Tournament rules brainstorming thread

[AussieGiant]

Ok I've wikied.

It's called MERP.

Extract from combat system.

"The rules system of the game is a streamlined version of I.C.E.'s generic fantasy RPG, Rolemaster.

Characters possess Attributes and Skills rated between 0 and 100. Skills can be modified to a rating above or below these limits (i.e. under 0 or over 100). An attack roll consists of a percentile roll, to which the attacker's skill rating and appropriate attribute rating are added and the defender's dodge rating is subtracted. The result is compared to the defender's armor type and looked up on a table to determine success or failure. A separate critical table is used if the initial chart result called for it."

[_Tristan_]

Ok I've wikied.

It's called MERP.

Extract from combat system.

"The rules system of the game is a streamlined version of I.C.E.'s generic fantasy RPG, Rolemaster.

Characters possess Attributes and Skills rated between 0 and 100. Skills can be modified to a rating above or below these limits (i.e. under 0 or over 100). An attack roll consists of a percentile roll, to which the attacker's skill rating and appropriate attribute rating are added and the defender's dodge rating is subtracted. The result is compared to the defender's armor type and looked up on a table to determine success or failure. A separate critical table is used if the initial chart result called for it."

The problem with this ruleset is how do we determine the corresponding attributes, ie attack skill, dodge skill, armour type and so on, how do we tie it to M2TW traits and ancillaries ?

I think YLC and Cecil are on the right path. All that is needed is for one or two players to fully understand how the duels are to be played out. We (as in the player-base) do not have to know the exact components leading to our duel value.

Do you truly think that any duellist would analyse his chances of success to the last iota and do the same about his adversary ?

I personally do not think so. It was a "spur of the moment"-thing and you either drew your sword (or mounted your horse) or withdrew in shame.

Hence I think the exact mechanics of the dueling system should be devised out of sight in concordance with Zim and with us players kept out of the loop.

I would hate to be the target of a declaration of duel simply because the other party knew that he had overwhelmeing odds in his favour, even before throwing the gauntlet.

Thoughts ?

[TinCow]

Another alternative is to use the dueling system that Sigurd developed for his Midgard mafia games. Andres and Reenk Roink have both used derivatives of this system (I think) for their own mafia games with dueling. It might be worth looking into what they did, since that method seems to work well in the gameroom.

[ULC]

Another alternative is to use the dueling system that Sigurd developed for his Midgard mafia games. Andres and Reenk Roink have both used derivatives of this system (I think) for their own mafia games with dueling. It might be worth looking into what they did, since that method seems to work well in the gameroom.

Mine is based off of that, with the addition of many parts from M2TW, such as experience and traits. The system handles the same otherwise.



BTW, not to be a bother, but do you have any suggestions as to how to balance the positive traits of my system, and how traits should be acquired? As it stand right now, how each character gets the duel traits is a bit arbitary.

[_Tristan_]

I rather liked the system devised by Cecil from the traits and ancillaries and I can imagine creating some kind of Excel spreadsheet (I would even volunteer to do it) listing the different bonuses/maluses and checking the boxes for the avatars that got tangled in a duel, thus giving us quickly the valour of each avatar.

A simple system would then be to roll a single D20 and add the value of each contender. The highest score winning the round.

The fight could be fought in as many rounds as the avatars have HPs, the first to fall to 0 will be considered to ask for mercy.

Simple rules could be added for criticals much like in the way AD&D deals with them, either giving instant success or instant failure and provinding bonuses/maluses for the next round(s).

[Ramses II CP]

I think the mechnics need to be kept behind the scenes to prevent overcalculation, and having a reasonably random risk will aid that as well. I think players may evolve a system of compensation for lost duels and 'first blood' duels that avoids death. I applaud the idea.

Not much time to think or write at the moment, but I definitely want a working and used system like this in the game. In fact it might be a good idea for us to hold a tournament every so often with a prize and a smaller risk of death just to spark some conflict.

[Cecil XIX]

In fact it might be a good idea for us to hold a tournament every so often with a prize and a smaller risk of death just to spark some conflict.

Great idea! The King could tournaments where even the lowliest RGB could win the hand of the princess!

[ULC]

Great idea! The King could tournaments where even the lowliest RGB could win the hand of the princess!

Considering I am the designer though, I will feel left out - I'll have the best idea of whom not to pick on, and understand my overall percentage for defeating someone.

In fact, such would be the fate of anyone who designs it, although my system seems to have significant support so far.

[Zim]

I definately would prefer not to hold the game up for any but the most eventful of duels (maybe if a Prince and King were fighting to the death over who rules...maybe. ).

Beyond that as long as the combatants agree I suppose any ruleset would work. My instinct would actually be to make it simpler than the rules proposed thus far but I understand why people would like the immersion of having many modifiers, etc.

I do like Econ's system for champions.

One important thing to remember is that if KOTF were a video game, Dueling would be one of the minigames. I'd hate to see hours and hours of thought and planning go into something that may or may not be used often.

