Surprisingly Good and Bad Units 1.2 Edition

[jerby]

Okay, Maybe I should elaborate on my choice, before people misunderstand me.

Rhompaiaporoi kill units, for sure. Put th em to good use and they shred phalangites, put them on walls and you almost get an insta-win. They're indeed elite.
However, whener I have one or two units in my campaigning army (currently heading towards Antiochia, whatever it's called) They always seem to get a lot more deaths than the other flanking infantry.
It's not a weird thing, offcourse, my peltastai makedonikoi or hypaspistai are tanks with all that armor... but after two three big battles my unit is practically gone...
So, all in all, for the money they cost, I just don't find them that much better than the Agrianikoi

[DaciaJC]

Ah, I understand. In fact, I've experienced your situation to some degree myself. But if we compare the numbers...

;451
type             dacian infantry rhompharoi thorakitai
dictionary       dacian_infantry_rhompharoi_thorakitai     ; Thraikioi Rhomphaiaphoroi
category         infantry
class            heavy
voice_type       Light_1
soldier          dacian_infantry_rhompharoi_thorakitai, 30, 0, 1.18
mount_effect     elephant -1
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, hardy
formation        1.6, 1.4, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         11, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, blade, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.285
stat_pri_attr    ap
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 0 ,0.1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  12, 11, 1, metal
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        4
stat_ground      0, 0, -2, -2
stat_mental      15, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 40
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 2899, 725, 100, 25, 2899
ownership        gauls, scythia, slave, britons, germans, romans_julii, romans_brutii, romans_scipii, numidia, macedon, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, spain, seleucid, dacia, pontus, parthia, armenia, saba

;356
type             hellenistic infantry agrianaipelekephoroi
dictionary       hellenistic_infantry_agrianaipelekephoroi      ; Agrianikoi Pelekephoroi
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Light_1
soldier          hellenistic_infantry_agrianaipelekephoroi_asturainaxemen, 40, 0, 1.15
officer          ebofficer_hellenic_officer
attributes       sea_faring, hide_improved_forest, can_sap, very_hardy, hide_long_grass
formation        1.2, 1.6, 2.4, 3.2, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         6, 8, javelin, 47.3, 2, thrown, simple, piercing, spear, 10 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown
stat_sec         9, 8, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, axe, 0 ,0.165
stat_sec_attr    ap
stat_pri_armour  9, 10, 3, flesh
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        2
stat_ground      0, 0, 1, 0
stat_mental      15, impetuous, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 1833, 458, 65, 623, 1833
ownership        macedon, thrace

The Rhomphaiaphoroi have 12 armor, 11 defense skill, and 1 shield.

The Agrianikoi have 9 armor, 10 defense skill, and 3 shield.

The Rhomphaiaphoroi should theoretically take fewer casualties in combat... except in the case when they are taking missile fire from the front, in which case the Agrianikoi would fare better.

So you may say that Rhomps. simply aren't worth it in terms of money when they need retraining so often... I tend to look more at the effectiveness of the unit in question. Yes, the Agrianikoi may indeed take fewer casualties overall, but I am certain that they did not kill nearly as many enemies as the Rhomphaiaphoroi, and so their kill/death ratio (the biggest thing I factor into a unit's "effectiveness") is lesser than that of the Rhomps.

[antisocialmunky]

The super high-end assault infantry isn't really worth it all that much. Usually throwaway AP units do equally well.

[Cute Wolf]

The super high-end assault infantry isn't really worth it all that much. Usually throwaway AP units do equally well.

Throwaway assault corps are waste in sieges, as they will become instant victim against towers. BTW, Romphaiakoi aren't "surprisingly good" because they are certain elite troops.

[athanaric]

Throwaway assault corps are waste in sieges, as they will become instant victim against towers. BTW, Romphaiakoi aren't "surprisingly good" because they are certain elite troops.

Plus, don't underestimate the fun factor. Also, elite assault troops (specifically Rhomphaiaphoroi, Kluddargos, and Sreni Pattya Yoddaha) are very useful against cataphracts, especially the insanely armoured Baktrian, Hai, and Pahlavân FMs.

[paramedicguyer]

Cohors Imperatoria...nuff said.

[antisocialmunky]

Throwaway assault corps are waste in sieges, as they will become instant victim against towers. BTW, Romphaiakoi aren't "surprisingly good" because they are certain elite troops.

Those elite assault infantries still get mowed down by tower and archer fire. I use heavily armored normal guys for that job, Why have 1 when you can have 2 and spend an extra turn starving out the garrison by building an extra tower?

