enclose yourself in a society which shares the same point of view as yourself.