What animals are ours to kill, and eat, and skin... etc

[Hooahguy]

I checked just in case, the animal must be concious and the spine must not be severed at the first cut, the two main ways of limiting suffering.

So, I am quite happy to stand by my previous statement. Modern slaughter techniques, properly practiced, are less traumatic and cause less suffering.

Edit: BBC article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2977086.stm

The idea that severing the front of the neck immidiately causes the animal to lose conciousness is unsupportable, given that we know you can starve the brain for around four minutes in a human.

thus is the opinion of the uninformed.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

thus is the opinion of the uninformed.

If you have an insight to share, then do so.

[Hooahguy]

what the rabbi said in the article was true. Jewish law demands that the butcher use a very charp knife, and make ONE swift cut ona certain part of the neck that immediatly kills the animal. if you want proof, visit your local jewish slaughterhouse. trust me, when i visited a few months ago, its actually pretty interesting.

or read up in the Talmud, which goes into detail about this FOR THE EVERY REASON that the animal feels no pain. G-d knows best, right?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

what the rabbi said in the article was true. Jewish law demands that the butcher use a very charp knife, and make ONE swift cut ona certain part of the neck that immediatly kills the animal. if you want proof, visit your local jewish slaughterhouse. trust me, when i visited a few months ago, its actually pretty interesting.

or read up in the Talmud, which goes into detail about this FOR THE EVERY REASON that the animal feels no pain. G-d knows best, right?

I don't believe what the Rabbi said, simply because personal experience doesn't bear it out, and because it has been fairly well proved that even if you remove the head the animal/man can remain concious for several minutes. The appearence of unconciousness is usually caused by going into shock.

as to the Talmud, it's just words on the page, wasn't written by God, or any of his prophets (certainly not Leviticus) and is replete with errors and anachronisms.

[Hooahguy]

well, if you refuse to believe, then go on, believe your own fallacies.

and the thing about the talmud, G-d told us to listen to the Rabbis, soooooo......
equation:
g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

well, if you refuse to believe, then go on, believe your own fallacies.

and the thing about the talmud, G-d told us to listen to the Rabbis, soooooo......
equation:
g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

OR

Rabbis write that you have to listen to Rabbis, God not directly involved.

As I say, when the heart stops the human brain remains alive for four minutes, I see no reason to believe that is significantly different in Mammals, and given that they have done things like transplant extra brains into Dogs all the evidence points that way.

Against that you have a book written in an alphabet that wasn't even concieved when most of the events it purrports to relate took place.

We aren't going to aggree on this, but don't casually tell me just cutting their throat is so humane without any actual evidence.

[Hooahguy]

Against that you have a book written in an alphabet that wasn't even concieved when most of the events it purrports to relate took place.

please, do even a LITTLE bit of research.
the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.
but lets not digress.

We aren't going to aggree on this, but don't casually tell me just cutting their throat is so humane without any actual evidence.

i dont know, when that cow was slaughtered he looked pretty dead within 5 seconds, but ok, think what you want.
this is like debating for Israel: hitting up against a concrete wall.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

please, do even a LITTLE bit of research.
the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.
but lets not digress.

I think you mean Phonecian, Hebrew as a written language is only around 3,000 (1000 BC) years old (greek 2,800-600), the events of Exodus and the end of Genesis are dated around 2000-1400 BC. So the "historical" events are recorded in an alphabet that is at best 400 years younger than the events it records. That's old as good as the Iliad, which even at it's most optimistic is not considered to be a "history" but rather a legendary account.

Edit: Oh, and irrc, most copies of even the early books are written in the Aramaic script, which puts them to about 600 BC (after the Exile).

Edit 2: Hmmm, a little further digging seems to suggest there are apparently older copies. Oh well.

i dont know, when that cow was slaughtered he looked pretty dead within 5 seconds, but ok, think what you want.
this is like debating for Israel: hitting up against a concrete wall.

Oh, I grant, looks dead, and will be so but that doesn't mean it doesn't have another three minutes to go.

[Hax]

that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages

Well, that sounds pretty -- wait, what?

g-d tells us to listen to the rabbis ---> rabbis write the Talmud which is in depth commentary on the Mishnah, which details laws which are in the Torah---> we listen to the Rabbis and the Talmud.

That's circular logic, and is not a good way to discuss subjects. It's saying the Torah is right because it says it's right.

[Whacker]

Hooahguy, you need a healthy dose of Ego Check©.

Cutting an animal's throat is an excruciating and slow way to die. Your statement is patently false, there is absolutely no spot on an animals neck that will kill it "instantly", save for completely severing the spinal cord which even then is not instantaneous. The Wikipedia entry is exactly what my understanding is regarding kosher animal slaughter from reading other sources. In summary, the animal's throat is cut and that is all, it suffers and bleeds out. There is no "spinal cord severing".

Sorry. Kosher animal slaughter is barbaric, modern methods are far more humane.

[LittleGrizzly]

Im happy for people to kill any animal aslong as it's made useful (food, clothes)

Obviously you shouldn't take someone else's animal, but a wild one or one you own is perfectly reasonable...

I would be against killing endangered species...

I feel a little uneasy about eating our close relatives in the animal kingdom, and intelligent animals in general. Though i think thats because i see it as a waste of greater potential, that being said i wouldn't stop people eating our close relatives or intelligent animals...

IIRC pigs are quite clever by animals standards and i enjoy sausages and bacon (pork isn't too bad)

[Hooahguy]

Hooahguy, you need a healthy dose of Ego Check©.

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law.