[Watchman]

...you mean arrows actually *work* on the kinds of troops the term "fancy elite assault units" mainly covers...?

[antisocialmunky]

If you're talking about the dudes with big two handers, yes.

[mountaingoat]

[DaciaJC]

If you're talking about the dudes with big two handers, yes.

I wouldn't describe those units as "assault troops". No, always use them to flank. Heavily-armored elites, such as Peltastai Makedonikoi, Solduros, etc. are better suited to attacking walls (as I believe you mentioned).

[antisocialmunky]

I've also seen those guys tear into phalanxes from the front and win if the phalanx spread out a little bit. Fairly impressive.

[John the Mad]

I just got Pedites Extrondarii ,in my current game,and i still prefer Samnicti hastati

[Rahwana]

Surprisingly good = Teceitos
These troops are capable to rip apart my legionaries but if I using them, I also rip through those pesky hoplite and phalanxes. Relatively cheap, and capable to stand against better equipped troops.

Surprisingly bad = Pezoi Brettoi
These Brutus infantry is too exspensive and many fell victim against hoplites. Pretty bad, since heavy infantry swordsmen should beat spearmen. Hastati samnitici and pedites extraordinarii are more exspensive, but they bring statisfied results.

[Ludens]

These Brutus infantry is too exspensive and many fell victim against hoplites. Pretty bad, since heavy infantry swordsmen should beat spearmen.

First of all, Pezoi Brettioi are not truly heavy infantry, more medium infantry. Hoplites are far more heavily armoured. Secondly, the "swords beat spears"-argument is nonsense. We had the discussion some time back on the forum and, although not everyone agreed, the team's position is that even when all other circumstances were equal, swordsmen did not automatically beat spearmen.

[athanaric]

First of all, Pezoi Brettioi are not truly heavy infantry, more medium infantry. Hoplites are far more heavily armoured.

Interestingly, Pezoi Brettioi are classified as "light infantry" within the game. So that probably further decreases their ability to go toe to toe with heavies.
If somebody wants units that can beat Hoplites head on, I'd suggest Tekastos. Or Worgozez - probably the single best unit in the game vs. Hoplites (except perhaps the two-handed elite guys).

[Rahwana]

Interestingly, Pezoi Brettioi are classified as "light infantry" within the game. So that probably further decreases their ability to go toe to toe with heavies.
If somebody wants units that can beat Hoplites head on, I'd suggest Tekastos. Or Worgozez - probably the single best unit in the game vs. Hoplites (except perhaps the two-handed elite guys).

Well, I know that those Pezoi Brettioi are light infantry, very much same as hastati, but the latter are capable to take down hoplite single handedly.

[Watchman]

For some reason their defense statline is also utter crap and direly needs fixing. This is what the meaningful bits should look like in the EDU:

;533
type             italic infantry bruttian
dictionary       italic_infantry_bruttian      ; Bruttian Infantry
category         infantry
class            light
voice_type       Heavy_1
soldier          roman_infantry_hastatiearly, 40, 0, 1.18, 0.25
mount_effect 	 chariot +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, hardy, mercenary_unit
formation        1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health      1, 1
stat_pri         4, 4, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 15 ,1
stat_pri_attr    prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec         10, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, slashing, sword, 0 ,0.13
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  9, 9, 3, flesh
...
stat_cost        1, 1275, 319, 50, 70, 1275
...

[Ludens]

Interestingly, Pezoi Brettioi are classified as "light infantry" within the game. So that probably further decreases their ability to go toe to toe with heavies.

The "light" and "heavy" classifications do not affect unit abilities. They are tags for the A.I. to determine its recruitment and positioning.

For some reason their defense statline is also utter crap and direly needs fixing. This is what the meaningful bits should look like in the EDU:

Thanks for the fix!

[antisocialmunky]

Yeah, thanks. Also, I'm not sure why anyone would prefer Samnite Spearmen to the Pedites Extraordinarii. They are different units. One is a heavy assault unit and the other is a good fast spearman.

[Watchman]

The "light" and "heavy" classifications do not affect unit abilities. They are tags for the A.I. to determine its recruitment and positioning.

Also, IIRC the "class" of many Italic and Roman units was slightly counter-intuitive in order to convince the tactical AI to form decent triplex acies deployements.

[APX]

During my new Getai campaign I have new opinions on some units.

Surprisingly good: Komatai, Drapanai, Komatai Epilektoi, the Getai bodyguard unit, and Skuda Baexdzhyntae.

Surprisingly bad: Boii Cingetos, Getikoi Stratiotai, and Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai.

Refer here.

