Diplomacy is entirely broken

[Julius_Nepos]

I haven't played ETW since the new patches came out and at the moment I can't see any good reason to go back. This has been quite disappointing to me because the game in its 1.0 state still had great potential, some of which I think has been diminished by the recent patches. I do find it fascinating though how the changes have so polarized opinion. Generally the two camps either say the game is perfect or its an abomination, with very little in between. Personally I don't like the direction the AI is going, that is incredible stupidity mixed with dizzying levels of aggression. Therefore I've put the game aside in the hopes that someday patches or mods can fix things. It's a forlorn hope, but it's more than nothing.

What I'm wondering is how dumb is the ETW AI? Is it a step BACK from RTW/M2TW? If comparing the release 1.0 versions of all three, was ETW ahead of the game? I don't really remember all that much from the past releases other than RTW was called Rome: Total Bribery for a time, and M2TW had the passive AI bug/no naval invasions problem. I guess I want to make sure I'm not unfairly judging this new title, or looking at the past iterations through rose colored glasses. Last thing I want to do is give the game LESS credit than what it currently deserves.

[Zenicetus]

What I'm wondering is how dumb is the ETW AI? Is it a step BACK from RTW/M2TW?

The impression I get, is that on the diplomatic level it's basically the same AI quality as RTW/M2TW (i.e. fairly minimal), but it's now being asked to deal with a more complicated game. Part of that is the way the world is already well-developed across multiple theaters, with colonies scattered about, just ready to start border disputes outside the core faction home. There are fewer neutral buffer zones between major powers like we had in the earlier games. And with all these factions, there are so many overlapping "gotta have it" territories they're trying to occupy, as a hardcoded AI script.

I think the game would have been better if it had a smaller number of major powers, and the smaller factions were dumb pushovers that didn't engage in diplomacy, basically like the un-allied rebel factions that start out as buffers between nations in RTW and M2TW. Giving those minor states the ability to form alliances and protectorate status really complicates the game. But it's also just the sheer number of main factions.

Of course, if they had reduced the game down to just 4 or 5 main factions to streamline the diplomacy and make it easier for the AI to handle, then everyone who didn't get their favorite nation picked would have screamed bloody murder. Remember all those hot-tempered "what factions should be playable?" threads before the final game features were announced? This may be a case where the player community shot itself in the foot, by asking for so many playable factions.

Or, it could just be that the devs wanted to go in that direction anyway, then decided the AI couldn't really handle the complexity, so they'd fall back on random (or at least frequent) DOW's supported by artificial cash infusions to make the game "challenging."

P.S. I wouldn't still play this game occasionally, or post here, if I didn't think the series had so much potential. And to be honest, because there is nothing else out there like this game series.

[Sheogorath]

The problem with 'dumb diplomacy' in ETW is that trade features so heavily. States like the UP, with very small starting provinces and very minimal tax income, RELY in trade. While it is easy to simply rush Paris, it feels cheesy and like you're breaking some rule. The Netherlands should NOT be able to conquer France in two turns. And then had it over to Savoy because they didn't want it.

I even offered it to Spain in exchange for a peace treaty. Spain told me to bugger off. Ten turns later I'd taken over all of their new world colonies, destroyed their fleets, annihilated their armies and had a full stack set to besiege Madrid. I offered peace and Spain shot back saying "Give us 2800 gold."

Now, that's not a large amount, but the sheer cheek of it made me angry enough that I took over Madrid, destroyed all the buildings and gave it to Morocco.

[Julius_Nepos]

One of the earliest games I played in ETW was as Austria. This was back before the patches came through and I recall that right away I was basically at war with Prussia, Poland, Venice and the Ottoman Empire. One thing I found was that no matter how many territories I took from Poland, territories I did not want, they would never take them back in a peace deal or in exchange for Peace. All I wanted was West Prussia, but instead I had take over practically all of Poland to end the war, and even then they re-declared war on me a few times later on before finally giving it up and being annihilated totally. From what I'm hearing this situation has actually gotten worse with the new patches. And this does very much remind me of RTW.

I also agree the game is now far too complex for the Campaign AI, and so its faults are even more apparent now than ever before. I don't seem to be the typical TW player though, I hear alot of guys over at TWCenter like how things are. I have a hard time understanding that since there's no real depth to the game at all other than total war, all the time. I think this is one time where knowing alot about history is interfering with my ability to enjoy the game. I know this is the era of the balance of power, so the way the game plays is SO far off from what happened in reality I just can't accept it without reservation. I wish this wasn't so, let me tell you.

[Fisherking]

I too am disappointed in some of the changes made since 1.0.

This game was advertised to have had different national personalities for the factions and even the generals.

As it is at least since 1.2 the Campaign AI is just that, one AI for everyone and a rabid one at that.

Every campaign turns into world domination simply because leaving enemies on every border is not desirable and they all refuse to make peace. The AI once made peace when it was losing, it just wouldn’t make peace with other AI factions. Now it will only make peace if it is harmful to the player (unreliable ally penalty).

The thing is, the more we complain about the AI, the worse it seems to get!

I am beginning to think it is deliberate.

If it was decent before (1.0) then making slight adjustments should not be that difficult. In stead we get over the top changes almost every time.

It is as if they are saying; okay you don’t like it this way, you are not going to like it that way either! Take this!

[Lemur]

Since we did all of our fireworks and festivizing yesterday, I spent a little quality time with the Ottomans today. I bribed Russia to keep them out of my hair at first, since the early turns as Ottoman are sheer hell.

Later, when I had my economy under control and those nifty fez-wearing dudes as my line infantry, Russia went all Black Knight on me. Once again, no matter how many armies of theirs I decimated, no matter how many provinces I took away from them, they would accept no terms for peace. Just freakin' irritating. Eventually I took Moscow just to show those stiff-necked Russkies how the big dogs play. ('Tis but a scratch!, they probably yelled.)

CA needs to re-work the AI so it isn't so suicidal. Peace offerings from larger, stronger, higher-teched enemies should be accepted. With alacrity.

[Zarky]

What I'm starting to think is that major nations are way more suicidal than minors, as Ottomans I captured Persia and Azerbaizan from Persia, then got peace offering them Azerbaizan and they accepted (offered mainly because they had 10 or so stacks of two all over my new regions). 3 Turns later I of course backstabbed them and finished them.
That's by far the easiest peace AI has accepted in 1.3 at least for me. What caught my attention in that peace was that I wasn't at war with anyone else and they were largish minor nation. Could it be that major nations are too proud to admit defeat, and that if you at war with anyone else (let's say Hurons and Cherokee but share no border with them) they think that together they can win you.