[Beskar]

I think Hooahguy is just trolling everyone, it is the only logical conclusion. From when he mentions that in the Talmud that YHWH said to listen to the Rabbi's then clarifies it saying that the Talmud was written by the Rabbi's says enough.

[Whacker]

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law.

Clearly, I'm always open to learning and to the possibility of being wrong. So are you going to educate me here, or are you going to continue to post snide, condescending, and insulting remarks with no bearing to the argument or supporting facts?

[Furunculus]

[SIZE="2"]

As a starter... what about killing rabbits, and create jackets from them, and eat their meat...?

Thanks... opinion needed here...

i've snared and shot rabbits, and i have skinned and cooked rabbit. i'd like to tell you that i turned the skin into a fetching thong for Mrs Furunculus............................... but that would be a lie.

I like hunting rabbits. I like eating them too. One day i will make that rabbit skin thong.

[Hax]

and you need a healthy dose of understanding Jewish law.

Being a vegetarian, I'd rather see animals being killed without suffering (which should be possible) than living its final moments in fear of the knife that will end its life.

Also, I think the scientific world has generally established not all scriptures in the Torah/Bible are correct. Or are you going to suggest the world is 6,000 years old? Of course, you can keep believing in those "fallacies", if I might be free enough to use your own speech.

[miotas]

the Carlos Museum, located at Emory University, has a great exhibit on bible hebrew, plus has artifacts that proves that ancient hebrew was based off Polynesian languages. i suggest you travel to Atlanta to check it out.

Gah? Polynesian?

[Hooahguy]

Clearly, I'm always open to learning and to the possibility of being wrong. So are you going to educate me here, or are you going to continue to post snide, condescending, and insulting remarks with no bearing to the argument or supporting facts?

ok, ok.
one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.
and i still strongly disagree that slicing a deep cut in the neck is painless. as far as i know, arent the nerves for cows near the front? so a deep cut would slice the nerves, causing little pain. but wouldnt a nail gun or whatever "modern" methods are used leave the nerves intact?

oh, sorry for pointing out how oblivious you are to Jewish law, and sorry for the pain i caused you.

[Hooahguy]

Gah? Polynesian?

yaya, i know a mistake. sorry bout that.

[Hax]

one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.

Try abstaining from meat altogether. It's the easiest way to not eat blood.

[Hooahguy]

Try abstaining from meat altogether. It's the easiest way to not eat blood.

well, considering cows and sheep and other animals were part of sacrifices....

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

ok, ok.
one of the main reasons why we cut across the neck is because it drains blood quickly. anyone who knows the slightest bit about Jewish dietary laws knows that there can be no blood in our meat, hence the heavy salting process.
and i still strongly disagree that slicing a deep cut in the neck is painless. as far as i know, arent the nerves for cows near the front? so a deep cut would slice the nerves, causing little pain. but wouldnt a nail gun or whatever "modern" methods are used leave the nerves intact?

oh, sorry for pointing out how oblivious you are to Jewish law, and sorry for the pain i caused you.

The bolt gun is used on the head not the neck. It turns the animal's brain to mush, then the throat is cut to drain the blood.

You keep saying we're oblivious to Jewish Law but haven't shown where we contradict it. We say you cut it's throat, you say you cut it's throat.

Where's the contradiction.

[Hax]

Hooahguy, I don't think you can call Whacker oblivious. You are Jewish yourself, and as such cannot look at ritual animal slaughter in a completely neutral way. Whacker, however, can.

You are talking from a religious point of view, stating that the Torah is infallible. I'm afraid that following such logic in a modern society is virtually impossible, unless you enclose yourself in a society which shares the same point of view as yourself.

[Hooahguy]

I think Hooahguy is just trolling everyone, it is the only logical conclusion. From when he mentions that in the Talmud that YHWH said to listen to the Rabbi's then clarifies it saying that the Talmud was written by the Rabbi's says enough.

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.
keep talking Beskar, you crack me up.

sorry for my snide remarks. i just hate people who dont know a thing about judasim but think they do.

[Hooahguy]

You keep saying we're oblivious to Jewish Law but haven't shown where we contradict it. We say you cut it's throat, you say you cut it's throat.

Where's the contradiction.

the contradiction: you say that ritual slaughter is horrible, the torah thinks otherwise.

[LittleGrizzly]

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.

If you can provide conclusive evidence that God said anything anywhere you'll help solve a hell of a lot of arguments...

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.
keep talking Beskar, you crack me up.

sorry for my snide remarks. i just hate people who dont know a thing about judasim but think they do.

I have very little time for people who simply quote their Holy Book in an attempt to avoid an arguement. Particually the Holy Book you adhere to, replete as it is with copy errors, inconsistancies, blatently welding together of seperate texts, etc.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

the contradiction: you say that ritual slaughter is horrible, the torah thinks otherwise.

I say it causes suffering, you have provided no evidence to the contrary.

[Hax]

As I said, this discussion is pointless. Hooahguy believes in something which cannot be proven, and as such, this discussion cannot go any way except to the point of merciless trolling.

[Hooahguy]

I have very little time for people who simply quote their Holy Book in an attempt to avoid an arguement. Particually the Holy Book you adhere to, replete as it is with copy errors, inconsistancies, blatently welding together of seperate texts, etc.

and i have very little time for people who find problems with a law found in a holy book but denies the fact that its a holy book at all.

so youre saying that G-d never said to listen to the Rabbis.

If you can provide conclusive evidence that God said anything anywhere you'll help solves a hell of a lot of arguments...

ech, this is useless. waste of my time. pardon me while i go and take my anger out on some pixilated terrorists.