[WinsingtonIII]

During my new Getai campaign I have new opinions on some units.

Surprisingly good: Komatai, Drapanai, Komatai Epilektoi, the Getai bodyguard unit, and Skuda Baexdzhyntae.

Surprisingly bad: Boii Cingetos, Getikoi Stratiotai, and Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai.

Refer here.

What's so surprisingly bad about the Dacian light and heavy phalanxes? They're some of the few units in your armies early on that have enough armor to not be shot to death by missiles, and as long as you put them in guard mode they can easily hold true phalanxes, hoplites, or any other heavy line infantry that's bothering you from the front while you flank them, which is a useful role to have. Admittedly, they aren't the best heavy spearmen, but are they are good as long as they are used only for what they are meant for. That being said, I would never use more than 4 units (and usually more like 2) of this type in a Getai army because you have so many other troops that are great in many different roles, whereas the phalanxes are more limited in terms of versatility.

[antisocialmunky]

Well, if you're accustomed to playing with hoplites, those Getai Phalanxes function much like them and even have the high density. The only different is you have ridiculous AP on your secondary sword.

[Watchman]

No you don't.

[DaciaJC]

The only different is you have ridiculous AP on your secondary sword.

No, the Getic phalanxes don't have AP. Their secondary weapon, like the Komatai, is the sica, which isn't AP.

That doesn't make them any less *awesome*, though. They are your best line infantry, well able to hold anything attacking from the front in place so that you can flank with Drapanai and the like.

And to disagree with WinsingtonIII here: I think that the Komatai Thorakitai Stratiotai (Dacian Heavy Phalanx) is among the best heavy spearmen units available.

And as for the Boii Cingetos: admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but I might have an idea on how you (APX) tried to employ them. They are not meant to be thrown headlong into the frontal assault. With only 7 armor, they are prone to death by missiles. Rather, use them to flank the enemy.

[APX]

And as for the Boii Cingetos: admittedly, I haven't used them yet, but I might have an idea on how you (APX) tried to employ them. They are not meant to be thrown headlong into the frontal assault. With only 7 armor, they are prone to death by missiles. Rather, use them to flank the enemy.

I had about 5 units of them and 2 slingers in the province Scorcouw while it was being besieged by KH. The battle was a slaughter. Their Hoplitai Haploi and Hellenic skirmishers easily killed my Boii Cingetos, even though my Boii Cingetos had two experience.


I'll admit to not having much experience with the Dacian light and heavy phalanx. I've only used them in a couple of battles so far, and each time I have tried to use them as line troops troops they are outdone by Drapanai or Komatai.

[Andy1984]

I just got Pedites Extrondarii ,in my current game,and i still prefer Samnicti hastati

I find hastati samnitici to be expensive compared to principes and hastati. Cost/quality-seen, I still prefer the pedites extraordinarii over the hastati samnitici. The latter may be fast, have a better stamina and have cool-looking armor. But the former has (1) a bigger shield, (2) a higher missile attack, (3) have the cool and deadly kopiis-sword, (4) have more armor and a decent morale. Not too mention the fact they look even cooler than these overpriced hastati samnitici.

My reliance upon these pedites (and other roman units) instead of hastati samnitici may have to do something with the fact I don't really find any use for mobile light spearmen. If you have to take out heavy cavalry, I rely on cheaper principes (before and after camillian reforms) or on decent triarii. Hastati samnitici, neither cheap nor heavy, would be my very, very last choice.

[satalexton]

i had bad run-ins when using them too, galatian shortswordmen are so much better than them.

[DaciaJC]

I had about 5 units of them and 2 slingers in the province Scorcouw while it was being besieged by KH. The battle was a slaughter. Their Hoplitai Haploi and Hellenic skirmishers easily killed my Boii Cingetos, even though my Boii Cingetos had two experience.

I suppose the skirmishers took a big chunk out of their numbers. Plus, the Boii Cingetos aren't at their best in street battles, where they are forced to attack the enemy from the front. I wouldn't discount any unit on the basis of one battle.

I'll admit to not having much experience with the Dacian light and heavy phalanx. I've only used them in a couple of battles so far, and each time I have tried to use them as line troops troops they are outdone by Drapanai or Komatai.

Certainly, Drapanai, and possibly Komatai, will get more kills than the phalanxes. They'll also get ripped to pieces by missiles, i.e. arrows/stones and the javelins that often precede an enemy charge. The phalanxes can absorb those missiles quite nicely, owing to their substantial armor, and keep the enemy engaged while you swing around with those Drapanai and other flankers to inflict massive damage.