[ULC]

I definately would prefer not to hold the game up for any but the most eventful of duels (maybe if a Prince and King were fighting to the death over who rules...maybe. ).

Exactly - duels need not take longer then 4 hours at maximum to finish.

Beyond that as long as the combatants agree I suppose any ruleset would work. My instinct would actually be to make it simpler than the rules proposed thus far but I understand why people would like the immersion of having many modifiers, etc.

The immersion isn't for the traits, so much as it is trying to translate across say, an obvious fight between Nobles, with one who is a frontline fighter and the other is a bumbling, clumsy accountant.

The more you reduce the systems variables, the less likely your going to get reasonable results - the same happens if you make it to complex. A middle ground is what must be found.

I do like Econ's system for champions.

One important thing to remember is that if KOTF were a video game, Dueling would be one of the minigames. I'd hate to see hours and hours of thought and planning go into something that may or may not be used often.

Of course, but it could also become a major tool for "diplomacy". It has many fun and exciting applications as well beyond the scope of this game....*wanders off into the game room*

[Zim]

Alright, I think after some proliferation of new issues and threads we're narrowing down on a final few issues before starting the game. I'd like to get this onyou guys get any final edits to your proposals ready within, say two days? Then I'll pick one.

Whatever system we use, I think the referee should be me, TheFlax, or someone designated by one of us (and not the player of a character in the duel).

[Ibn-Khaldun]

I'm willing to be a referee in those duels. I promise I'll be neutral...

[econ21]

OK, consolidating three posts, here are the rules I propose for duels.

DUELLING RULES

Player stats

All players have three duelling stats:

Attacks: This is determined by the valour (experience) of your bodyguard unit (breakpoints are those used in game to affect unit attack and defence stats):
0-1 valour: 1 attack
2-3 valour: 2 attacks
4-6 valour: 3 attacks
7+ valour: 4 attacks
It determines how many six sided dice you get to roll each round of the duel.

Fight Value This is equal to 50 plus or minus modifiers for traits, retinue and duelling success. It determines who wins a combat round if the die are tied. Fight values are capped at 0 and 100.

Hit points: all players have 8 hit points plus or minus hit point adjustments from their traits.
This determines how much damage you can take before being knocked out (you are knocked out when you reach 0 hit points). Hit points are capped at 1 and 16 (as in the game)

The GM will keep a public record of each player's duelling stats, updating it every Council session or if the player is involved in a duel. Updated stats for participants will be known before duels are accepted. Although the GM will do his best, it is the responsibility of each player to check their duelling stats prior to a duel. If they are erroneously set and not corrected before the duel, the duel will be resolved with the erroneous stats - not refought or negated afterwards.

Duel mechanics

One player challenges another to a duel. This is then resolved by Zim or someone he delegates as referee, at a time and pace of his chosing. Ideally, both challengers and referee are online simultaneously so it can be quickly resolved within an hour or so.

The challenging player either challenges a player to a regular duel (an "honour duel") or to a "duel to the death". Duels require mutual consent. Duels to the death have a special extra rule detailed later.

A duel consists of one or more rounds of combat and lasts until one player has zero hit points or concedes.

Each round of combat, a player strikes high, medium or low. He communicates this in secret to the referee. Strikes are simultaneous. This part of the duel is rock-paper-scissors. High beats medium, medium beats low, low beats high. A player whose strike beats his rival has the advantage in the combat round.

The referee then rolls a number of dice for each player equal to their attacks. Plus one is added to all a player's die rolls if the player has the advantage over their rival. However, modified die rolls can never exceed 6. (So rolling a 6 and having the advantage still just gives you a 6).

The player with the highest modified die roll wins the combat. If both players have the same highest modified die roll, then the one with the highest fight value wins. If both die rolls and fight values are tied, the umpire randomly decides the winner (50:50 chance).

The winner of a round does 2D4 (roll two four sided dice and total) hit points of damage to the loser.

Edit: Each round, when choosing high/medium/low, a player may also specify that they are "holding back". This means they get minus one to all die rolls (with a 1 remaining a 1) but only do 1D4 damage if they win the round.

Consequences of duels

The victor of a duel gains 1 fight value and the loser - if surviving - loses 1 fight value. These will be tallied by the umpire over the game and require no changing of traits.

In honour duels, there is a risk of accidental death. If the damage dealt exceeds a players hit points at the start of a round by three and the attacker rolls a double, the loser dies.

In duels to the death, when the loser yields or reaches zero hit points, the victor has a choice.

Killing the loser gains them +1 dread (change battle dread, or - if maxxed out - strategy dread)

Sparing the loser gains them +1 chivalry (change battle chivalry, or - if maxxed out - strategy chivalry).

Champions:

Duels start when one player (the challenger) challenges another (the defender). Initially, the challenger must issue a personal challenge - they cannot use a champion unless the defender does. A defender can nominate a champion to fight in his stead. If the defender nominates a champion, then the challenger is free to withdraw the challenge or nominate their own champion.

All fights involving a champion are honour duels - not ones to the death - although "accidental" death is still possible.

A champion may be an NPC or a player who owes allegiance to the player they are championing. Players who fight as champions fight in just the same way as other players.

NPC Champion stats:

NPC champions are drawn from bodyguard units. For those without vassals, the relevant unit is just their own bodyguard. Those with vassals may draw a champion from their vassals. Kings and Princes may choose any bodyguard unit in the kingdom to draw their champion from (exception - not the bodyguard of the player challenging them; King gets first pick if challenged by Prince).

There are two kinds of NPC champions - regular (anonymous) and retinue champions.

Regular champion stats are:

Valour: the valour of the bodyguard they are drawn from.

Fight value: 50

Hit points: 7

Retinue champions:

Unique:

Arnold von Winkelried
Bertrand du Guesclin
Chevalier de Bayard
Gerard de Ridefort
Roger de Moulins

These legendary NPCs have 12 hitpoints and fight values of 65

Other retinue champions have 8 hit points and 50 fight value unless stated otherwise.

Naïve Knight: 52 FV
Shieldbearer 10 hit points
Swordbearer 51 FV; 9 hit points
Veteran warrior: 53 FV
Bodyguard 52 FV
Notorious berserker: 53 FV
Dread knight: 54 FV
Chivalrous knight : 54 FV
Lancebearer 52 FV
Templar/hospitaller knight: 53 FV

Regular champions cannot be killed.
Retinue champions are removed from the relevant character if accidentally killed.
Champions do not gain or lose FV from duelling (this is a change from discussion to avoid book keeping)

Fight value modifiers

Traits that increase fight values:

Generals receive + fight value for each rank in the following traits (max ranks given):
-Brave 5
-Beserker 3
-GoodCavalryGeneral 3
-TourneyKnight 5
-HorseRacer 3

Traits that reduce fight values:

Generals receive - fight value for each rank in the following traits (max ranks given):
-Drink 6
-Coward 4
-BadCavalryGeneral 3
-Insane 3
-Deranged 3
-Haemophobic 3
-Cursed 4
-StrickenSilly 3
-StrickenSerious 3
-TooOldToFight 1
-Senile 3

Retinue that raise fight value (by amount indicated):
Black Stallion +3
Trusty Steed +2
Seal of Solomon +2

Commentary on traits
I have tried to keep the list of relevant traits short and restricted to those that are linked to physical prowess on the KISS principle. Perhaps the only exception are those relevant to cavalry command/horses, as I think a good cavalry commander should be useful on a horse and I think the duels probably start with a joust (although it does not seem worth modelling that explicitly).

Modifiers to hit points

Traits that affect hit points - ranks in trait and max hp given
-Hypochndriac 3 - 6 hp
-HaleAndHearty 3 +6 hp
-Battlescarred 4 +8 hps

Retinue that affect hit points:
Alchemist +2 hp
Paracelsus +4 hp
Fine armour +4 hp
Ornamental armour -2 hp
Iron Crown of Lombardy +1 hp

NOT retinue characters who would give their HP effects by fighting alongside the character- e.g. shieldbearer,. swordbearer, Arnold von Winkelried etc (it’s a duel, not a threesome)

Example duel, modified taken from YLCs earlier one. Full credit to YLC for both the example and much of the proposed mechanics.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In the following fight, we have two knights: Cecil and Flax. They are fighting over the hand of a woman. Cecil challenges Flax, but only to a regular duel - he wishes to see honour satisfied, not duel to the death.

Knight Cecil has 8 HP, as dictated by his avatar, and 6 valor (3 silver chevrons), which would give him 3 dice per phase. His fight value is 53, due to 3 ranks in the brave trait.

Knight Flax has 10 HP, as dictated by his avatar, Fine Armor, and Hypochondria, with 3 valor, giving him 2 dice per phase. His fight value is 52, thanks to his trusty steed.

Knight Cecil chooses his strike stance type - Mid.

Knight Flax chooses his stance type - Low

Knight Cecil rolls 4, 1, and 5, and each die gets +1 due to his superior stance, giving him rolls of 5, 2, and 6

Knight Flax rolls a 4 and 3 - not enough to beat either of Knight Cecil scores.

Knight Flax loses the combat. Knight Cecil rolls for 2D4 damage and gets a double 4 and a 2. So Flax loses 6 HP.

Flax is wounded with only 4 hit points remaining. Knight Cecil pauses and asks Flax to yield. He will not.

A second round of combat begins. Knight Flax rolls a 6 and 3, this time with Mid as his stance.

Knight Cecil defends with 4, 6 and 1 with his stance set to High, but although he has the advantage, he has already rolled a 6 and this cannot be raised further.

Since both knights are tied with a highest role of 6, the winner of the round is decided by fight values. Knight Cecil has the highest fight value and wins the round.

He rolls a double 4 for damage. Disaster! This is a double roll and exceeds Flax’s remaining hit points by more than three. The winning blow has struck too deep and Flax falls to the ground mortally wounded.

Knight Cecil cries “I did not mean for this to happen!”

[AussieGiant]

My lord.

I hope someone challenges someone.